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Quoteworthy - "Windows 8 is a Catastrophe" - Gabe Newell

"The big problem that is holding back Linux is games. People donít realize how critical games are in driving consumer purchasing behavior," says Valve's Gabe Newell as quoted on AllThingsD. "We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. Itís a hedging strategy. I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think weíll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If thatís true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality." Thanks VG247.

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165 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 3.
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125. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 08:28 KilrathiAce
 
Overon wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 21:12:
I'm interested to know what evidence and logic Gabe can offer for his statements about Windows 8.

I don't know much but some statements written about windows 8 here got me scared big time, it almost fees like win8 ms is trying to turn pc gaming into xbox live(win8 metro)

Statements from discussion here that got me really sad about windows 8:

- Under current Windows 8 Metro, apps and games have to be digitally signed and certified by Microsoft and installed by MS's Marketplace service. So I wouldn't say it's impossible, but Valve and Microsoft must work out a deal, either to allow Steam storefront to distribute Marketplace games or get Steam games to be signed and approved by Microsoft (and take additional cut of the revenue). I don't see either happening because Microsoft is likely to promote their own distribution service over Steam.

- That sounds naive. Metro apps have to be signed and certified by Microsoft to be allowed onto the store, its not as simple as just making one and putting it out there. I doubt Microsoft would allow in app purchases to be free, their whole business model is literally copying the iOS store so they would want a cut. The longest they would allow any freemium model for is the period it takes them to get a comparable number of apps to iOS and Android

- Win8 only boots into metro, no option to go to desktop by default, and windows marketplace is the only digital distribution service allowed. Period. If you want steam you must switch to desktop which is now brushed aside as legacy by Microsoft with no guaranteed future support

this is quite sad if true, oh god and that also makes me wonder that would also mean every time developer wants to patch or test patch it has to go through that tiresome ms certification oh GOD no. Further I guess if someone wanted to patch metro app/game MS would take fees for every time they push an update just like Xbox live which would be horrible for smaller developers. Guess only hope is that windows 8 desktop/legacy will still be supported but the way things are looking as far as pc gaming goes there is no way in hell i am upgrading to windows 8 from 7. Of course I have faith that many PC gamers if they choose to use 8 they stick to using desktop and that MS doesnt concentrate on metro only.

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 2012, 08:49.
 
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124. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 08:17 KilrathiAce
 
I hope ms dont stop supporting win7 anytime soon because this will be last windows I ever own the way things look ahead.  
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123. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 07:46 InBlack
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 06:53:
I'm always surprised at how many people want Windows to die. Someone on TheVerge yesterday was saying he wants Windows to die so he can have his choice of OS.

Man, remember back in the early 90s, before Windows and when DOS was just mostly, but not wholly, dominant? There were games I wanted to play that didn't come out for my OS. There was other software that looked cool but was the same.

Then Windows came, and I really can't remember the last time I saw a program I wanted but couldn't run because there wasn't one for my OS.

If Windows died we'd at least have several years of that, if not longer. Not every developer would go multiplatform.

Windows may not be the best choice, but having one dominant OS is actually very, very nice for us as gamers. And, if Linux is your second choice, you can dual boot for just the price of used disk space, not additional dollars, giving you freedom to use the OS you want and the OS that runs everything without spending any money to have both.

How is having one dominant OS good for gamers, casuals, or even enterprise users?? Its very nice for Microsoft (Mega $$$) and its kind of cool for developers because they dont have to support multiple OSes and in most cases again because MS will pay them $$$ for exclusivity but in all cases one dominant product is always bad for the consumer.
 
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122. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 07:24 Dades
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 02:10:
I'm pretty certain Valve could just distribute a Metro app for free and use their own in-app purchase method without giving Microsoft a cut of any such sales

That sounds naive. Metro apps have to be signed and certified by Microsoft to be allowed onto the store, its not as simple as just making one and putting it out there. I doubt Microsoft would allow in app purchases to be free, their whole business model is literally copying the iOS store so they would want a cut. The longest they would allow any freemium model for is the period it takes them to get a comparable number of apps to iOS and Android. Xbox Live is the perfect example of Microsofts vision for digital distribution, they get a cut of everything and there are many ads. Considering Steam wants to start offering apps and other things soon there is no way these two will make good bedfellows.

Valve is right, Microsoft is being too heavy handed about several aspects of Windows 8. It's time for a change or at least the threat of one to humble them.
 
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121. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 06:53 Beamer
 
I'm always surprised at how many people want Windows to die. Someone on TheVerge yesterday was saying he wants Windows to die so he can have his choice of OS.

Man, remember back in the early 90s, before Windows and when DOS was just mostly, but not wholly, dominant? There were games I wanted to play that didn't come out for my OS. There was other software that looked cool but was the same.

