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Sunday Legal Briefs

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17 Replies. 1 pages. Viewing page 1.
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17. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 17, 2012, 09:30 Bhruic
 
Cutter wrote on Sep 17, 2012, 01:11:
Unlikely is the key word there. Inducing a nun to steal something would be entrapment. Infiltrating an extremist group is worlds apart. These people already have set themselves apart and have chosen to put themselves apart from society - violently so. This is how they cane to the feds attention in the first place. They're not supplying them real bombs, and in any case it only proves how extreme they are. Geez, you make it sound like they trying to entrap boy scouts or the like. I'm all for the feds going after those sorts of assholes BEFORE they strike.

Convincing people to commit a crime is entrapment, no matter how easy they are to convince. Pressuring people to move from conversation to action is entrapment, no matter how little pressure you need to apply. In the example from the article, the FBI agent (allegedly) took people who were "fantasizing" about blowing up a bridge to a specific high-traffic target. It's a pretty clear case on entrapment (based on the description from the article, the reality may differ).

It shouldn't be the position of law enforcement to enduce people to commit crimes. Sure, going undercover to facilitate information gathering is fine. Even assisting in the preparation is fine (especially with bomb acquiring to ensure a dud). But the undercover agent should never be the one suggesting or initiating anything. Otherwise it crosses the line.
 
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16. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 17, 2012, 03:31 eRe4s3r
 
That's ok then It is a simple matter on how far you trust the FBI or the Police to tell the truth.

Obviously you didn't have enough bad experiences and scandals (in your country) yet (see my other reply)
 
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15. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 17, 2012, 03:27 eRe4s3r
 
True, and if it is real extremists.. then this isn't a bad thing.. but you gotta understand that a gov agency is not exactly known for limiting itself when it has the power to do shit...

I know this may seem harsh, but if you are not following it... you should read this at least http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Underground and understand why I don't trust government agencies (or the police) a single inch.

Sidenote: That Wikipedia article doesn't mention the scandals that public inquiry brought to light, which is pretty surprising. Not sure where else to link in English, as obviously this is mainly covered by German media... If you were following this case here you would not believe a single word a federal security agency tells you, ever again. These agencies lied, constantly, throughout the public inquiry (which has the defacto total authority to DEMAND ALL files of any kind) and new stuff comes to light not because security agencies tell us but because this inquiry digs and digs constantly at the leading idiots in charge to uncover the true scandal.

This comment was edited on Sep 17, 2012, 03:39.
 
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14. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 17, 2012, 01:11 Cutter
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 23:06:
That is actually the exact definition of entrapment...

Unlikely is the key word there. Inducing a nun to steal something would be entrapment. Infiltrating an extremist group is worlds apart. These people already have set themselves apart and have chosen to put themselves apart from society - violently so. This is how they cane to the feds attention in the first place. They're not supplying them real bombs, and in any case it only proves how extreme they are. Geez, you make it sound like they trying to entrap boy scouts or the like. I'm all for the feds going after those sorts of assholes BEFORE they strike.
 
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13. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 17, 2012, 00:26 Prez
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 23:24:
eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 23:06:
The true criminal is the one supplying the bombs in the first place.

Also, I think we have an impasse in arguing anyway, you seem to think that supplying bombs to someone is a minor thing, to me, that is the original crime, the reason d'etre of these criminals.

Hence my quip at you with the apple customers, because whether it is bombs or the Apple Reality Distortion Field... is the same thing really, at least in concept

I would rather the FBI seek out and find these guys and arrest them, than letting them wait and wait and then respond when something happens cause someone actually did help the guy with a REAL bomb.

In some of the recent articles, the FBI watched these people for a long time, then when the opportunity arose, they gave them an out, and they didnt want to stop. Therefore they supply them with a fake bomb and arrest them.

I see no problem with that. Go do some research on these people they are stopping. They are so vocal in wanting to harm us that they would take help from anyone, and they would succeed.

Well said. Completely agree. And utterly disagree with eRes4er.
 
