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Evening Legal Briefs

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39 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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39. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 17, 2012, 08:32 Mr. Tact
 
Prez wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 16:24:
Mail doesn't matter. Making prisons into tightly run labor forces would eliminate the problems you are concerned with orders of magnitude better. But people would rather nitpick the little stuff and claim "It's SOO complicated though."
Hi. I'm the guy who used this seemingly dreadful "c word". What I said was:
Mr. Tact wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 08:49:
Incarceration is a complicated subject. You shouldn't treat shoplifters and potheads the same way you would murderers and rapists. You want to think that some crooks can be rehabilitated, but certainly some can't or don't want to be.
I still stand by that statement. In case I wasn't being clear, I was simply attempting to point out the prison population varies widely and as is often the case in any subject, broad generalizations are not very useful. I also stand by what I said a little bit later:
Mr. Tact wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 09:46:
I might agree that worrying about their mail is a waste of time while the prisons are busy turning shoplifters and potheads into murderers and rapists -- it doesn't change the fact that arbitrary censoring isn't necessary or helpful.
 
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38. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 21:26 RailWizard
 
Dades wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 21:22:
Beamer wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 15:39:
RailWizard just broke the mold and showed compassion towards a group of people he is not a part of.

I'm a bit surprised, but pleasantly so.

Blue threatened to ban him if he kept up his act.

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!

Yes, I was very scared too. lol. This has nothing to do with that so you can go dry out your panties now.
 
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37. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 21:24 RailWizard
 
Well personally I think they should all be given computers with more or less full net access. There are some things that would have to be worked out so no crimes are committed through it's use, but I think it would serve many good purposes.

Such as keeping them in touch with the real world so that in the event they are let out they can still function in a society they are familiar with. It would also help keep them occupied and out of trouble, and if you spend enough time on it you can't help but learn from it. Even if it's just how to be social with people whose vocabulary includes more than just "Eat, Fuck, Kill."

Like I've said I've known many habitual criminals and I know from them what it's like being locked up. Hell I came pretty close myself a couple of times. Boredom is a hell of a thing. Had there been internet while I was growing up like there is today, maybe I would stayed out of trouble more often than not.

Maybe not for all of them, but it could be a perk for good behavior or something.
 
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36. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 21:22 Dades
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 15:39:
RailWizard just broke the mold and showed compassion towards a group of people he is not a part of.

I'm a bit surprised, but pleasantly so.

Blue threatened to ban him if he kept up his act.

But people would rather nitpick the little stuff and claim "It's SOO complicated though."

Why is nitpicking to pipe up about a dumb thing that caught your eye, just because you don't agree with the consensus?

- DADES - This is a signature of my name, enjoy!
 
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35. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 20:32 Sepharo
 
I just wanted to discuss the policy about printed out and mailed Facebook comments but everyone else wants to discuss either how easy or how hard prisoners have it (including the article). Frankly I don't give a shit about either side here. If I see something illogical I point it out and this policy sounds illogical.

And no I don't think a logical argument is that "Well, because they're prisoners there doesn't need to be a logical reason for the policies."
 
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34. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 18:09 Scheherazade
 
Constitution is what it is.
It's supreme, and no other law can violate its clauses. Ever.

It's there for a reason, not so we can enforce or neglect it as is convenient.

All exceptions are willful violations.

Too many liberties are taken by the state government as-is.

It's getting to the point that it's a dead document.




Even the president swears to defend the constitution, and then you get :

Executive branch stance on due process:
"Due process and judicial process are not one and the same, particularly when it comes to national security. The Constitution guarantees due process, not judicial process."

Allow impressed labor, when it's for 'national security' WhiteHouse.gov
(Which is ironic since the American revolution started in part because of Impressment)

And that's from a "Democrat"... 20 years ago this crap would be too conservative for even a hard-core national-security-above-all Republican. L. O. L.



Keep in mind that most laws do not pertain to any trespass of property or body.
They're simply "person(s) X in charge decides that he doesn't like Y, hence it's illegal".

The laws that universally matter to humanity in general are assault/murder, theft, and trespass. Basically 3 things.

After that you've got every clause in every bill at federal, state, and local level, since the creation of the country.
Odds are, everyone here is violating some law.

Then you the poor sap that gets in trouble have to deal with the consequences, while everyone scoffs at how you don't deserve any rights.




