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Quoteworthy - "Windows 8 is a Catastrophe" - Gabe Newell

"The big problem that is holding back Linux is games. People donít realize how critical games are in driving consumer purchasing behavior," says Valve's Gabe Newell as quoted on AllThingsD. "We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. Itís a hedging strategy. I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think weíll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If thatís true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality." Thanks VG247.

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165 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 4.
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105. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 00:41 Cutter
 
Mad Max RW wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 20:56:
Let's all go back to DOS.

Not that far. Autoexec.bat and congfig.sys were such a pain for getting games to run. Win98 on the other hand...
 
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"The South will boogie again!" - Disco Stu
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104. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 00:26 Dev
 
Warskull wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 00:12:
The VPs and CEOs are going to take one look at this and want the desktop back.
No... no. That will be the IT people. The VPs and CEOs with their tablets are going to love that its the same interface on their expensive touchscreen laptops and expensive touchscreen desktops. Their secretaries are the ones that are going to have to deal with the new version of office.

And they are going to want to put their mark on the company, so they will be pushing to "upgrade" technology at the company by getting windows 8. Perhaps they will be getting a kickback from a vendor trying to push a new version of a product that works with win 8. Its going to be everyone else thats experiencing the pain, not the VPs and CEOs.
 
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103. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 00:12 Warskull
 
ASeven wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 19:09:
I'll take a risk and say that Win8 may be the least sold Windows OS version for desktop PCs ever. I can't see anyone who cares about their PCs getting Win8, it offers nothing compared to Win7, in fact it takes away stuff.

Business computers are a huge market for windows. The people running companies tend to be older and not as technologically savvy. It took people time and effort to learn how windows works. The forced Metro interface is going to throw all that out the window. The VPs and CEOs are going to take one look at this and want the desktop back.
 
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102. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 00:11 Dev
 
noman wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 19:56:
the right click context menus are completely absent. Usually after right click, you have to travel some ways on the monitor to make the selection
[...]
ClearType (and the new DirectWrite) is somewhat inconsistently applied across the entire OS, and even turning off the feature in control panel or tweaking the setting doesn't take effect properly.
Oh joy, so they are taking away features from previous windows? Yeah I'm going to LOVE having 100 items listed in my right click.
As for direct write, that's been the case in previous versions of windows. I had to turn that off in steam to get readable text. And while researching it I found out that the last couple versions of IE don't follow the system settings on that in vista or windows 7. Even if you disable it in both windows and IE, parts of IE still ignore that and keep using it.
Cyanotetyphas wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 00:08:
Someone should kickstart a Linux gfx card obviously.
Yes, because $100 million is so doable for something like that.
 
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101. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 00:08 Cyanotetyphas
 
eunichron wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 21:47:

The only thing holding Linux back is lack of support. As it is hardware vendors in the enthusiast market only put out Linux drivers just to throw Linux users a bone. If as much effort was put into making solid, performance oriented, drivers for Linux as they are for Windows, I have no doubt that Linux might perform as good if not better than a Windows machine.

The only way that kind of support is going to happen is if there's a monetary reason driving it, such as Steam moving to a primarily Linux focus.

Someone should kickstart a Linux gfx card obviously.
 
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100. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 00:00 Jay
 
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 23:51:
Clint Eastwood would say "They better build a Win 8 front end for Steam then". Or is that something not possible?

Under current Windows 8 Metro, apps and games have to be digitally signed and certified by Microsoft and installed by MS's Marketplace service. So I wouldn't say it's impossible, but Valve and Microsoft must work out a deal, either to allow Steam storefront to distribute Marketplace games or get Steam games to be signed and approved by Microsoft (and take additional cut of the revenue). I don't see either happening because Microsoft is likely to promote their own distribution service over Steam.

edit: oh if you meant just a Metro live tile that takes you to desktop and launches Steam, then yeah I guess that's much more likely to happen - although Microsoft has the final say on whether that's acceptable or not.

edit2: I just realized what you meant: a Metro Steam app that lets you browse the store and buy games, and possibly allow you to remotely download the games on desktop in the background? I think that's within terms of service (unless, again, Microsoft doesn't allow it), but that would be considered an in-app purchase and Microsoft will take 20% to 30% cut of each transaction (which Valve wouldn't like).

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 2012, 00:16.
 
