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Quoteworthy - "Windows 8 is a Catastrophe" - Gabe Newell

"The big problem that is holding back Linux is games. People donít realize how critical games are in driving consumer purchasing behavior," says Valve's Gabe Newell as quoted on AllThingsD. "We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. Itís a hedging strategy. I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think weíll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If thatís true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality." Thanks VG247.

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145. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 12:15 Bhruic
 
Verno wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 10:33:
I've been trying to ignore that part of the thread but I just have to say that Windows ME was a widely acknowledged disaster that even Microsoft regrets.

Time truly is the healer of all wounds, you guys are so silly

Not really silly, what it comes down to is personal experiences. It doesn't matter if 99.9% of the people have a shitty experience with something, if your experience with it is great (well, assuming you don't have to troubleshoot anyone else). This happens so constantly it's a wonder that people are still surprised with it - the old "well, I didn't run into any bugs, so the game is fine" line for example.
 
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144. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 12:10 Dev
 
Julio wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 06:17:
Anyways, Win8 is going to fail miserably on PCs. Smart OEMs will give consumers the option to stay Win7 and by default include Win7 over 8. There's really no problem here, everyone in the industry treat Win8 like its crap, and no problems.
Yeah and remember how MS forbade that after a while when vista came out and companies were still loading XP on as an option? After a few months MS said no one was allowed to do that anymore. They are going to do the same thing with win 8, I guarantee you.
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 09:18:
I'm incredibly surprised that Microsoft has opted to disallow any Metro app that isn't sold through the Windows Store, as that to me seems to be deliberately anti-competitive. It prevents companies like Amazon offering their own store, as they do on Android.
Why would you be surprised by anything MS does like this? They've done as bad or worse in the past. They are in fact fairly well known to do anything they can get away with, and then some that they can't.
Jay wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 10:37:
Is it still considered anti-competitive when Windows 8 isn't out yet and its marketshare and dominance is yet to be seen?
What seems to me that happens is the lawsuits happen after something comes out and take years. By then its a moot point and MS already has an iron fist control. Like the IE lawsuits, did anyone really care that MS had to put an option into the OS that asked if you wanted a different default browser? No, the ability to change default browser to firefox was something that was built into firefox for years (and other browsers were the same).

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 2012, 12:22.
 
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143. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 11:58 Verno
 
However, I don't think Microsoft can legally do what you're suggesting.

I'm not sure why you think that, Apple is doing it right now. Microsoft will do it too. As long as they provide a mechanism for allowing competing apps to exist (note they don't have to be metro apps and they don't have to be on the store) then I doubt anyone will care enough to challenge it and even if they do it will be resolved years after the fact and far too late. The fines don't really matter in the larger scheme of things, even the billion dollar ones pale in comparison to the revenue they derived through unfair competition.
 
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142. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 11:27 theyarecomingforyou
 
Verno wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 10:49:
They allow the idea of selling content through apps, for example a game that sells some sort of unlockable or whatever. I'm not so sure they will allow an app to sell actual games and other apps. In fact past precedent would cast a lot of doubt on that assumption. Companies would just make every app free and sell content directly to avoid paying Microsoft a cut of the proceeds. Microsoft itself is pretty aggressive about monetizing its platforms, as someone else pointed out XBL is an extreme example of that.
I understand where you're coming from, especially as XBL epitomises controlled user experiences (lack of free content, requirement to charge for updates, expensive certification process, etc). However, I don't think Microsoft can legally do what you're suggesting. Microsoft has been investigated - and fined - numerous times now by various regulatory bodies. Companies like Valve cannot afford to have Microsoft take an extra 20% cut on every sale, nor should they have to.

Then again, Microsoft does seem to be very determined to piss of everybody with Windows 8. Microsoft has already been fined for anti-competitive practices regarding Internet Explorer and yet it's decided to prevent all other browsers from running on Windows RT (ARM version of Windows 8). If Microsoft doesn't allow a way for third-party WinRT apps to do in-app purchase without the Windows Store then they're just lining themselves up for another record fine.

