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34. Re: Blizzard/Valve and Win8 Jul 30, 2012, 10:15 Ant
 
jdreyer wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 00:14:
eunichron wrote on Jul 27, 2012, 20:50:
Well there you have it... the two largest PC video game makers speaking out against Win8. Both companies already simultaneously develop for MacOS and Windows, and Valve is expressing sincere interest in Linux. Something is going to give... either Microsoft will realize it's shitty decisions with Win8 and make more desktop oriented SKUs, instead of forcing clunky and terrible tablet interfaces, or desktop gaming will move to another platform. In case of the latter I would prefer Linux over MacOS, though.

I dunno, Vista was horrible, and that didn't drive developers and customers to Linux. And no one stopped developing for Dx9c just b/c of Vista/W7 either. In fact, only one game ever has been built from the ground up for DX10: BF3. Anyone who hates W8 will just stay with/buy W7 instead.

Personally, I'd love it of all the games were developed for Linux so I can stop giving MS $100 every few years, but I don't see that happening. And W7 is a pretty excellent OS, IMO. So, they screw up W8, no one buys it, and W9 is a vast improvement. Sounds good to me.
Vista wasn't that bad. Windows ME and 8 were worse for desktops! I am sure 8 is fine for tablet devices.
 
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33. Re: etc., etc. Jul 29, 2012, 20:17 Dev
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 29, 2012, 12:14:
However if it becomes clearer and clearer they are locking everything out, I reserve the right to change my mind. I just don't like to cry wolf too early. I'm still learning on what is going on here.
If you look at what MS has frequently and habitually done in the past to lock things up and out, its never too early to cry wolf with MS. Often the competitor product has been killed by the time MS changes tack.

Courts have tried to make MS do things, and as often as MS complies (usually when something is meaningless, like years old that no one uses anymore), it seems they don't comply and they end back up in court.

Also, it wouldn't be MS's responsibility to change the BIOS, its the system makers that are changing that (albeit at the behest of an initiative that MS is pushing). That will likely be MS's defense. They will say "well anyone could get signed and certified to be secure."
 
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32. Re: etc., etc. Jul 29, 2012, 12:14 HorrorScope
 
Dev wrote on Jul 29, 2012, 04:26:
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 22:58:
It's possible but I'm not a person that always throws out the slipper slope card at any chance. We'll see. Yes the bios situation is underhanded and expect that one to end up in court.
And would you have predicted that MS would make what they obviously plan to be the most popular part of windows (metro) walled off so only apps approved by them can be run?

As for BIOS locking in court, so? As I said before, MS doesn't care about multi hundred million fines (or even billion dollar ones, did that billion dollar fine from EU ever actually get MS to change its behavior? Oh wait, they are doing the BIOS lockout, so that would be a no). And it would probably take 5+ years anyway, and by then the effect MS desires (locking people into windows for a bunch of years during the initial implementation of a strategy that might drive some into alternatives) would already have happened.

The Courts have more then fined MS in the past, they have made them alter code, they could pay a fine and be told you cannot do this and the bios's need to be altered. That wouldn't be setting a precedence, it's already happened to them.

And I get your point, but I can't slippery slope many things otherwise I live in a world of fear and paranoia. So that card comes out for things like Bill of Rights and not desktop UI rights for me. However if it becomes clearer and clearer they are locking everything out, I reserve the right to change my mind. I just don't like to cry wolf too early. I'm still learning on what is going on here.
 
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31. Re: etc., etc. Jul 29, 2012, 04:26 Dev
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 22:58:
It's possible but I'm not a person that always throws out the slipper slope card at any chance. We'll see. Yes the bios situation is underhanded and expect that one to end up in court.
And would you have predicted that MS would make what they obviously plan to be the most popular part of windows (metro) walled off so only apps approved by them can be run?

As for BIOS locking in court, so? As I said before, MS doesn't care about multi hundred million fines (or even billion dollar ones, did that billion dollar fine from EU ever actually get MS to change its behavior? Oh wait, they are doing the BIOS lockout, so that would be a no). And it would probably take 5+ years anyway, and by then the effect MS desires (locking people into windows for a bunch of years during the initial implementation of a strategy that might drive some into alternatives) would already have happened.
 
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30. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 22:58 HorrorScope
 
Dev wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 17:17:
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 12:19:
Sounds like we have a choice each purchase or a developer has a choice when they design their apps? Do I want this Metro App? Do I want to design this in Metro and deal with MS or traditional and keep things the same as they ever was?

If it was "only metro apps work in 8 and all apps go through MS", then I would completely laugh Win 8 off and Balmer has to go worse than the gnome at USPS. We could be approaching that... Balmer should have been gone a long time ago with the companies performance.
We only have a choice as long as MS lets us have a choice. They could well decide for windows 9 that we had enough of a transition period and not offer traditional desktop mode anymore, and force everyone to use metro. They've done more heinous things in the past.

