38 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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| 38. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 22, 2012, 12:22 |
MoreLuckThanSkill |
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Dead Space 1 and 2 are two of my all time favorite games, I'm somewhat ashamed to say. Everybody pans them for being more shooty than scary, etc. but regardless I still enjoyed the hell out of both of them. I'm playing through Dead Space 2 for the umpteenth time right now, when I'm not playing Warlock or D3 or Krater.
Guaranteed buy for me, possibly not day 1 if they start pulling a lot of same day DLC nonsense/weird pricing schemes. This series has traditionally gone on extreme sales on the PC a few months after release.(under 10 dollars for sure) I may end up waiting a little, but I will DEFINITELY get it. Many of my regular gaming buddies like the series too, and I'll probably do a little coop unless it is completely intolerable.
System Shock 2 vs any of the Dead Space games isn't exactly a fair comparison, imo. That was what, like 1999? Before the industry took off and games became ridiculous multi-million dollar boondoggles. Look to the indie scene for more frightening games(Amnesia).
*EDIT* oops a couple people already mentioned Amnesia, my bad 
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| 37. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 21, 2012, 18:38 |
Jerykk |
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PHJF wrote on Jul 21, 2012, 11:07:
Yes, except imagine how scary Dead Space would be if you were on the same space station without any weapons.
Yeah sorry that isn't how fear works. It's still a video game. You know what Dead Space would be like without weapons? A really boring fucking game that probably wouldn't have sold 1/4 as many copies. System Shock 2 had plenty of weapons and was far "scarier" than Dead Space. Fear in video games is a matter of atmosphere, not vulnerability.
SS2 was scary because you were vulnerable, even with weapons. Enemies did a lot more damage, your weapons degraded with use and you had limited ammo. If you were poisoned, you would die unless you could find an antidote in time. If you were seen by a camera, you'd have to deal with waves of enemies until the alarm ended. In SS2, you always had to be cautious because the risks were so high. In DS, not so much.
Unless you think that SS2 would have still been scary if you had a minigun and regenerating health, it's pretty obvious that vulnerability is an essential component in making a scary game. |
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| 36. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 21, 2012, 16:22 |
Prez |
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Yeah sorry that isn't how fear works. It's still a video game.
That's the main difference. For whatever reason, certain people can't (or won't) allow themselves to get past the fact that something is not real and thus it can't scare them. It may be a factor of how their brain's are wired, an underdeveloped imagination, a desire to not be scared (not everyone actually likes being scared) or something else completely.
I figured this out sort of by accident. I have always had sort of a fear of the ocean, which people find pretty hysterical when they find out I did 9 years in the U.S. Navy. More specifically, I have a distinct unease about being stranded out in it, and generally speaking it's a fear of utter isolation and abandonment. I went submarines, since any catastrophe would almost certainly mean instant death given the awesome pressures present when submerged. I mention this because someone once asked me what the scariest movie I ever saw and was surprised when I said "Open Water" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0374102/. When I watch a horror movie I put myself in the protagonist's place, and the whole premise of that particular movie was, frankly, terrifying to me. I was very surprised to find out many people do not (or cannot) do this. When I was a believer "The Omen" and "The Excorcist" are what made me sleep with the lights on because I believed that stuff could actually happen and I would run the scenarios personalized for myself in my head.
Anyway, a show I watched recently on how the brain works (can't for the life of me remember the name of it) sort of backed up my theory somewhat. Amnesia scared the crap out of me because I forced myself to forget I was playing a videogame in the safety of my house in a quiet suburb. I can almost wish I hadn't too. What a creepy and unsettling game. |
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| 35. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 21, 2012, 13:25 |
Beamer |
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PHJF wrote on Jul 21, 2012, 11:07:
Yes, except imagine how scary Dead Space would be if you were on the same space station without any weapons.
Yeah sorry that isn't how fear works. It's still a video game. You know what Dead Space would be like without weapons? A really boring fucking game that probably wouldn't have sold 1/4 as many copies. System Shock 2 had plenty of weapons and was far "scarier" than Dead Space. Fear in video games is a matter of atmosphere, not vulnerability.
That was Amnesia for me. The "scares" weren't from anything other than poor control scheme and a weak, vulnerable character with limited/no combat skills.
Video games can't scare me anymore. It's an impossibility. It's me, not them, but it will never, ever happen. So games that try to do so by handicapping me just aren't fun to me.