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99. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 23:55 Dev
 
Prez wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 18:47:
I'm sorry but that is just not true. I got more blue screens in any week I ran Windows ME than I did in a year of using Win 98. ME was terrible compared to Win98; I don't even see how that's arguable.
I totally agree. BSODs were more a daily occurrence, sometimes multiple times a day with ME.

Plus, you guys are talking about 98, it was 98 SE that was the good stuff. After ME was XP, which was outstanding btw. I rarely had BSODS with that, and it was a welcome change from daily BSODS.
ASeven wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 19:09:
I'll take a risk and say that Win8 may be the least sold Windows OS version for desktop PCs ever. I can't see anyone who cares about their PCs getting Win8, it offers nothing compared to Win7, in fact it takes away stuff.
Nope, won't be the case. Since all new PC's and laptops and windows phones and windows tablets will get it. And MS counts those numbers as sold numbers as they've done in the past with other windows.
CJ_Parker wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 19:13:
I fully agree with that other dude in that ME is getting tons of undeserved bashing (and I'd bet real money that the most vocal negativity is coming from people who have never even had ME installed).
Ok, where's my money?
I've used many versions of dos, windows 3.11 WFG, windows 95, 98, 98SE, win ME, XP, vista, 7, and probably others I'm forgetting.
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 19:27:
Sort of like in Vista it was the first to have UAC. Yes that was devil spawn, but we figured out where to go, shut that shit off and relax.
And shutting off UAC can have weird consequences and problems, especially in a corporate environment. Like how VNC has issues with the SAS sequence if UAC is off.
HorrorScope wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 19:55:
I never really really struggled with an OS I suppose. Obviously they were able to get it running well at the MS factory, I was able to somewhat replicate what they were seeing.
Like bill gates and the BSOD while he was trying to demo plug and play in front of the world?

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 2012, 00:07.
 
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98. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 23:51 NKD
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 23:27:
Creston wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 22:41:
I can just picture fat man Balmer throwing a chair and screaming "FUCK GABE NEWELL! WHO THE FUCK DOES HE THINK HE IS? I WILL KILL HIM!" while his face gets all red and swollen and his heart takes three more huge steps to just giving out.

Windows 8 is a fucking joke. It's Microsoft's middle finger to every PC owner.

Creston

Just out of curiosity, if Balmer is fat, Gabe is what? Gargantuan?

I was gonna say, by American standards Ballmer isn't even that fat these days. Newell on the other hand... I worry for his health.
 
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If you don't like where gaming is heading, stop giving your money to the people who are taking it in that direction.
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97. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 23:51 HorrorScope
 
Jay wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 23:45:
Overon wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 21:12:
I'm interested to know what evidence and logic Gabe can offer for his statements about Windows 8.

It doesn't matter how good or bad Win8 is. The fact that steam isn't allowed on metro is reason enough to despise it from Gabe's perspective.
(Win8 only boots into metro, no option to go to desktop by default, and windows marketplace is the only digital distribution service allowed. Period. If you want steam you must switch to desktop which is now brushed aside as legacy by Microsoft with no guaranteed future support)

Clint Eastwood would say "They better build a Win 8 front end for Steam then". Or is that something not possible?
 
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96. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 23:45 Jay
 
Overon wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 21:12:
I'm interested to know what evidence and logic Gabe can offer for his statements about Windows 8.

It doesn't matter how good or bad Win8 is. The fact that steam isn't allowed on metro is reason enough to despise it from Gabe's perspective.
(Win8 only boots into metro, no option to go to desktop by default, and windows marketplace is the only digital distribution service allowed. Period. If you want steam you must switch to desktop which is now brushed aside as legacy by Microsoft with no guaranteed future support)
 
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95. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 23:35 PropheT
 
Tom wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 18:44:
PropheT wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 18:36:
...You totally misunderstood what he said, or didn't think about it at all.

If people have a reason to go use Linux, like games, people (and companies) will be driven to develop for Linux and those problems will disappear with the attention needed to standardize the platform and stabilize the environment as an alternative to Windows.

I don't even know how you would interpret what he said as just being "if you could play games on it Linux would be the BESTEST"...

Oh, so without games, people and companies have no reason to develop for Linux? If only games were there, all those other problems would get fixed? Still sounds like I understood correctly. I just think it's a ridiculous assertion.

Alright, so you didn't miss the point, it just went over your head.

1. Windows 7 is still in the adoption phase by businesses. It hasn't even hit full speed in business use yet, and Windows 8 is about to roll around.