It's a shame that Microsoft is fucking things up with Metro apps, as Windows 8 is actually a decent OS (despite what many claim).
 
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141. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 11:00 Jay
 
Theo wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 10:16:
its a few lines of config to dissmiss the metro shell on boot. Its also hardly taxing to manually dissmiss it. Metro is more like a start menu/task/widget manager than a full shell.

A tiny bit more complicated than that: you need to create a shortcut and set up the task scheduler to launch shortcut upon boot:
how-to-boot-to-the-desktop-skip-metro-in-windows-8

Most people wouldn't know how, or even bother (like you said, the desktop is just a single tap/swipe away) and I bet that's what Microsoft is counting on.
Although I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft added the option themselves due to overwhelming complaints. Remember how the free version of Visual Studio 2012 wouldn't allow desktop apps to be created (only Metro apps) until there was a huge outcry on social media? It's not too late for them to change their mind.
 
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140. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 10:49 Verno
 
Oh cool, I didn't know they allowed 3rd party transactions - although as Verno mentioned Microsoft gets final say on what's allowed or not.

They allow the idea of selling content through apps, for example a game that sells some sort of unlockable or whatever. I'm not so sure they will allow an app to sell actual games and other apps. In fact past precedent would cast a lot of doubt on that assumption. Companies would just make every app free and sell content directly to avoid paying Microsoft a cut of the proceeds. Microsoft itself is pretty aggressive about monetizing its platforms, as someone else pointed out XBL is an extreme example of that.

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 2012, 10:59.
 
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139. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 10:37 Jay
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 09:18:
Microsoft allows you to make in-app purchase externally to the Windows Store (app certification [4.7]); although it doesn't explicitly state so, that should avoid Microsoft taking a cut of the transaction (the same goes for ads). The trade-off is that the user is prompted every time an external transaction is made. However, if you are indeed correct - which is a distinct possibility - then that would have to be a breach of competition law, at least in the EU. Afterall, Microsoft is already being investigated by the EU for not allowing other browsers onto Windows RT. Otherwise it would be HUGELY destructive for the entire industry.

Oh cool, I didn't know they allowed 3rd party transactions - although as Verno mentioned Microsoft gets final say on what's allowed or not.

Apple is inching towards similar model with their latest OSX (Mountain Lion) - it won't allow you to install apps that aren't digitally signed by Apple. If you want to run unsigned apps, you have to opt out of the Gatekeeper service (assuming users are tech-savvy enough to know what that is). Their excuse is the same as Microsoft's: keep malware out and make the system more secure.

I do hope Microsoft gets into trouble by breach of competition law, as you said, but I'm not familiar with the law to know if that will be the case. Is it still considered anti-competitive when Windows 8 isn't out yet and its marketshare and dominance is yet to be seen?
 
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138. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 10:33 Verno
 
I've been trying to ignore that part of the thread but I just have to say that Windows ME was a widely acknowledged disaster that even Microsoft regrets.

Time truly is the healer of all wounds, you guys are so silly
 
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137. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 10:18 rkone
 
Hah, what a MEss this thread turned out to be.

BTW another vote in the "ME was fine" camp. About the only problem I saw with it was that installing Norton would royally screw it up, but that's hardly a problem with the OS.

Of course I didn't have a LOT of usage time racked up on my own system with it - Win2k rocked!
 
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136. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 10:16 Theo
 
KilrathiAce wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 08:28:
- Win8 only boots into metro, no option to go to desktop by default,

its a few lines of config to dissmiss the metro shell on boot. Its also hardly taxing to manually dissmiss it. Metro is more like a start menu/task/widget manager than a full shell.

 
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135. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 10:12 HorrorScope
 
More related to the article.

Saying Steam should support Linux. Well it's going to also take all their vendors to make Linux games and like most would never get ported as they are years old now.