I didn't like Dead Space, either, but I was playing it on an Xbox attached to a 27" CRT and couldn't read a damn thing. It felt like I was just walking forward, shooting off limbs, occasionally turning. The hallways were so cramped that it may as well have been on rails.
I wonder if my experience would have been different had I not tried it during the two week period I was stuck on that TV. |
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| 34. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 21, 2012, 11:57 |
eRe4s3r |
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| That is how I play ALL horror games. And by the gods, If ever I stop playing I can not bring me to actually continue. Which is why for real horror games, I play them in 1 sitting. Or never. |
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| 33. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 21, 2012, 11:07 |
PHJF |
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Yes, except imagine how scary Dead Space would be if you were on the same space station without any weapons.
Yeah sorry that isn't how fear works. It's still a video game. You know what Dead Space would be like without weapons? A really boring fucking game that probably wouldn't have sold 1/4 as many copies. System Shock 2 had plenty of weapons and was far "scarier" than Dead Space. Fear in video games is a matter of atmosphere, not vulnerability. |
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| 32. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 22:37 |
Jerykk |
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SpectralMeat wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 16:23:
Jerykk wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 16:16:
If you want to make DS3 scary, take away the player's weapons. Force them to treat enemies like deadly threats rather than cannon fodder. Isn't that what Amnesia: The Dark Descent is pretty much?
Yes, except imagine how scary Dead Space would be if you were on the same space station without any weapons. Hell, imagine how scary an Aliens game would be with that same premise. |
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| 31. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 21:51 |
Prez |
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PHJF wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 19:21:
I'm not susceptible to horror anymore so I couldn't tell you what works or doesn't. All I said was the WRITING in Alan Wake sucked (as it does in 99.9% of video games), and the gameplay was hohum (which it almost inevitably is in a "survival horror" game).
Look, I was one of those people drooling over Alan Wake the PC Exclusive and accompanying E3 trailer some fifty years ago. This game which is now all of $7.50 on Steam isn't what I had in mind.
I was just bustin' ya. I think it's probably less of a case where you are too hard to please than it is one where I'm just too damn easy to please.  |
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| 30. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 20:28 |
Cutter |
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I can see inside you, the sickness is rising,
It seems that all that was good has died
Oh, no! The world is a scary place!
Now that you've woken up the demon in me.
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| "Are you crazy? Is that your problem?" - Jack Burton |
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| 29. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 19:21 |
PHJF |
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I'm not susceptible to horror anymore so I couldn't tell you what works or doesn't. All I said was the WRITING in Alan Wake sucked (as it does in 99.9% of video games), and the gameplay was hohum (which it almost inevitably is in a "survival horror" game).
Look, I was one of those people drooling over Alan Wake the PC Exclusive and accompanying E3 trailer some fifty years ago. This game which is now all of $7.50 on Steam isn't what I had in mind. |
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| 28. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 18:01 |
SimplyMonk |
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ASeven wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 16:58:
Lovecraftian horror is at both time extremely hard and extremely simple to pull and Amnesia nailed it.
Couldn't agree more. Really looking forward to the sequel. |
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| 27. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 17:55 |
Prez |
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Having just finished Alan Wake (and enjoying it very much), I have been contemplating what it did right in terms of its horror setting, and what it could have done better. When you were running through the woods at night with nothing but a flashlight it had a palpable sense of fear working for it which was definitely good. Even though you could damage the darkness with light it would not kill the taken, only remove the darkness from them, meaning running was your only option. Having guns in the game was okay as long as there was a scarcity of ammo. Once I had maxed out my supplies the fear factor went away and it played more as a straight action game.
Also, the safe havens (usually light poles) were spaced a little too close together imo. Seeing the light pole in the distance removed the fear that came with being uncertain how long you needed to survive before you reached safety. Once or twice, however, you'd reach one thinking you were safe but then the bulb would burst and the taken would attack out of the darkness. Very cool.
All in all the foundation for a deliciously scary sequel is in place; the right tweaks in the right areas and an injection of new unknowns (another key ingredient in horror) and it could easily be a horror classic. Now where is PHJF to tell me I'm off my rocker?  |
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| 26. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 16:58 |
ASeven |
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SimplyMonk wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 16:48:
Prez wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 16:36:
Horror is found in many different ways, and not all of it has to be supernatural - very human serial killers can be and often are great horror fodder. But I think the common variable is always the perception of invulnerability, be it an untouchable supernatural force or a brilliant human killer who leaves no trace, doesn't make mistakes, and is always one step ahead of the police.