Then Windows came, and I really can't remember the last time I saw a program I wanted but couldn't run because there wasn't one for my OS.

If Windows died we'd at least have several years of that, if not longer. Not every developer would go multiplatform.

Windows may not be the best choice, but having one dominant OS is actually very, very nice for us as gamers. And, if Linux is your second choice, you can dual boot for just the price of used disk space, not additional dollars, giving you freedom to use the OS you want and the OS that runs everything without spending any money to have both.
 
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120. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 06:27 Kajetan
 
anders wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 05:45:
I cannot see any business using it.
Companies will not use W8. Ever.

Most of them are still using XP (or even W2K) and are slowly starting to upgrade to W7 because the support for XP ends in two years. W8 is NOT intended as a business OS. Its a quickshot aimed at the tablet market where MS hopes to secure a considerable share by forcing consumers to use Metro.

I guess W9 will have a fully optional UI. Maybe the first service pack for W8 will do that. To save W8 when MS still has the chance to turn things around.
 
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119. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 06:17 Julio
 
After reading the thread...

I find it funny to see the couple of Win8 supporters being names I've never read before...guess Microsoft has a few on the payroll.

I'm not sure why a few people are really interested in Balmer and Gabe's waistlines - are they using their pics for their porn collection?

Anyways, Win8 is going to fail miserably on PCs. Smart OEMs will give consumers the option to stay Win7 and by default include Win7 over 8. There's really no problem here, everyone in the industry treat Win8 like its crap, and no problems.
 
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118. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 06:12 theyarecomingforyou
 
If Valve is going to commit to Linux then I'd like to see them develop a Linux distro of their own (with the console talk it's quite possible that they already are). Obviously it shouldn't be required - as Linux is about choice and customisability - but it would be designed and optimised for gaming.

One of the main reasons I use Windows is for gaming and adding Linux support for the vast majority of games on Steam would be a really good start. However, without support for DX10/11 effects it will still be an uphill struggle. Gamers want the latest and greatest and while porting L4D2 to Mac and Linux is great it doesn't mean much if the other 95% of released games don't work.
 
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117. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 05:45 anders
 
Gave win8 a fair go but it is squarely aimed at the tablet/console market IMHO. I cannot see any business using it.  
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116. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 05:15 Dev
 
Spektr wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 03:58:
However, as Steam is concerned, I will choose whatever download app that allows me to choose in which directory and in which drive I can download my games over Steam. That improvement should be a priority for them.
Did you mean collectively, or individually? Collectively its already possible, its the install location for steam.

If you want to individually choose, its possible, just requires using symbolic links. I use a little utility that integrates with the shell. Takes me just a few seconds to relocate a folder.
 
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115. Re: Gabe Newell, confirming what I already knew Jul 26, 2012, 04:28 SM0k3
 
If valve successfully make steam with all/most of it's supporting game linux compatible then good effin' riddance Windows for me. I'll just use Wine or virtualbox if I need to run Photoshop or something.  
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114. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 04:27 2nd_floor
 
I agree with Mr. Newell that games can make a huge difference for a computer system, possibly THE reason, or the second reason why Windows has survived on the desktop, because of games (the other being Office)! Just unfortunate Valve decided to support Linux this late (I'd like to know what Valve thinks about secure-boot).

It is funny that people have kept using Windows through the years though. The GUI has become more and more pretty, I think the Metro GUI looks cool (why is it called Metro though?). I think the problem with Windows is what is happening on the inside. Malware and adware, bugs and security holes plague Windows, but that hasn't stopped the masses from continuing to use it. Until the last few years maybe with a large rise in Mac products, most (80%?) desktops ran Windows. 3/4 computers I ran with Windows Vista got malware on them, and my credit card number was stolen on one of them! Billionaire Steve Ballmer danced up and down and told me Vista was great, fast and secure. He doesn't have to worry about money, maybe he could make sure his software actually is as advertised, haha.

According to Maximum PC, hardware vendors are jumping to Windows 8! Every piece of hardware and software from major companies ALWAYS support the latest version of Windows. Windows 8 to me looks quite pretty. I imagine it will do well, with consumers anyways!

People are smart and intuitive. Linux has learning curves and can need fixes, but when you solve them, the system tends to last longer and is more concrete than Windows is. People can learn Linux. Today it works out of the box almost as cleanly (and is 100x more secure!) as/than Windows does/is. Everything you need to enjoy your computer is installed automatically! It is not difficult to learn. Linux is incredibly more powerful and robust than Windows is.
 
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113. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 04:02 Armengar
 
remember vista and how it flopped? Enterprise didnt buy it. See windows 8? If it remains locked down as much then enterprise wont buy it. W7 will stay (well XP probably will too).