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12. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 23:57 LittleMe
 
Anyone can be manipulated and suggested to do just about anything. Being malleable is not and should not be a crime. Eraser is right.. Who is supplying and encouraging it? The authorities. They do it, I believe, because they need some 'scraps' to justify their enormous budgets. They twist truths and use scare mongering in budget hearings and use lie-ridden threats if they don't get their money. It's a shakedown and we are all the victim. It's been going on for decades. They get away with it and that encourages more of it. If the people are worried about money and not their freedoms, they'll get neither.

 
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11. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 23:24 xXBatmanXx
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 23:06:
The true criminal is the one supplying the bombs in the first place.

Also, I think we have an impasse in arguing anyway, you seem to think that supplying bombs to someone is a minor thing, to me, that is the original crime, the reason d'etre of these criminals.

Hence my quip at you with the apple customers, because whether it is bombs or the Apple Reality Distortion Field... is the same thing really, at least in concept

I would rather the FBI seek out and find these guys and arrest them, than letting them wait and wait and then respond when something happens cause someone actually did help the guy with a REAL bomb.

In some of the recent articles, the FBI watched these people for a long time, then when the opportunity arose, they gave them an out, and they didnt want to stop. Therefore they supply them with a fake bomb and arrest them.

I see no problem with that. Go do some research on these people they are stopping. They are so vocal in wanting to harm us that they would take help from anyone, and they would succeed.
 
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10. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 23:20 xXBatmanXx
 
Prez wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 16:09:
How FBI Entrapment Is Inventing 'Terrorists' - and Letting Bad Guys Off the Hook


Oh. My. GOD - What a stupid, STUPID editorial!! I'm so glad I stopped reading Rolling Stone long ago if this is the caliber of writer they employ. The article is so stupid and slanted as to actually be offensive.

The last time I picked it up was when Hunter S Thompson had the memorial edition. The rag is garbage. Witch hunting, straw men, bla bla bla OMG TERROR! Gets old.
 
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9. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 23:06 eRe4s3r
 
That is actually the exact definition of entrapment...

In criminal law, entrapment is conduct by a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense that the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.

and inducing means
1. To lead or move, as to a course of action, by influence or persuasion. See Synonyms at persuade.
2. To bring about or stimulate the occurrence of
3. To infer by inductive reasoning.


Without the FBI supplying bombs, those "terrorists" would likely never have done a thing.

And that is what entrapment is. Creating crime where there is only the potential, not the actual existence of one. If you gave me a dozen AK47's and 500k $ I could "entrap" a dozen people to storm your house , would you argue that they are to blame, or that I would be to blame for the crime that then took place?

Surely you are not arguing that the one instigating a crime is innocent! And whether it is to entrap or not, that is exactly what the FBI does. Inventing crimes. by giving Tools that are out of reach to anyone (normally) to potential criminals who without these tools would NEVER commit a crime. Indeed, that is the very meaning of POTENTIAL.

The true criminal is the one supplying the bombs in the first place.

Also, I think we have an impasse in arguing anyway, you seem to think that supplying bombs to someone is a minor thing, to me, that is the original crime, the reason d'etre of these criminals.

Hence my quip at you with the apple customers, because whether it is bombs or the Apple Reality Distortion Field... is the same thing really, at least in concept

This comment was edited on Sep 16, 2012, 23:17.
 
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8. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 22:17 Cutter
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 18:37:
As for"
Do you really want people running around loose that are that easily suggestible?

Well.. I don't see the FBI taking down Apple customers for some reason!

And how many of those are looking to become terrorists? Leaving your door open is not an invitation for anyone to walk in off the street, and making a suggestion to group of extremists - simply to find out how far they're willing to go - is not entrapment.
 
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"Bye weeks? Bronko Nagurski didn't get no bye weeks, and now he's dead… Well, maybe they're a good thing." - Moe
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7. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 18:52 killer_roach
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 18:37:
As for"
Do you really want people running around loose that are that easily suggestible?

Well.. I don't see the FBI taking down Apple customers for some reason!

That, right there, is a weapons-grade takedown.
 