Most people in jail never hurt anyone's person or property.
They're there because they did something that the state government lawmakers personally didn't like.
The constitution is in place, in part to temper these kinds of things.
Many people in jail shouldn't even be in jail in the first place.

Oh, and many jails are private corporations (contractors), belonging to family members or friends of politicians.
One is funneling "jobs (prisoners)" to the other, while the state (people) has to pay taxes to have their family/friends incarcerated.
And in the mean time the prison corporations sell cheap prison labor to other corporations to compete with China (No work = solitary confinement).
Win-Win for business, and the general public gets screwed.
(1% of our adult population is in jail. Including parole ~1 in 30 adults. 1 in 9 Black males between 20 and 34 is in Jail. We have about 1/4 of the world's prisoners. NYTimes Wiki)
It's just business.

There's too many laws already. We need less. Way way less.

(Granted lawmakers need to stay busy, so they need to make up something... otherwise people will start asking why do we need these people.)

Just keep an eye on U.S. political society, see how it's changing.
Watch as logic goes down the crapper, and the middle slowly moves right.
Watch people scapegoat economic issues with social constructs.
Watch politicians pander to the religious just to get elected - screw what it does to the nation.
Maybe we can finally get Levitican law and make all the conservatives happy as a clam, while everyone else tries to keep their heads down and hopes to be unnoticed. Shariah ain't got nothin' on us.

Too many laws.

-scheherazade

This comment was edited on Oct 16, 2012, 18:35.
 
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33. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 16:38 Beamer
 
I don't see people getting "butthurt," or bitching about being too complicated.
People are bitching that removing mail is unnecessary, and forcing labor is something that was tried and ended due to cost. Not complication, cost. In order to renew the labor aspect we'd need to start funding prisons significantly more than we are. Given that I'm somewhat certain Prez is against raising taxes, I'd be... wait, I'm not interested in knowing where he'd get that money. I'm pretty certain he believes in Welfare Queens and thinks we should just take away welfare then wait for those that had been on welfare to break a law, put them in jail and make them work for free.

 
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32. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 16:24 Prez
 
LMAO at Rail Wizard. Nice to know you are attacking what you wish I had said rather than what I have actually said. Helps me know to ignore you as you have nothing of value whatsoever to add.

Mail doesn't matter. Making prisons into tightly run labor forces would eliminate the problems you are concerned with orders of magnitude better. But people would rather nitpick the little stuff and claim "It's SOO complicated though." There's no such thing as an easy fix, but Jesus H. Christ ya gotta start somewhere, and mail (which is a *privilege*, not a right) does fuck all. Anyway I am done with this thread... too many people getting butthurt.

This comment was edited on Oct 16, 2012, 16:37.
 
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31. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 15:39 Beamer
 
RailWizard just broke the mold and showed compassion towards a group of people he is not a part of.

I'm a bit surprised, but pleasantly so.
 
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http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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30. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 15:26 RailWizard
 
Prez wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 08:04:
Like I said, we're not talking torture racks or tarring and feathering here - it's their mail. Big deal.

If it's no big deal, then why do you care so much?


Prez wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 08:04:
I got denied more privileges than they do on a daily basis in the military, and I didn't commit any crimes. I'm glad you bleeding hearts don't run the penal system or society would be even more fucked than it is now when you end up releasing everyone because you felt bad for them.

Oh I see, you're one of them. Nobody has to imagine what a penal system run by someone like you would be like, there are plenty of examples in the world. They are basically monster farms.

I don't really believe you though, I think you'd rather just execute them all. That seems to fit your profile better based on things you've said here.
 
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29. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 11:26 Mr. Tact
 
Manual labor is used at some (no idea how many) minimum security prisons, or at least was 15 years ago. When I was stationed at Gunter AFB in Montgomery, AL the grounds keeping was done by prisoners from a nearby federal minimum security facility.

This comment was edited on Oct 16, 2012, 11:32.
 
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28. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 11:22 Beamer
 
Incidentally, "good honest labor" is very expensive. What does it mean? It needs to be provided on site, which is expensive and difficult, or prisoners need to be transported to it, which is expensive and risky. It often involves tools, which can be used as weapons, and it requires supervision, which is also expensive.

Why did prisons stop doing this? Budgets, mostly.
 