I wasn't thinking that Steam wouldn't run on Win 8 and the Steam Store wouldn't function on Win 8. That can't be true, right? Yes if that wasn't able to be used anymore because of MS Store vision, that is the biggest game fail ever (that would assume all the others wouldn't work to).

However I have to assume I would have heard loudly that shit storm about Win 8. So if Steam can run and operate like normal on Win 8, I don't know what his main fuss is.
 
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134. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 10:05 space captain
 
also "We are still working on Half Life 3"  
Go forth, and kill!
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133. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 09:42 Beamer
 
InBlack wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 07:46:
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 06:53:
I'm always surprised at how many people want Windows to die. Someone on TheVerge yesterday was saying he wants Windows to die so he can have his choice of OS.

Man, remember back in the early 90s, before Windows and when DOS was just mostly, but not wholly, dominant? There were games I wanted to play that didn't come out for my OS. There was other software that looked cool but was the same.

Then Windows came, and I really can't remember the last time I saw a program I wanted but couldn't run because there wasn't one for my OS.

If Windows died we'd at least have several years of that, if not longer. Not every developer would go multiplatform.

Windows may not be the best choice, but having one dominant OS is actually very, very nice for us as gamers. And, if Linux is your second choice, you can dual boot for just the price of used disk space, not additional dollars, giving you freedom to use the OS you want and the OS that runs everything without spending any money to have both.

How is having one dominant OS good for gamers, casuals, or even enterprise users?? Its very nice for Microsoft (Mega $$$) and its kind of cool for developers because they dont have to support multiple OSes and in most cases again because MS will pay them $$$ for exclusivity but in all cases one dominant product is always bad for the consumer.

Unless that dominant product is a standard. It's resulted in higher prices and less OS innovation, undoubtedly, but I think that's offset by more software availability and arguably more innovation in software.

I'd rather pay more to be able to run everything than have a more competitive OS market and be forced to choose if I want OS A, which has better productivity software, or OS B, which has better games, or OS C, which has a mix.
 
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132. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 09:34 Verno
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 09:18:
Microsoft allows you to make in-app purchase externally to the Windows Store (app certification [4.7]); although it doesn't explicitly state so, that should avoid Microsoft taking a cut of the transaction (the same goes for ads). The trade-off is that the user is prompted every time an external transaction is made. However, if you are indeed correct - which is a distinct possibility - then that would have to be a breach of competition law, at least in the EU. Afterall, Microsoft is already being investigated by the EU for not allowing other browsers onto Windows RT. Otherwise it would be HUGELY destructive for the entire industry.

Except for the part where Microsoft reserves the right to boot your app at will over whatever they please, including you attempting to skirt their rulings over revenue sharing and percentages. Much like the Steam/EA fiasco, there is no way this would play out well. I don't really see Microsoft letting other storefront apps sell games when they compete with the XBL companion app and marketplace. If they do then they will want a cut of sales much like Apple does. Microsoft is a fairly anti-competitive company in general. They wouldn't even let Steam link accounts or do game redemptions for the Portal 2 release recently.

Personally I could care less about getting any Metro apps or not but the casual market dictates a lot of direction in the industry.

Like I had said on another forum, good luck getting MS to license out DirectX to have all of those titles run on Linux. Otherwise, the Devs would have to port the games and we all know how great ports are....

No one said there wouldn't be obstacles but there's always a first step. Wine has come a long way but I agree in general that developer dependence on DirectX is the biggest problem - not drivers, user interfaces or etc.

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 2012, 09:41.
 
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131. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 09:28 wtf_man
 
Kajetan wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 06:27:
W8 is NOT intended as a business OS. Its a quickshot aimed at the tablet market where MS hopes to secure a considerable share by forcing consumers to use Metro.

I guess W9 will have a fully optional UI. Maybe the first service pack for W8 will do that. To save W8 when MS still has the chance to turn things around.

