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Quoteworthy - "Windows 8 is a Catastrophe" - Gabe Newell

"The big problem that is holding back Linux is games. People donít realize how critical games are in driving consumer purchasing behavior," says Valve's Gabe Newell as quoted on AllThingsD. "We want to make it as easy as possible for the 2,500 games on Steam to run on Linux as well. Itís a hedging strategy. I think Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everyone in the PC space. I think weíll lose some of the top-tier PC/OEMs, who will exit the market. I think margins will be destroyed for a bunch of people. If thatís true, then it will be good to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality." Thanks VG247.

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165 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 1.
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165. Re: Quoteworthy - Aug 1, 2012, 17:11 Dev
 
rkone wrote on Aug 1, 2012, 12:53:
This is a non-issue. Other OS users can turn off the secure signing option. Redhat simply paid $100 to have their kernal signed. Torvalds himself said people are making too much of this.
Ever notice how OEM computers like dell often have about 5% of the BIOS options that buying a motherboard from asus and building your computer yourself have? Thats because dell disables most of those options from being changed or even shown in the BIOS. So changing that option may be not even be possible. And even if it is, if MS can get all these companies to knuckle under to the requirement now, all they have to do in the future with windows 9 is to say that OEMs have to disable access to that option entirely to get the "designed for windows 9" sticker.

And many of those linux companies are NOT paying to sign the kernals. And what if someone wants to modify the kernals themselves? Plus, all the OEMs will be including the certificates from windows already, whereas mostly everyone else is going to be out of luck. How many people do you know that install their own certificates into windows? There's occasionally some need for it, such as not having the MS office prompt come up about unsigned macros. But most of the time people just deal with the prompt, its a pain to try and get something signed and the cert installed, even if you use a self make cert.

Also its not just for the OS. All hardware is supposed to get signed now too or else it won't work in EFI boot. You think hardware makers are going to bother getting every single existing piece of equipment updated and signed to work?

Just because torvalds says something, doesn't make it so. Stallman just said something about it being unethical for valve to try and put games on linux, but that doesn't make it so.

This comment was edited on Aug 1, 2012, 17:17.
 
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164. Re: Quoteworthy - Aug 1, 2012, 12:53 rkone
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Aug 1, 2012, 08:55:
Dev wrote on Aug 1, 2012, 04:27:
Because its supposed to be more secure. Prevent pre-boot time rootkits.

And without that little feature, hardware makers can't slap that little "Designed for windows 8" sticker on.
Maybe. My guess would be the worst case scenario would be a readily available BIOS update would allow the loading of "another OS." BIOS manufacturers are not going to throw away entire portions of their potential customer base.

This is a non-issue. Other OS users can turn off the secure signing option. Redhat simply paid $100 to have their kernal signed. Torvalds himself said people are making too much of this.
 
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163. Re: Quoteworthy - Aug 1, 2012, 09:05 Ant
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Aug 1, 2012, 08:55:
Dev wrote on Aug 1, 2012, 04:27:
Because its supposed to be more secure. Prevent pre-boot time rootkits.

And without that little feature, hardware makers can't slap that little "Designed for windows 8" sticker on.
Maybe. My guess would be the worst case scenario would be a readily available BIOS update would allow the loading of "another OS." BIOS manufacturers are not going to throw away entire portions of their potential customer base.
MS would drop its OEM partnership and both would lose money.
 
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162. Re: Quoteworthy - Aug 1, 2012, 08:55 Mr. Tact
 
Dev wrote on Aug 1, 2012, 04:27:
Because its supposed to be more secure. Prevent pre-boot time rootkits.

And without that little feature, hardware makers can't slap that little "Designed for windows 8" sticker on.
Maybe. My guess would be the worst case scenario would be a readily available BIOS update would allow the loading of "another OS." BIOS manufacturers are not going to throw away entire portions of their potential customer base.
 