They are already trying to force everyone to use their OS rather than any alternatives, with BIOS lockout of any non secured OS (aka non-windows). Perhaps they are afraid of people jumping ship to linux because of what they are are trying to do with windows 8 and want to make sure its not possible for the majority of people buying a storebought computer because of the BIOS lockouts?

It's possible but I'm not a person that always throws out the slipper slope card at any chance. We'll see. Yes the bios situation is underhanded and expect that one to end up in court.
 
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29. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 17:17 Dev
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 12:19:
Sounds like we have a choice each purchase or a developer has a choice when they design their apps? Do I want this Metro App? Do I want to design this in Metro and deal with MS or traditional and keep things the same as they ever was?

If it was "only metro apps work in 8 and all apps go through MS", then I would completely laugh Win 8 off and Balmer has to go worse than the gnome at USPS. We could be approaching that... Balmer should have been gone a long time ago with the companies performance.
We only have a choice as long as MS lets us have a choice. They could well decide for windows 9 that we had enough of a transition period and not offer traditional desktop mode anymore, and force everyone to use metro. They've done more heinous things in the past.

They are already trying to force everyone to use their OS rather than any alternatives, with BIOS lockout of any non secured OS (aka non-windows). Perhaps they are afraid of people jumping ship to linux because of what they are are trying to do with windows 8 and want to make sure its not possible for the majority of people buying a storebought computer because of the BIOS lockouts?
 
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28. Re: Blizzard/Valve and Win8 Jul 28, 2012, 16:28 HorrorScope
 
wtf_man wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 13:01:
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 12:13:
Vista isn't horrible, lack of support of drivers and turning off UAC would have done wonders for it.

Actually, Vista is still horrible even after service packs. It has nothing to do with the UI, UAC, nor even drivers (which are in abundance now). The network stack was a big issue but that has been fixed with service packs. The one thing remaining is the bloat. You can run 7 on a netbook / nettop with 1 GB of RAM fairly smoothly... Vista, you can't. (Well, not without a ton of tweaking, turning off services and such). The point is, people want most of their resources dedicated to their applications, not their OS.

To an individual... that may not mean all that much, because they will most likely have a beefy enough machine to handle the hogging... for the enterprise... it means alot, because cheap business class computers need to be able to do the work without spending a ton of money on hardware. The extra RAM and CPU to do the same thing with 7, adds up when one is replacing several hundred machines a year. Moreso back when Vista came out than now, but you get the gist of it, I assume.

Yeah I can buy into if for biz there was no real reason. I was talking more home, in general it works fine. I'm not trying to sell it as amazing, but for a single user at home that had some know how, it wasn't as bad as it sounded imo.
 
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27. Re: Blizzard/Valve and Win8 Jul 28, 2012, 13:01 wtf_man
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 12:13:
Vista isn't horrible, lack of support of drivers and turning off UAC would have done wonders for it.

Actually, Vista is still horrible even after service packs. It has nothing to do with the UI, UAC, nor even drivers (which are in abundance now). The network stack was a big issue but that has been fixed with service packs. The one thing remaining is the bloat. You can run 7 on a netbook / nettop with 1 GB of RAM fairly smoothly... Vista, you can't. (Well, not without a ton of tweaking, turning off services and such). The point is, people want most of their resources dedicated to their applications, not their OS.

To an individual... that may not mean all that much, because they will most likely have a beefy enough machine to handle the hogging... for the enterprise... it means alot, because cheap business class computers need to be able to do the work without spending a ton of money on hardware. The extra RAM and CPU to do the same thing with 7, adds up when one is replacing several hundred machines a year. Moreso back when Vista came out than now, but you get the gist of it, I assume.
 
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26. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 12:25 HorrorScope
 
Julio wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 10:14:
-All the locking down means I mights as well just use a non-Microsoft console and not bother having a PC.

Yeah I'm going to have to research some, what new lock downs are they doing? Etc. They do add more every release, have they gone of the deep end?
 
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25. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 12:19 HorrorScope
 
Dev wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 06:28:
Why the "hate"?

Well maybe also its MS making it so metro stuff MUST be sold through MS store since windows won't let you install unsigned apps and the only way to get it signed is to go through MS, and MS can refuse to allow you to buy a signature for an app for any reason? What you want to get that free open source tool that does something very handy in metro flavor? DENIED.

Sounds like we have a choice each purchase or a developer has a choice when they design their apps? Do I want this Metro App? Do I want to design this in Metro and deal with MS or traditional and keep things the same as they ever was?