2. Windows 7 is already requiring hardware upgrades to make it a feasible platform. Combined with development costs for in-house software and a number of other things, it's an extremely expensive upgrade. Someone earlier pointed out the graphics capabilities that Win8 is using with 3D acceleration for everything; even among Win7 capable business machines that's still not standard hardware. We'll forget about monitors for now.

3. From a general user standpoint, Win8 is unnecessary right now. PC sales have been battered as it is, and nobody has really forgotten the problems with getting people to even give up XP in the hardware market. It didn't go well for OEM's, and the situation is already coming up again for them.

4. An alternative becomes necessary when the upgrade and implementation costs make it necessary. Microsoft is on top and is uncontested for the most part because Windows is awesome (people argue, but it is). What they're doing now is driving the birth of competition, and the cheapest way for competition to get started is to build off of a Linux base. There's already been a serious upswing in Mac use for the same reason, I don't think it's hard to envision a stable and competitive Linux-based platform competing for Windows market share as a result of Windows 8... like Chrome OS, for example, that isn't ready now but could be in the next year or two.


All of these things are contingent on the fact that gaming as it is on PC's now requires a healthy PC market, something Windows 8 -could- do ok with, but could also cause long-term damage to.

5. For gaming specifically, Gabe isn't the first person to even say this. Brad Wardell did back in March, too. I'll let him list the reasons instead of typing them here:

http://kotaku.com/5897763/three-killer-problems-that-threaten-windows-8

There's other stuff but I'm getting bored and don't feel like Googling any of it. That should be enough to get the point anyway.
 
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94. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 23:27 RollinThundr
 
Creston wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 22:41:
I can just picture fat man Balmer throwing a chair and screaming "FUCK GABE NEWELL! WHO THE FUCK DOES HE THINK HE IS? I WILL KILL HIM!" while his face gets all red and swollen and his heart takes three more huge steps to just giving out.

Windows 8 is a fucking joke. It's Microsoft's middle finger to every PC owner.

Creston

Just out of curiosity, if Balmer is fat, Gabe is what? Gargantuan?
 
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93. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 23:01 Endo
 
RollinThundr wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 21:14:
NKD wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 20:51:
Prez wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 20:29:
The biggest thing Windows 8 has working against it in my views is how awesome Windows 7 is. I never even considered Vista for the same reason - I saw no reason to upgrade from XP, which was fabulous (and still is - 3 of my machines still run it and they just purr along without a hitch). Their business model may now rely on frequent OS releases, but I think that really works against them.

Frequent releases can work out in their favor, provided they do it right. People hate change. Any change, for better or worse, requires people to adapt to it. This is especially true of interface changes as it effectively slows you down.

The more incrementally you make that change, the more accepting people will be of it. After Windows 8, Microsoft needs to do a new version every two years with mostly incremental improvements and a cheap upgrade cost. It'll cut down on piracy and ease upgrade shock.

Mashiki Amiketo wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 20:48:
Probably the best since Win2000.

Win2k is the most under-appreciated Windows of all time, probably because it only had a very narrow window between 98 SE and XP. I started using it from RTM and didn't switch to XP until XP got its launch troubles sorted out. It was an amazing OS. As solid as NT, and surprisingly few troubles with games. I only had to do workarounds for a couple titles IIRC.

I have to agree NKD, I ran 2000 for a year or so some years back and it was solid as hell.
I loved Win2K as well, but it was never meant to be a consumer OS. That's what ME was for. LOL. Anyow, I ran Win2K on my main box from about the time XP was released until Vista was released, which was when I finally gave in and upgraded to XP. To this day I still like 2K better than XP, for various reasons I won't go into here.
 
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92. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 22:49 Endo
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 18:30:
Eh, all I know is that MS seems locked in to the 1 bad OS release followed by 1 good OS release cycle.

By that logic:

98 - Good
ME - OH God, is there a word that describes how bad that was?
XP - Good
Vista - WTF? NO!
7 - Good
8- Going to be bad? Most freakin' likely.

(No, I'm not counting the Enterprise centered NT OSs before they merged with consumer level.)
It goes back even further than that.

1 - not sure, haven't heard much about it
2 - god-awful OS
3 series - very solid OS for its day, and loved by pretty much anyone who used it
95 - Awful. Brand new UI was the only thing good about it. Lots of people stuck with 3.1 or 3.11 until 98 came out.

The reason it works out this way is because every other release they try to cram too much new crap in and make a mess. Then, on the in-between release they just focus on fixing all the shit they screwed up on the previous one. I'd tell you to guess which one 8 will be, but you already have and it's too painfully obvious.
 