Truth is brutal. Prepare for pain.
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161. Re: Quoteworthy - Aug 1, 2012, 04:27 Dev
 
Mr. Tact wrote on Jul 30, 2012, 10:44:
Dev wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 12:16:
Also, don't forget that MS is getting all the major OEMs to set their BIOS to only startup and load "secure" signed OS such as windows 8. So even if you WANT to do linux on a new computer that comes pre-loaded with win 8, you might not be able to.
What incentive would BIOS manufacturers have to exclude all those other OSes? Especially Linux which is heavily used in the corporate environment, a major source of sales.
Because its supposed to be more secure. Prevent pre-boot time rootkits.

And without that little feature, hardware makers can't slap that little "Designed for windows 8" sticker on. MS has a whole list of things they have to do to use that sticker and thats one of them.

MS dictated a bunch of other stuff for windows 7 sticker, and prior to that, for the vista sticker. I think the BIOS thing is the biggest game changer they've tried to sneak through doing that though.
 
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160. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 31, 2012, 19:43 Flatline
 
Verno wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 13:50:
Endo wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 13:08:
With ME it's pretty simple actually. If you bought a new PC that came with ME preloaded you actually had pretty good odds of never having trouble with the OS. But God forbid you try installing it on some other system. In that case you were virtually guaranteed to have no end of trouble.

I don't know, the common advice back then was to downgrade to Windows 98 if you got a PC with ME installed. That's what I did for clients after getting so many Windows ME calls that I could recognize a dozen of its many BSOD dumps. It was notoriously buggy, it had problems both complex (exploitable stack) and simple (large file transfers could literally BSOD it). In addition to be worthless, it's own file restore functionality would continue running frequently after being disabled and so virus authors would dump their code into there. It had severe compatibility problems with many programs. It was just a buggy operating system, a half baked stop-gap that even Microsoft has long regretted.

It's amusing because Vista had many issues but few were anywhere near as severe as Windows ME. Unlike ME, most of Vista's problems were related to drivers. Nvidia and HP were notoriously shitty back then, Nvidia alone caused something 20% of all BSODs Microsoft had projected internally (to be fair though Microsoft often "certified" these). It's a big part of the reason the entire driver model was revisited again for Windows 7.

My first impression of Vista will long be remembered. I was given a laptop to get ready for one of the owners of the company. I turned it on, went through initial setup, and the damn thing BSOD'd on me on the first proper boot up.

Turns out it was the cd burner drivers (which were actually xp drivers but shoved into Vista) but I'll never forget that a new, fresh-out-of-the-box laptop with vista on it blue screened reliably on startup.

That summed up my entire view and experience with Vista. We went back to XP, and I'm retiring the last XP box out of our company tomorrow.

I fully expect to skip Windows 8 too.
 
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159. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 30, 2012, 10:44 Mr. Tact
 
Dev wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 12:16:
Also, don't forget that MS is getting all the major OEMs to set their BIOS to only startup and load "secure" signed OS such as windows 8. So even if you WANT to do linux on a new computer that comes pre-loaded with win 8, you might not be able to.
What incentive would BIOS manufacturers have to exclude all those other OSes? Especially Linux which is heavily used in the corporate environment, a major source of sales.
 
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158. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 30, 2012, 08:43 Ant
 
Vista isn't that bad! ME and 8 are worse. I also made a poll: http://www.aqfl.net/node/10031 ...  
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157. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 27, 2012, 16:07 2nd_floor
 
If Microsoft and Windows have survived things like Windows ME and Windows Vista, I bet Windows 8 will do just fine! Hardware and software vendors jump to anything Microsoft (because Microsoft technology sells, whether it's awful or not, because games and Office run on it).

Windows ME and Windows Vista were not enough of a catastrophe to get Valve thinking people will stop using Windows back years ago, and to write their games for Mac/Linux then?

I think Valve probably sees a problem with Steam on Windows 8, whether technically or market share wise, maybe both, and obviously do not like it! Ha! Valve has never shown any sort of interest in Linux (for 15 years), and nor for Mac OS in 13 years. They are not Linux people, they are hardcore Windows people! "A catastrophe" because they won't be able to run Steam the way they want to!

