66 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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| 46. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 16:58 |
PHJF |
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Suicide is absolutely not black and white, but there are ways to do it that don't have wider implications on a wider audience.
Maybe suicide is SUPPOSED to have a WIDE audience so strangers can EXPLORE what happened and take stock of their OWN lives. Nothing makes a person question life quite like DEATH. |
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| 45. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 16:26 |
ASeven |
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nin wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 15:45:
Take care, Lorcin. Sorry about the losses in your family.
Same here, despite the disagreements I also am very sorry about the losses. |
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| 44. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 16:22 |
Beamer |
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Bet wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 16:17:
Anytime you involve someone else as the mechanism of your death (train/subway driver, cop), you're scarring them for life as they're left with the guilt of ending you. Even unintentional suicide like people trying to go around the bars on roads out of impatience and not realizing their own stupidity messes up train drivers brains, as they're witnesses to something terrible that they couldn't stop.
I agree with the likes of nin, Agent.X7 and Aseven in this case though. A slow wasting disease will fuck up kids that age for life, as surely as witnessing him blow his brains out would. You'll still need counseling either way. As to how much better/worse a quick suicide is, knowing that your dad ended it on his feet, well that's a grisly debate that hopefully no one here has to weigh for themselves.
Man on Fire was a great movie. Now's a great time for a revenge flick like that if you're upset about this. Remember the man for what he was, not how he ended.
Clip of the movie (spoilers), at 3:20 a scene to change the subject http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRhj6BF2hMA
Apparently they took the non-subtitle white text out of later versions. Talk about gutting an effective creative touch of stylized emphasis of dialogue...
My point is just that there are ways that don't put anyone else in danger, scar them, or otherwise ruin their day. You're absolutely correct about what it must do to the guy operating the train or subway, or the diver that's searching for the body, or the driver that sees the man jump off the bridge.
Suicide is absolutely not black and white, but there are ways to do it that don't have wider implications on a wider audience. I'd still put the Jackie-O suicide as one of the better managed one (which is a privilege she had.) Family crowded around, said goodbye and had their closure, and she slipped off in a painless, clean morphine overdose. |
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| 43. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 16:17 |
Bet |
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Anytime you involve someone else as the mechanism of your death (train/subway driver, cop), you're scarring them for life as they're left with the guilt of ending you. Even unintentional suicide like people trying to go around the bars on roads out of impatience and not realizing their own stupidity messes up train drivers brains, as they're witnesses to something terrible that they couldn't stop.
I agree with the likes of nin, Agent.X7 and Aseven in this case though. A slow wasting disease will fuck up kids that age for life, as surely as witnessing him blow his brains out would. You'll still need counseling either way. As to how much better/worse a quick suicide is, knowing that your dad ended it on his feet, well that's a grisly debate that hopefully no one here has to weigh for themselves.
Man on Fire was a great movie. Now's a great time for a revenge flick like that if you're upset about this. Remember the man for what he was, not how he ended.
Clip of the movie (spoilers), at 3:20 a scene to change the subject http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRhj6BF2hMA
Apparently they took the non-subtitle white text out of later versions. Talk about gutting an effective creative touch of stylized emphasis of dialogue... |
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| 42. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 15:55 |
Beamer |
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DNForever wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 15:39:
WTF is wrong with you Beamer
There are ways that you can commit suicide that are private and effect those closest to you and ways that are public and effect many.
Yes, this isn't on par with the guys that park their trucks on train tracks (remember that guy in LA? He lived, but not everyone on the train that hit him lived), but you can certainly pick a way that doesn't put everyone else out.
As someone that's been stuck on the NY subway for well over an hour because of someone jumping on the track, you really wish they found a way that doesn't bring thousands of strangers into it, often putting many (such as divers) into harm. |
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| 41. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 15:45 |
nin |
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Take care, Lorcin. Sorry about the losses in your family.
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RollinThundr Apr 17, 2013, 12:25: Eh really tossing stuff like that in there only to get your panties all bunched up. If you really want to call that trolling sure.
Mr. Tact Apr 17, 2013, 12:33: Pretty sure that's the definition of trolling... |
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| 40. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 15:41 |
Lorcin |
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Offline for a couple of days but final word on this - when my mum first went into the coma we were shocked to find that her morphine drip was kept in a locked box under her pillow. We assumed it was to stop drug addicts stealing it.
A few days later the truth hit that it was locked for a much darker reason. |
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| 39. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 15:39 |
DNForever |
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| WTF is wrong with you Beamer |
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| 38. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 15:36 |
PHJF |
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Though this is all true, deciding to jump off a bridge is absolutely selfish. He just parked in one lane and walked off. The bridge was closed for a while. Divers had to go in looking for the body. The waterway was slowed down while they did this. Police have to launch an investigation.
At the very least this is costing tax payers thousands of dollars. It's also a big surprise to the family, because extremely public, etc.
This is absolutely right. Mr. Scott should be fined severely and chastised for his indecency. |
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| 37. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 15:34 |
ASeven |
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Beamer wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 15:27:
ASeven wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 13:49:
Lorcin wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 13:41:
Sorry but suicide is a selfish cowardly act - especially as his twin sons are only 12.