If it was "only metro apps work in 8 and all apps go through MS", then I would completely laugh Win 8 off and Balmer has to go worse than the gnome at USPS. We could be approaching that... Balmer should have been gone a long time ago with the companies performance.
 
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24. Re: Blizzard/Valve and Win8 Jul 28, 2012, 12:13 HorrorScope
 
jdreyer wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 00:14:
eunichron wrote on Jul 27, 2012, 20:50:
Well there you have it... the two largest PC video game makers speaking out against Win8. Both companies already simultaneously develop for MacOS and Windows, and Valve is expressing sincere interest in Linux. Something is going to give... either Microsoft will realize it's shitty decisions with Win8 and make more desktop oriented SKUs, instead of forcing clunky and terrible tablet interfaces, or desktop gaming will move to another platform. In case of the latter I would prefer Linux over MacOS, though.

I dunno, Vista was horrible, and that didn't drive developers and customers to Linux. And no one stopped developing for Dx9c just b/c of Vista/W7 either. In fact, only one game ever has been built from the ground up for DX10: BF3. Anyone who hates W8 will just stay with/buy W7 instead.

Personally, I'd love it of all the games were developed for Linux so I can stop giving MS $100 every few years, but I don't see that happening. And W7 is a pretty excellent OS, IMO. So, they screw up W8, no one buys it, and W9 is a vast improvement. Sounds good to me.

Vista isn't horrible, lack of support of drivers and turning off UAC would have done wonders for it.

There have been other games built from the ground up for DX10.

Gabe's a bit of a drama queen to. Didn't he go off on the Ps3 and one point and now Steam is on the PS3? Makes him look a bit silly there.
 
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23. Re: Blizzard/Valve and Win8 Jul 28, 2012, 11:38 wtf_man
 
jdreyer wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 00:14:
I dunno, Vista was horrible, and that didn't drive developers and customers to Linux.

No... it made people stick with XP. (which is partially the reason developers stuck with DX9...the other reason (to this day) is the Xbox 360)
And... some did flock to OSX (As I did for my non-gaming machine)

However, that was really coincidence, since I was fascinated with Leopard's features (at the time), and since Macs were intel based, I knew I could run my non-gaming windows apps on them. It really had nothing to do with Vista, since I just stuck with XP on my gaming rig until 7 was available. My point is, though... Mac sales went up quite a bit during the Vista era.

At work, we also skipped Vista and we are still deploying 7 as we rotate out old XP machines. It will be a couple of more years to get rid of XP since the machines are on a 5 year rotation (and most of these XP machines are downgraded from Vista purchases), and we're not allowed to just buy / upgrade the OS. That said, we have zero intentions of going to 8.

This comment was edited on Jul 28, 2012, 11:52.
 
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22. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 10:14 Julio
 
Evil Timmy wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 06:18:
I'm still wondering where all the complaints about Windows 8 are coming from.

Besides everything already mentioned in this thread...

-Its a big button tablet OS which looks like crap on a PC
-All the locking down means I mights as well just use a non-Microsoft console and not bother having a PC.

I guess for using the internet I'll have to look at Apple or other options (and I literally have no Apple products as I prefer non-locked down systems). But if Microsoft goes ahead and screws us all, I'll give Apple (and their great human rights) my cash ahead of Microsoft.
 
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21. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 09:17 Eirikrautha
 
Dev wrote on Jul 28, 2012, 06:28:
Why the "hate"?

Well maybe also its MS making it so metro stuff MUST be sold through MS store since windows won't let you install unsigned apps and the only way to get it signed is to go through MS, and MS can refuse to allow you to buy a signature for an app for any reason? What you want to get that free open source tool that does something very handy in metro flavor? DENIED.

Maybe its MS making the minimum price of metro apps $1.49?

And didn't I read something about that the new version of MS express studio will only do metro apps?

Maybe its MS getting OEM's to put mandatory BIOS enforcement on only booting "secure" OS options? Those options being windows... and windows. If you buy a dell and want to put a random flavor of linux on it, tough crap.

Maybe its MS tripling the price of windows 8 on phones for the OEMs?

I haven't even touched on things like metro not even being windows since metro stuff only runs full screen (or nearly so).


Some of this stuff is probably illegal in some countries. Of course MS will just swallow a multi hundred million dollar fine and call it the cost of doing business. They've done it in the past. Heck, they lost $4 billion all told on xbox 1 (after including all profits from things like software) and called it the price of entering the console market.

QFT!

And let's not forget that MS considers Metro to be THE UI in W8. That means, while they might allow legacy desktop in W8 for backwards compatibility, that they consider the desktop dead. So there is no guarantee that they will include the desktop at all in W9 (and have hinted that they won't). Hint number one: until the outcry made them change it, VS2012E would only compile Metro apps. That means no windows (in your "Windows" 8) and MS approval before deployment.