The GUI on Windows 8 is very different than anything we've seen before on PCs, but I bet most people on here will switch to it. You've all done it for every previous version of Windows, no matter how buggy and virus prone. Why does problematic software from Microsoft sell to millions of people, time after time, when there are really descent alternatives? Do the people reading these threads not get viruses and trojans and other junk on your computers, and have to re-install often?

Modern Linux is not difficult to use. Try a live CD of it, pretty cool stuff! You don't have a giant, "could care less" corporation behind you.

This comment was edited on Jul 27, 2012, 17:56.
 
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156. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 21:26 Sepharo
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 16:14:
Creston wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 15:55:
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 14:21:
I think their plan is to funnel all Xbox users to Surface (or whatever they want to call it) by 2022.

Holy crap 2022.
Surface?
Their tablet.

Formerly, their big ass table.
 
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155. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 16:14 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 15:55:
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 14:21:
Creston wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 14:10:
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 06:53:
Man, remember back in the early 90s, before Windows and when DOS was just mostly, but not wholly, dominant? There were games I wanted to play that didn't come out for my OS. There was other software that looked cool but was the same.

Then Windows came, and I really can't remember the last time I saw a program I wanted but couldn't run because there wasn't one for my OS.

If Windows died we'd at least have several years of that, if not longer. Not every developer would go multiplatform.

Or, you know, you'd just play your games on a console? Like MS WANTS you to do to begin with?

Creston

I think their plan is to funnel all Xbox users to Surface (or whatever they want to call it) by 2022.

Holy crap 2022.

Surface?

Creston

Their tablet.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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154. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 15:55 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 14:21:
Creston wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 14:10:
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 06:53:
Man, remember back in the early 90s, before Windows and when DOS was just mostly, but not wholly, dominant? There were games I wanted to play that didn't come out for my OS. There was other software that looked cool but was the same.

Then Windows came, and I really can't remember the last time I saw a program I wanted but couldn't run because there wasn't one for my OS.

If Windows died we'd at least have several years of that, if not longer. Not every developer would go multiplatform.

Or, you know, you'd just play your games on a console? Like MS WANTS you to do to begin with?

Creston

I think their plan is to funnel all Xbox users to Surface (or whatever they want to call it) by 2022.

Holy crap 2022.

Surface?

Creston
 
Avatar 15604
 
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153. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 14:21 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 14:10:
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 06:53:
Man, remember back in the early 90s, before Windows and when DOS was just mostly, but not wholly, dominant? There were games I wanted to play that didn't come out for my OS. There was other software that looked cool but was the same.

Then Windows came, and I really can't remember the last time I saw a program I wanted but couldn't run because there wasn't one for my OS.

If Windows died we'd at least have several years of that, if not longer. Not every developer would go multiplatform.

Or, you know, you'd just play your games on a console? Like MS WANTS you to do to begin with?

Creston

I think their plan is to funnel all Xbox users to Surface (or whatever they want to call it) by 2022.

Holy crap 2022.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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152. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 14:10 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 06:53:
Man, remember back in the early 90s, before Windows and when DOS was just mostly, but not wholly, dominant? There were games I wanted to play that didn't come out for my OS. There was other software that looked cool but was the same.

Then Windows came, and I really can't remember the last time I saw a program I wanted but couldn't run because there wasn't one for my OS.

If Windows died we'd at least have several years of that, if not longer. Not every developer would go multiplatform.

Or, you know, you'd just play your games on a console? Like MS WANTS you to do to begin with?

Creston
 
Avatar 15604
 
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151. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 14:07 Creston
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 02:10:
I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft was investigated by the EU and other regulatory bodies anyway, as it's not possible to run Metro apps that don't come from the Windows Store and they have complete control over what is and isn't approved.

The EU has no issue whatsoever with Apple doing the same thing, so odds are pretty good that they will have no issue whatsoever with MS going that route.

As for a Steam front-end on Metro, I'm sure MS will be more than happy to allow it, in exchange for 20% of Steam's profits...