I highly doubt that. They want everyone to go through their store or their cloud apps, including the enterprise. If anything, MAYBE the only OS that will give you a default desktop is Windows X Enterprise, which you will need both a volume license key AND software assurance... which also means you will be paying for an OS twice, since Dell and others can't ship without an OS (other than a few specific models that have Ubuntu).

The other thing that may be being forced, since MS makes even more money... is forcing to virtualize apps with App-V, Citrixt Xenapp, or VMWare ThinApp.... or whole desktops with Citrix Xenapp (Product can to both), Hyper-V, or Vmware vSphere. Either way... MS collects on a Terminal Services license or Software Assurance license for App-V. The beauty of this scenerio though is you don't need to buy a windows PC... you can just buy a linux based thin client like a $300 WYSE terminal or something similar.

Either way... the enterprise is looking at a major cost increase to keep desktops... so, windows 7 will probably be it, until end of life, for most places. (Unless MS miraculously changes it's mind)
 
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130. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 09:27 nin
 
I used to do it, but I don't any more -- simply due to the convenience factor.

I'm the same way. Considering its close to what I do at work, I got tired of doing it in my off hours, and I still get my fill helping family and friends.


And I use http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ to help configure it to my liking.

I love it. Works great!


 
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129. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 09:19 Mr. Tact
 
DangerDog wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 17:14:
I haven't purchased a brand name PC since you could build your own years and years ago, most people build their own or have someone put it together for them. If you can put together a simple lego model you can build your own PC.
I agree building a PC isn't difficult and is a cost savings over buying from Dell, HP, CyberpowerPC, or whomever. However, I disagree "most people" are doing it. Maybe a majority of your circle of friends, but in the general populace? No way. I used to do it, but I don't any more -- simply due to the convenience factor.

As for OS, I'm with you Bats. I was XP until I switched to Win7 a short time ago. And I use http://classicshell.sourceforge.net/ to help configure it to my liking.

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 2012, 09:49.
 
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128. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 09:18 theyarecomingforyou
 
Dades wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 07:24:
That sounds naive. Metro apps have to be signed and certified by Microsoft to be allowed onto the store, its not as simple as just making one and putting it out there. I doubt Microsoft would allow in app purchases to be free, their whole business model is literally copying the iOS store so they would want a cut.
Microsoft allows you to make in-app purchase externally to the Windows Store (app certification [4.7]); although it doesn't explicitly state so, that should avoid Microsoft taking a cut of the transaction (the same goes for ads). The trade-off is that the user is prompted every time an external transaction is made. However, if you are indeed correct - which is a distinct possibility - then that would have to be a breach of competition law, at least in the EU. Afterall, Microsoft is already being investigated by the EU for not allowing other browsers onto Windows RT. Otherwise it would be HUGELY destructive for the entire industry.

I'm incredibly surprised that Microsoft has opted to disallow any Metro app that isn't sold through the Windows Store, as that to me seems to be deliberately anti-competitive. It prevents companies like Amazon offering their own store, as they do on Android.

Regardless, Valve could offer a Steam Metro app for free that doesn't allow in-app purchases that simply operates as a games launcher and news service.
 
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127. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 09:05 gilly775
 
Like I had said on another forum, good luck getting MS to license out DirectX to have all of those titles run on Linux. Otherwise, the Devs would have to port the games and we all know how great ports are....  
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126. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 08:59 Verno
 
I wouldn't call Windows 8 a catastrophe but Metro certainly is on the desktop. I'm not quite sure what Microsoft is thinking, perhaps they think they're still in a position to experiment? They really aren't anymore. The enterprise can't afford their upgrade path, consumers are using their computer budget towards other electronics and we're still in for a rough economic ride for the foreseeable future. The comparisons with XBL are pretty apt, Microsoft has monetized the shit out of that platform to the point of absurdity. If that's how Windows is going to be then I'll put up with messing around with an ALSA config or Wine once in awhile. Besides, Linux is only rough around the edges because its mostly grassroots efforts at building user interfaces and software for it. You convince a shitload of commercial interests to check it out and things change quickly.  
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