MS sees the Metro UI as the future of their OS (to help them lock down content). Morons who blindly ignore what they are trying to do annoy me as much as the morons who decry the direction that modern developers are going and still bought Diablo 3 ("I don't like always-on requirements for single player or over-monetization of games... but it's Diablo!")...
 
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20. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 06:28 Dev
 
Why the "hate"?

Well maybe also its MS making it so metro stuff MUST be sold through MS store since windows won't let you install unsigned apps and the only way to get it signed is to go through MS, and MS can refuse to allow you to buy a signature for an app for any reason? What you want to get that free open source tool that does something very handy in metro flavor? DENIED.

Maybe its MS making the minimum price of metro apps $1.49?

And didn't I read something about that the new version of MS express studio will only do metro apps?

Maybe its MS getting OEM's to put mandatory BIOS enforcement on only booting "secure" OS options? Those options being windows... and windows. If you buy a dell and want to put a random flavor of linux on it, tough crap.

Maybe its MS tripling the price of windows 8 on phones for the OEMs?

I haven't even touched on things like metro not even being windows since metro stuff only runs full screen (or nearly so).


Some of this stuff is probably illegal in some countries. Of course MS will just swallow a multi hundred million dollar fine and call it the cost of doing business. They've done it in the past. Heck, they lost $4 billion all told on xbox 1 (after including all profits from things like software) and called it the price of entering the console market.

This comment was edited on Jul 28, 2012, 07:31.
 
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19. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 06:18 Evil Timmy
 
I'm still wondering where all the complaints about Windows 8 are coming from. At least the bitching about Vista was somewhat justified: because of fundamental changes under the hood and not enough lead time for third parties, driver and app support were sorely lacking on release. Windows 7 was a glorified service pack to Vista, but had enough interface tweaks and years of settled drivers to really run well. Windows 8 seems to be getting a lot of flak for the new Start screen, but I find myself using it for, oh, thirty seconds in a two hour period. Press Start, type name of app, press Enter. Maybe glance at the forecast or a headline.

Other than segregating the different searches (apps, settings, and files) and not making it easy to switch between or combine them, at least the new Start menu is in some way useful. With a fast search, since Vista onwards the rest of the Start menu has been purely vestigial; why hunt through a list or menu when you obviously know the name of the program you're trying to start? Going back to other people's computers with XP and having to do so just feels backwards. In addition, 8 feels and is faster, it's leaner due to the tablet influence and boots in roughly half the time on my PC vs 7 (non-SSD). The Task Manager has probably seen the best improvement, along with being able to "reset" Windows without a reformat, but all in all this feels like the most consumer-tested Microsoft product I've encountered due to the multitudinous little tweaks.

So, again, why all the hate? Getting rid of the useless Start menu is a change, yes, but not an unneeded one. Clicking through folders as a way of organizing data is a dated idea, and slow, and that kind of structure is fading from modern computing in a general and fundamental way. Realistically, people will bitch and moan, then get used to it, then complain again when their Metro Start screen gets taken away in favor of the next interface paradigm. Touch will dominate through the next decade, then we'll be complaining that yes, the new direct neural interfaces are great, but Apple is trying to lock us in with their proprietary iGel to reduce the itchiness around the LightJack site, and Microsoft's bundling of the (clearly still beta) Office Cortex Edition is causing bouts of unconsciousness if you try and save PDFs with the trial version. You know, business as usual.
 
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18. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 02:39 crypto
 
Will PC gaming become increasingly based on streaming and browser-based solutions?


If it does, I'm out.

out...? out like how... do you mean, like, go outside? or maybe get a hobby?? Are you talking about gardening? Just what else would you do... i'm confused
 
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17. Gary Gygax Jul 28, 2012, 01:02 jdreyer
 
Also, too: Gary Gygax, RIP.

My love of computer gaming has its roots in the D & D starter set Mom got me out of the blue back when I was 12. My wife loves going through my notebooks of dungeons and drawings that set inspired.
 
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16. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 00:23 Prez
 
Where would you go?

I would just learn to content myself replaying the games of the past on better OS's than Windows 8.
 
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15. Re: etc., etc. Jul 28, 2012, 00:16 jdreyer
 
Prez wrote on Jul 27, 2012, 20:50:
If Blizzard and others follow Valve to Linux platforms, what will Microsoft do to lure them back?

I kind of got more of a wistful hope vibe from Gabe Newell's comments on going to Linux, like he would love to but practically it won't happen.
Didn't happen with Win Vista, won't happen this time either.

Prez wrote on Jul 27, 2012, 20:50:
Will PC gaming become increasingly based on streaming and browser-based solutions?

If it does, I'm out.

Where would you go?

Not that it would happen. There's too many folks like us that want stand-alone, client based products for that to happen.
 
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