How could an enterprise with a KMS key for instance buy a metro app and install it on 5000 PCs if it is "store only"? There will be a different way to install apps.

edit: indeed there is. Server 2012 will check to see if you have a licence to deploy metro apps. Current 2012 RC doesnt work properly though (it seems).
 
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112. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 04:00 InBlack
 
Microsoft is back to its monopoly schenaningans, I cant believe that only one person mentioned this.

The real problem with Windows8 is that they FORCE you to buy digital content directly through their marketplace, so Steam (and any other NON WIN8 CERTIFIED CONTENT) can suck it...

WHAT THE FUCK??? How the fuck can this be legal? Although to be fair Apple is knee deep in this shit as well, but at least they have a closed system.

Microsoft trying to emulate Apple = BIG FUCKING FAIL.

I saw the writing on the wall when MS decided to make DirectX 10 exclusive to their 'shiny' new OS. People were laughing at me then for even suggesting that Microsoft is doing this to make it more like a console/Mac evnironment where everything is controlled by Microsoft.

One big problem remains for Valve (and others who want to switch to the last truly 'open' IBM compatible OS, Linux):

Microsoft basically made publishers and developers DEPENDANT on its DirectX API, apart from Valve and iD no one even bothes to implement OpenGL which is basically REQUIRED if you want to do games on Linux or any other non-windows environment.
 
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111. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 03:58 Spektr
 
Agent.X7 wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 18:30:
Eh, all I know is that MS seems locked in to the 1 bad OS release followed by 1 good OS release cycle.

By that logic:

98 - Good
ME - OH God, is there a word that describes how bad that was?
XP - Good
Vista - WTF? NO!
7 - Good
8- Going to be bad? Most freakin' likely.

(No, I'm not counting the Enterprise centered NT OSs before they merged with consumer level.)

I agree. I completely ignored Vista and jumped on the win7 wagon a bit late but I didn't regret it. The games run faster and smoother.
I even use xp mode to use my old scanner and my own games.

I am prepared to ignore windows 8 wholeheartedly. Vista had directx 10 and 11 to push people to upgrade. Will they be using the same trick again to promote Win8? Maybe in conjunction to the next XBOX to push developers to release games on the two platforms rapidly. That's a strategy that could backfire.

However, as Steam is concerned, I will choose whatever download app that allows me to choose in which directory and in which drive I can download my games over Steam. That improvement should be a priority for them.
I don't wish their demise but I wish developers wouldn't force Steam down my throat. What would happen if steam was killed by competition. The two latest games I bought required steam to install. If Steam discontinued their service, developers would be forced to patch their games or fear everyone including the legit users start cracking them.
 
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110. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 03:15 DangerDog
 
LemonJoose wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 02:17:
He's just pissed that the Windows 8 app store is going to cut into Steam's "turf". It's a disaster for Valve, but competition among app stores is a good thing for video game developers/publishers and video game customers.

Metro is the worst thing to come to the PC ever
 
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109. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 02:24 Dev
 
LemonJoose wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 02:17:
He's just pissed that the Windows 8 app store is going to cut into Steam's "turf". It's a disaster for Valve, but competition among app stores is a good thing for video game developers/publishers and video game customers.
Pretty sure forcing all metro apps to be sold through MS store and approved by MS isn't called competition.
 
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108. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 02:17 LemonJoose
 
He's just pissed that the Windows 8 app store is going to cut into Steam's "turf". It's a disaster for Valve, but competition among app stores is a good thing for video game developers/publishers and video game customers.  
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107. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 02:10 theyarecomingforyou
 
Jay wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 00:00:
edit2: I just realized what you meant: a Metro Steam app that lets you browse the store and buy games, and possibly allow you to remotely download the games on desktop in the background? I think that's within terms of service (unless, again, Microsoft doesn't allow it), but that would be considered an in-app purchase and Microsoft will take 20% to 30% cut of each transaction (which Valve wouldn't like).
I'm pretty certain Valve could just distribute a Metro app for free and use their own in-app purchase method without giving Microsoft a cut of any such sales. Otherwise it would be a clear violation of anti-competition laws, which have already got Microsoft in a lot of trouble before. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft was investigated by the EU and other regulatory bodies anyway, as it's not possible to run Metro apps that don't come from the Windows Store and they have complete control over what is and isn't approved. Heck, they've already being investigated over their decision not to allow other browsers to run on Windows RT.

Technologically Windows 8 is great. However, Microsoft has made a lot of questionable moves from a business perspective... some of which might be outright illegal. For instance, currently they are limiting the number of manufacturers that can build Windows RT tablets. They simply won't allow some OEMs to make them.
 
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106. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 02:03 NegaDeath
 
I suppose one could look at it this way. The Vista debacle forced MS to buckle down and hammer out the flaws, giving us one of the best MS OS's ever in 7. Maybe 8's inevitable failure will do the same for 9.  
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165 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 3.
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