Suicide a selfish cowardly act? Sorry, that is to paint things so black and white you are insulting everyone involved. Suicide is never, ever a black and white thing and it sure as hell isn't a selfish cowardly act. It's an act of utter desperation at the very least and one of the most heartbreaking acts that can happen because the reasons for it to happen are always extremely complex.
Views such as this help increase the suicide rate rather than help preventing suicides and throwing suicide into the moral realm without even caring about the reasons behind it is the lowest of the low.
Though this is all true, deciding to jump off a bridge is absolutely selfish. He just parked in one lane and walked off. The bridge was closed for a while. Divers had to go in looking for the body. The waterway was slowed down while they did this. Police have to launch an investigation.
At the very least this is costing tax payers thousands of dollars. It's also a big surprise to the family, because extremely public, etc.
There are more private ways of going about this, especially if you have wealth. Pull a Jackie-O and just overdose on morphine while your family crowds around you saying goodbye.
I'm not saying that what he did is wrong or right, but you can't say it either since you have no idea what he was going through. It looks to us like it is selfish to go away like that without a word to your family and indeed the way you mention seems a lot better, to go away surrounded by the family, much like, for instance, Terry Pratchett plans on going soon.
Thing is, you have no idea what he was thinking, how his family environment was. Maybe he thought it was less painful for the family this way. Was it? Probably not but he must have felt pretty desperate and probably thinking it no longer had any choice. He may have felt this was the best way and, honestly, who are we to say otherwise? Would you have gone to him and convince him otherwise? Would you present viable solutions when assisted suicide is banned pretty much everywhere in the world due to the misguided religious and moral perception that suicide is wrong? What would you have done in his stead? It's easy to talk not suffering what he was suffering, it's when we're in the same position that perhaps we might realize things are never easy no matter what decision you take. |
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| 36. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 15:27 |
Beamer |
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ASeven wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 13:49:
Lorcin wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 13:41:
Sorry but suicide is a selfish cowardly act - especially as his twin sons are only 12.
Suicide a selfish cowardly act? Sorry, that is to paint things so black and white you are insulting everyone involved. Suicide is never, ever a black and white thing and it sure as hell isn't a selfish cowardly act. It's an act of utter desperation at the very least and one of the most heartbreaking acts that can happen because the reasons for it to happen are always extremely complex.
Views such as this help increase the suicide rate rather than help preventing suicides and throwing suicide into the moral realm without even caring about the reasons behind it is the lowest of the low.
Though this is all true, deciding to jump off a bridge is absolutely selfish. He just parked in one lane and walked off. The bridge was closed for a while. Divers had to go in looking for the body. The waterway was slowed down while they did this. Police have to launch an investigation.
At the very least this is costing tax payers thousands of dollars. It's also a big surprise to the family, because extremely public, etc.
There are more private ways of going about this, especially if you have wealth. Pull a Jackie-O and just overdose on morphine while your family crowds around you saying goodbye. |
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| 35. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 15:24 |
ASeven |
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Prez wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 14:03:
Suicide really only seems selfish to someone who is of sound mind and not intimately familiar with what the person who considers it or goes through with it is gong through. Where depression is concerned, when the mental state where suicide becomes a viable option is reached, you are no longer thinking in terms of what affect your actions will have; you are solely focused on ending the unbearable, all-consuming pain that you feel. Therapy can help, IF you can afford it and IF you find a good therapist, but that's a lot of "if's. In the case of being faced with dying of a terrible wasting illness I imagine that depression can easily be a factor, but I am not experienced with such a case. What Verno and nin have said makes a whole lot of sense though. If killing oneself is how the victim attempts to lessen the suffering of his family (instead of watching him waste away and suffer endlessly), if anything that sounds like a self-LESS act, not a selfish one. The problem is (and the reason I'm still here, incidentally) is that younger kids don't look at it that way - all they understand is that daddy took himself away from us, and that can really mess them up.
This so very much. To put the burden of guilt of suicide on the one making it makes things so much worse. Suicide is, in a way, guiltless since everyone suffers and none more than the one committing the act.
Suicide is a cowardly act? Maybe wanting them to stick around in pain and utter misery is the selfish and cowardly act instead. One thing is for sure, suicide is too complex to throw the coward word around at it. Lorcin, you think the ones that stick around suffer with a sudden goodbye? How about the one that is forced to stick around in pain and abject suffering feels, happy and joy? In the same tone that you say suicide is cowardly I can also easily say that wanting people in hopeless pain that cannot be fixed, not in the present day, to stick around is as coward as well.
For people with diseases that unfortunately cannot be cured with current day technology and medicine knowledge then it's up to that person, and nobody else, to make the decision. It would be better if they could stick around to say goodbye but as many pointed out sometimes they themselves think that saying goodbye will make the loved ones hurt more and so they leave suddenly.