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6. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 18:37 eRe4s3r
 
And your argument why the FBI should suggest these crimes to begin with is what exactly? If I give you a bomb, ready to blow, would you not think about how to use it and maybe reach the conclusion that the revolution should start today rather than tomorrow? This is entrapment of people who do things after you have given them the 100% opportunity to do them. Ordinarily, this would NEVER happen in reality, people don't walk around with bombs looking for people to use them.

As for"
Do you really want people running around loose that are that easily suggestible?

Well.. I don't see the FBI taking down Apple customers for some reason!
 
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5. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 18:25 Cutter
 
jdreyer wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 14:55:
Smellfinger wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 13:25:
The FBI was using informants to infiltrate the mafia (Donny Brasco, anyone?) and white nationalist organizations like the KKK and Aryan Nations long before they started targeting muslims. It was a decent article until they threw in that red herring.

You completely missed the point. In the case of white supremacists and the mafia, you had groups of people perpetrating crimes for years. The informants then infiltrated them and collected evidence of those crimes. In the case of the Occupy "terrorists" and Habib case, you had individuals who had committed no crimes, and had no knowledge of how to commit a crime. Then an informant is sent in to convince them to commit a crime, teach them how to do it, connect them with suppliers, etc. etc. then turn them in. It's ridiculous. All that effort to catch people whose chance and ability of committing a crime was nonexistent, when there are existing people and groups out there committing or planning on committing terrorism that should be investigated and prevented.

Do you really want people running around loose that are that easily suggestible? Someone tells you blow up a bridge you just say 'Derp! Ok!' Fucking seriously? These people are targeted because they have profiles that have come to the FBIs attention for a very good reason. They're not just randomly picking people out of the phonebook. The face that they can plant someone who makes an outrageous suggestion to commit an act of terrorism and they happily go along with it tells you all you need to know. Entrapment my ass!
 
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"Bye weeks? Bronko Nagurski didn't get no bye weeks, and now he's dead… Well, maybe they're a good thing." - Moe
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4. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 16:09 Prez
 
How FBI Entrapment Is Inventing 'Terrorists' - and Letting Bad Guys Off the Hook


Oh. My. GOD - What a stupid, STUPID editorial!! I'm so glad I stopped reading Rolling Stone long ago if this is the caliber of writer they employ. The article is so stupid and slanted as to actually be offensive.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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3. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 15:55 eRe4s3r
 
I love how everyone calls these Islamic terrorists burning down embassies "demonstrators" .. that's like calling the Taliban freedom fighters and al Quaida a knitting club.

Man I hate this god damn media spin everywhere. The only back-slash I fear is that anti-islam hate will rise in the west. Already if you ask a random person on the street what they think about Muslims the first thing they will answer is terrorists. And boy are they improving their image in the world with this.
 
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2. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 14:55 jdreyer
 
Smellfinger wrote on Sep 16, 2012, 13:25:
The FBI was using informants to infiltrate the mafia (Donny Brasco, anyone?) and white nationalist organizations like the KKK and Aryan Nations long before they started targeting muslims. It was a decent article until they threw in that red herring.

You completely missed the point. In the case of white supremacists and the mafia, you had groups of people perpetrating crimes for years. The informants then infiltrated them and collected evidence of those crimes. In the case of the Occupy "terrorists" and Habib case, you had individuals who had committed no crimes, and had no knowledge of how to commit a crime. Then an informant is sent in to convince them to commit a crime, teach them how to do it, connect them with suppliers, etc. etc. then turn them in. It's ridiculous. All that effort to catch people whose chance and ability of committing a crime was nonexistent, when there are existing people and groups out there committing or planning on committing terrorism that should be investigated and prevented.
 
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1. Re: Sunday Legal Briefs Sep 16, 2012, 13:25 Smellfinger
 
The FBI was using informants to infiltrate the mafia (Donny Brasco, anyone?) and white nationalist organizations like the KKK and Aryan Nations long before they started targeting muslims. It was a decent article until they threw in that red herring.  
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