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91. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 22:41 Creston
 
I can just picture fat man Balmer throwing a chair and screaming "FUCK GABE NEWELL! WHO THE FUCK DOES HE THINK HE IS? I WILL KILL HIM!" while his face gets all red and swollen and his heart takes three more huge steps to just giving out.

Windows 8 is a fucking joke. It's Microsoft's middle finger to every PC owner.

Creston
 
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90. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 21:47 eunichron
 
Lorcin wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 20:46:
Running linux on a pc is much akin to my mobile phone. My phone runs a custom firmware hack to get the android 2.3 OS running on a handset that Sony Ericsson have never updated beyond android 2.1.

The problem is although I researched and worked out exactly what I needed to do for a weekend to take it from stock to custom OS, now 3 months later apparently updates are available for it. But I can't for the life of me remember which hoops and loops I need to jump through to get the updates installed - and frankly I can't be bothered to relearn.

Until linux offers SIGNIFICANTLY improved performance vs windows ?? then I'm afraid I'll end up sticking to windows because it's easy to learn and helpfull (yeah mainly overly helpful but meh)

The only thing holding Linux back is lack of support. As it is hardware vendors in the enthusiast market only put out Linux drivers just to throw Linux users a bone. If as much effort was put into making solid, performance oriented, drivers for Linux as they are for Windows, I have no doubt that Linux might perform as good if not better than a Windows machine.

The only way that kind of support is going to happen is if there's a monetary reason driving it, such as Steam moving to a primarily Linux focus.

But then again no amount of closed source support is going to stop the "Free as in Freedom" crowd from bitching.
 
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89. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 21:44 Sepharo
 
Elricsi wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 21:41:
I liked Me as a consumer OS, of course not for business or as a server or anything. I would always just use Firefox as the browser, not that crap IE.

Whenever one of my relatives or co-workers fried their compy I would drop Me on there. (No phone home to activate, and they always lost their XP key and/or disk.)

So what if it would crash every other day. Just reboot and get back to Minesweeper, Spider Solitaire and web based research.

You had ME and Firefox at the same time? :-mindblown-:
 
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88. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 21:43 Dades
 
Lorcin wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 20:46:
Running linux on a pc is much akin to my mobile phone. My phone runs a custom firmware hack to get the android 2.3 OS running on a handset that Sony Ericsson have never updated beyond android 2.1.

The problem is although I researched and worked out exactly what I needed to do for a weekend to take it from stock to custom OS, now 3 months later apparently updates are available for it. But I can't for the life of me remember which hoops and loops I need to jump through to get the updates installed - and frankly I can't be bothered to relearn.

Until linux offers SIGNIFICANTLY improved performance vs windows ?? then I'm afraid I'll end up sticking to windows because it's easy to learn and helpfull (yeah mainly overly helpful but meh)

Your example of running a custom ROM for your Android phone is nothing like running Linux on a PC. Most modern distros take the work out of everything, it is nothing like running Slackware 10 years ago. Since you mentioned it, upgrading a custom ROM is usually as simple as dropping the file into storage and going into recovery mode, it's the initial rooting process that takes awhile. Next time I'd get a Nexus device, it's what Google targets as a hardware base and it gets timely OTA updates for at least a few years.

I liked Me as a consumer OS, of course not for business or as a server or anything. I would always just use Firefox as the browser, not that crap IE.
So what if it would crash every other day. Just reboot and get back to Minesweeper, Spider Solitaire and web based research.

Firefox wasn't even released until 2004, I'm not sure why you were putting Windows ME on other peoples computers when Windows XP was out in 2001 and already a better operating system right out of the gate. Just reboot every day, seriously? Amazing.
 
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87. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 21:41 Elricsi
 
I liked Me as a consumer OS, of course not for business or as a server or anything. I would always just use Firefox as the browser, not that crap IE.

Whenever one of my relatives or co-workers fried their compy I would drop Me on there. (No phone home to activate, and they always lost their XP key and/or disk.)

So what if it would crash every other day. Just reboot and get back to Minesweeper, Spider Solitaire and web based research.
 
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86. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 25, 2012, 21:33 loomy
 
"Start menu has always been at best useless. So the new metro based start screen can't be worse"

lol the things you say are so bad, I don't know how you can live with yourself.

the start menu is used more than fucking toilets. useless. you mongrel.
 
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165 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 4.
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