Those afflicted with depression, a disease that in many ways is as soul destroying as cancer itself, there is hope but as Prez said, that hope often with too many ifs tragically. While taking away cancer from all those that suffer from it is still a bit away in time in medical terms, depression can be helped nowadays but only if, as Prez said, the right things happen. When they do not it's as tragic as someone succumbing from a physical disease and no less painful. This I talk from experience. |
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| 34. |
Re: Out of the Blue |
Aug 20, 2012, 14:26 |
Agent.X7 |
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MxxCon wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 14:14:
Google thing MrsBlue moved to a better company.
Disney is craizee.
Disney hates open-source software
LOL. Did you do that from a "smart" phone? |
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| Seven Star Gaming - Sayre, PA |
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| 33. |
Re: Out of the Blue |
Aug 20, 2012, 14:14 |
MxxCon |
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| 32. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 14:03 |
Prez |
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Suicide really only seems selfish to someone who is of sound mind and not intimately familiar with what the person who considers it or goes through with it is gong through. Where depression is concerned, when the mental state where suicide becomes a viable option is reached, you are no longer thinking in terms of what affect your actions will have; you are solely focused on ending the unbearable, all-consuming pain that you feel. Therapy can help, IF you can afford it and IF you find a good therapist, but that's a lot of "if's. In the case of being faced with dying of a terrible wasting illness I imagine that depression can easily be a factor, but I am not experienced with such a case. What Verno and nin have said makes a whole lot of sense though. If killing oneself is how the victim attempts to lessen the suffering of his family (instead of watching him waste away and suffer endlessly), if anything that sounds like a self-LESS act, not a selfish one. The problem is (and the reason I'm still here, incidentally) is that younger kids don't look at it that way - all they understand is that daddy took himself away from us, and that can really mess them up.
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| 31. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 14:01 |
Lorcin |
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Cutter wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 13:56:
How the fuck do you know? Maybe his sons will grow up better adjusted because they didn't see their father waste away to nothing, dying slowly in extreme pain. Maybe they'll be proud that the old man had the stones to go out on his own terms. There's nothing selfish or cowardly about not wanting to suffer and not wanting others to suffer either. Asshole.
Bollocks - at any point my mum could have walked into the garden and thrown herself onto the high speed railink which goes past the house. She didn't not even when she told their was no hope as her liver was too full of cancer for her to have chemo. She lived every last second she could to the max and spent as much time as possible with her grandchildren. Even when she could no longer walk she got herself a mobility scooter and still went out with us.
When it did finally come the grieving process had already begun (she stayed in a coma for 10 days) and the family was fully prepared. It was not the sudden shock of a suicide which hits the remaining family like a train. |
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| 30. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 13:56 |
Cutter |
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Lorcin wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 13:41:
Sorry but suicide is a selfish cowardly act - especially as his twin sons are only 12.
Maybe he didn't want them to go through watching him slowly die but to rip himself out of their lives will do way more harm in the long term.
How the fuck do you know? Maybe his sons will grow up better adjusted because they didn't see their father waste away to nothing, dying slowly in extreme pain. Maybe they'll be proud that the old man had the stones to go out on his own terms. There's nothing selfish or cowardly about not wanting to suffer and not wanting others to suffer either. Asshole.
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| "Are you crazy? Is that your problem?" - Jack Burton |
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| 29. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 13:52 |
Lorcin |
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Yeah read nin's about possibly why he did it.
I still don't agree - my mum was diagnosed with cancer 4 years ago, she died 6 weeks later but it gave my kids the time to say goodbye and come to terms with it.
My father in law died of it 2 weeks ago. He was ill for a couple of weeks first, we visited on the Tuesday and he was frail but chatting to the kids. On the Wednesday he was taken into hospital and they found the cancer, come the Friday the decision had to be made to turn off the life support as both his liver and kidneys had failed. 9 hours before he passed he told us to tell the kids he loved them.
It was brutally fast but still gave the kids a brief amount of time to accept it was inevitable and gave both my wife and his wife a chance to say their final goodbyes. |
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| 28. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 13:49 |
ASeven |
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Lorcin wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 13:41:
Sorry but suicide is a selfish cowardly act - especially as his twin sons are only 12.
Suicide a selfish cowardly act? Sorry, that is to paint things so black and white you are insulting everyone involved. Suicide is never, ever a black and white thing and it sure as hell isn't a selfish cowardly act. It's an act of utter desperation at the very least and one of the most heartbreaking acts that can happen because the reasons for it to happen are always extremely complex.
Views such as this help increase the suicide rate rather than help preventing suicides and throwing suicide into the moral realm without even caring about the reasons behind it is the lowest of the low. |
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| 27. |
Re: removed |
Aug 20, 2012, 13:48 |
Agent.X7 |
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Lorcin wrote on Aug 20, 2012, 13:41:
Sorry but suicide is a selfish cowardly act - especially as his twin sons are only 12.
Maybe he didn't want them to go through watching him slowly die but to rip himself out of their lives will do way more harm in the long term.
Says someone who has probably never had a family member waste away in front of them. Trust me, I would pick having my grandfather be suddenly missing every fucking time over watching him die for a year. My grandmother did from cancer as well, but it hit so quick and hard she was in the hospital only a few days before she passed. It was so much easier on all of us. We were still sad, but having it drawn out for a long time SUCKS. |
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| Seven Star Gaming - Sayre, PA |
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66 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 2.
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