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http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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27. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 11:18 Verno
 
Mail is a real solution to a real problem as I've already illustrated and that's just one example. There's a reason inmates get it in the first place. Unnecessary restriction of benefits like mail has been linked to prison riots which puts more burden on the prison system, the courts who have to mete out additional punishment and the taxpayer. When you strip away what few rights they retain, they will turn to other sources.

There is no silver bullet to the prison system, it's a battery of problems that need a series of solutions. Some of them will be "touchy feely crap" as we can't just be a distant, harsh master who prescribes labor to solve everything.
 
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26. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 10:34 Prez
 
If prisons were run the way they should be, the inmates would be too tired to worry about mail, gangs, butt rape, and whatever other distractions you could mention. Put these guys to work doing honest labor from sunup 'til sundown - you'll keep them out of trouble, foster a sense of workmanship and teach them skills to use out in society upon release. It would be hard time but the inmates would not be robbed of their dignity the way they are now.

As far as who is going to prison, from what I've seen drug courts and other similar probationary and rehabilitative programs for non-violent offenders seem to be working towards ensuring we stop turning potheads into thugs. They definitely seem to be working here in the Memphis area, one of the nation's highest crime areas.

I don't mean to be standoff-ish, but all of the touchy-feely crap that goes on whenever a story like this comes up solves nothing and only serves to confuse the main issue. I prefer real solutions to real problems.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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25. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 10:17 Beamer
 
Verno wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 10:10:
the loss of any societal connection just strengthens the reach and allure of gangs.

Yup. What do people think inmates will do if they have no distractions? Sit around and make sand castles?
 
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24. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 10:10 Verno
 
Prez wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 09:42:
If anyone really cared about the inmates they'd not be crying about blocked mail; you'd be asking why gangs are allowed to operate within prison walls and guys have to go to extreme dehumanizing measures just to avoid being someone's bitch.

I don't know, I am somehow capable of worrying about two things at the same time It's not a situation where people can only worry about two possible outcomes.

I don't hear anyone saying stopping this kind of minute interference will solve the problems but it doesn't require a lot of effort or mindshare to see that its not helping either. To use your own example, the loss of any societal connection just strengthens the reach and allure of gangs.
 
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23. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 09:46 Mr. Tact
 
I might agree that worrying about their mail is a waste of time while the prisons are busy turning shoplifters and potheads into murderers and rapists -- it doesn't change the fact that arbitrary censoring isn't necessary or helpful.  
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22. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 09:42 Prez
 
Verno wrote on Oct 16, 2012, 09:18:
Inmates aren't aliens, they are citizens who were convicted of a crime. Some people here are acting like they suddenly ceased to be human because of that.

What dehunanizes an inmate more? Removing certain privileges that the prison allows them to have or allowing (and even encouraging) them to behave like animals, allowing the stronger to prey on the weaker and physically abuse them in every way imaginable? What really causes inmates who get sent in for minor crimes to become hardened criminals by the time they are released? I can pretty much guarantee it's not the lack TV time or mail privileges. It seems you guys are worried about the tiny things that don't matter while ignoring the far more severe inhumanities they are forced to endure while incarcerated.

If anyone really cared about the inmates they'd not be crying about blocked mail; you'd be asking why gangs are allowed to operate within prison walls and guys have to go to extreme dehumanizing measures just to avoid being someone's bitch.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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21. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 09:18 Verno
 
Inmates aren't aliens, they are citizens who were convicted of a crime. Some people here are acting like they suddenly ceased to be human because of that.  
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20. Re: Evening Legal Briefs Oct 16, 2012, 08:49 Mr. Tact
 
Sepharo isn't making a case for more lenient treatment, just that allowed paper mail isn't arbitrarily censored by the prison officials. He clearly indicated that if the mail specifically violates some rule it should be withheld. His position is very reasonable and is not some "bleeding heart" rant..

Incarceration is a complicated subject. You shouldn't treat shoplifters and potheads the same way you would murderers and rapists. You want to think that some crooks can be rehabilitated, but certainly some can't or don't want to be.

The positive example would be the segment on 60 Minutes this week. They featured a court in Texas which specifically deals with veterans. These guys come back from Iraq and Afghanistan with PTSD and don't get proper treatment, many times because it isn't made available to them, and end up committing a battery or other "violent" crime. Many (most?) of these guys are good guys with real problems. Throw them in Cutter's prison and you get a permanent criminal. Do what the court in Texas does, use probation, mandatory treatment, and counseling -- and instead 90% of the time you get back a functioning member of society.
 
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