Creston
 
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150. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 13:55 Creston
 
NKD wrote on Jul 25, 2012, 19:22:
No one is gonna fucking switch to Linux of all things. I never pegged Newell as being that retarded, but I guess I was wrong.

Quite frankly, a native linux client doesn't do them a shit's worth of good, because what are they going to do? Port 3000 games to Linux all by themselves? I'll look forward to seeing Steamux in 2261 then.

I would guess that they are looking into using a linux distro to create/emulate a functional Windows environment in which their games will run properly. No idea how feasible that is, but I think it's smart of them to try to figure something out before Microsoft completely fucks up Windows beyond hope and suddenly Steam is left standing with a non-functional OS requirement.

Can they make it work? I have no idea. But they're definitely smart for looking into their options.

Creston
 
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149. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 13:50 Verno
 
Endo wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 13:08:
With ME it's pretty simple actually. If you bought a new PC that came with ME preloaded you actually had pretty good odds of never having trouble with the OS. But God forbid you try installing it on some other system. In that case you were virtually guaranteed to have no end of trouble.

I don't know, the common advice back then was to downgrade to Windows 98 if you got a PC with ME installed. That's what I did for clients after getting so many Windows ME calls that I could recognize a dozen of its many BSOD dumps. It was notoriously buggy, it had problems both complex (exploitable stack) and simple (large file transfers could literally BSOD it). In addition to be worthless, it's own file restore functionality would continue running frequently after being disabled and so virus authors would dump their code into there. It had severe compatibility problems with many programs. It was just a buggy operating system, a half baked stop-gap that even Microsoft has long regretted.

It's amusing because Vista had many issues but few were anywhere near as severe as Windows ME. Unlike ME, most of Vista's problems were related to drivers. Nvidia and HP were notoriously shitty back then, Nvidia alone caused something 20% of all BSODs Microsoft had projected internally (to be fair though Microsoft often "certified" these). It's a big part of the reason the entire driver model was revisited again for Windows 7.
 
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Watching: Continuum, Star Trek TNG, Haunt
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148. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 13:08 Endo
 
Verno wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 12:26:
Bhruic wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 12:15:
Not really silly, what it comes down to is personal experiences. It doesn't matter if 99.9% of the people have a shitty experience with something, if your experience with it is great (well, assuming you don't have to troubleshoot anyone else). This happens so constantly it's a wonder that people are still surprised with it - the old "well, I didn't run into any bugs, so the game is fine" line for example.

Meh, I think it's a bit of column A and a bit of column B. Some people forget and other people just make assumptions based on their experience. The whole thing is still pretty silly regardless. I didn't really have any issues with Vista but was well aware they existed and didn't just assume other people were being stupid. Oh well, the human condition.
With ME it's pretty simple actually. If you bought a new PC that came with ME preloaded you actually had pretty good odds of never having trouble with the OS. But God forbid you try installing it on some other system. In that case you were virtually guaranteed to have no end of trouble.
 
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147. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 12:26 Verno
 
Bhruic wrote on Jul 26, 2012, 12:15:
Not really silly, what it comes down to is personal experiences. It doesn't matter if 99.9% of the people have a shitty experience with something, if your experience with it is great (well, assuming you don't have to troubleshoot anyone else). This happens so constantly it's a wonder that people are still surprised with it - the old "well, I didn't run into any bugs, so the game is fine" line for example.

Meh, I think it's a bit of column A and a bit of column B. Some people forget and other people just make assumptions based on their experience. The whole thing is still pretty silly regardless. I didn't really have any issues with Vista but was well aware they existed and didn't just assume other people were being stupid. Oh well, the human condition.
 
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Playing: Divinity Original Sin, Destiny, Fire Emblem
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146. Re: Quoteworthy - Jul 26, 2012, 12:16 Dev
 
Also, don't forget that MS is getting all the major OEMs to set their BIOS to only startup and load "secure" signed OS such as windows 8. So even if you WANT to do linux on a new computer that comes pre-loaded with win 8, you might not be able to.

This comment was edited on Jul 26, 2012, 12:22.
 
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165 Replies. 9 pages. Viewing page 1.
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