This statement left me wanting to play "Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth" again. Or "Amnesia". I almost want to say I would like to see a AAA shot at a Lovecraftian tale, but I know better. In order to pull in AAA required unit sales I don't think I'd like what would be done to the source material.
Lovecraftian horror is at both time extremely hard and extremely simple to pull and Amnesia nailed it. Protagonists in Lovecraft tales are as helpless as a baby facing whatever insanity they face, no matter what weapons they carry. It makes the protagonist vulnerable at every time. Heck, when Inspector Legrasse met the cultists in the swamp, even though his men were heavily armed a couple of them fainted from the insane scene they faced.
Lovecraftian horror is all about making the reader feel as vulnerable as the protagonists no matter what the protagonist has or does and the simple ingenious design of Amnesia nails it. It's all about fearing the unknown and this is something that either game developers get it right (and when they get it right they sure fucking get it right) or get it wrong and the game falls all over the place. |
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| 25. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 16:48 |
SimplyMonk |
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Prez wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 16:36:
Horror is found in many different ways, and not all of it has to be supernatural - very human serial killers can be and often are great horror fodder. But I think the common variable is always the perception of invulnerability, be it an untouchable supernatural force or a brilliant human killer who leaves no trace, doesn't make mistakes, and is always one step ahead of the police.
This statement left me wanting to play "Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth" again. Or "Amnesia". I almost want to say I would like to see a AAA shot at a Lovecraftian tale, but I know better. In order to pull in AAA required unit sales I don't think I'd like what would be done to the source material. |
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| 24. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 16:36 |
Prez |
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In order for a game to be scary, it must do the following:
1) Make the player feel vulnerable.
2) Motivate the player to run and hide rather than stay and fight.
I'd say number one is much more important. Being armed to the teeth is little consolation if you realize that what is after you is either something that can't be shot or is immune to weapons. Your second point is valid but I would tweak it to say "Motivate the player to seek unconventional means of overcoming the obstacles other than shooting it". Anything that is susceptible to the most common things that hurt everyone else just seem inherently less scary to me. That's what made Michael Meyers so scary in my opinion - things that would hurt normal people he would just brush off and keep coming. That, and his unrelenting singlemindedness for murder.
There's nothing scary when the solution to defeating an enemy lies in dwindling down its hitpoint bar with clip after clip of ammo. That can be tense, sure, when your worrying about whether your ammo and health are going to hold out, but it's not scary.
Horror is found in many different ways, and not all of it has to be supernatural - very human serial killers can be and often are great horror fodder. But I think the common variable is always the perception of invulnerability, be it an untouchable supernatural force or a brilliant human killer who leaves no trace, doesn't make mistakes, and is always one step ahead of the police. |
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| 23. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 16:23 |
SpectralMeat |
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Jerykk wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 16:16:
If you want to make DS3 scary, take away the player's weapons. Force them to treat enemies like deadly threats rather than cannon fodder. Isn't that what Amnesia: The Dark Descent is pretty much? |
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| 22. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 16:16 |
Jerykk |
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shihonage wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 14:58:
Kajetan wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 14:42:
shihonage wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 14:19:
Do you guys realize how rare it is these days to get a game with campaign coop? And this justifies the slaughter of a once promising horror franchise?
Does EAs need for crappy F2P games justify the slaughter of the Ultima brand?
I guess the problem is that I do not see the inherent value in the concept of a "horror franchise".
Horror is not gameplay. You can't fine-tune it to work well for everyone. It is highly subjective. And in Dead Space it just meant a lot of dark areas and cheap scares. Dead Space was a spiritual sequel to Doom 3, and I am glad to see it stepping away from that mess.
In order for a game to be scary, it must do the following:
1) Make the player feel vulnerable.
2) Motivate the player to run and hide rather than stay and fight.
None of the Dead Space games do this. If you see an enemy, you kill it. You are a heavily armed badass that slices monsters into small chunks. You are empowered and have no reason to run or hide unless you're being chased by the one invincible monster in both games. Both games have great atmosphere but the gameplay just doesn't match it.
If you want to make DS3 scary, take away the player's weapons. Force them to treat enemies like deadly threats rather than cannon fodder. |
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| 21. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 15:51 |
Kajetan |
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shihonage wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 14:58:
I guess the problem is that I do not see the inherent value in the concept of a "horror franchise". You do not, others do. Different people, different taste, you know
Horror is not gameplay. Yes, it isn't. Its a setting. A setting to which gameplay has to fit to make the setting work
You can't fine-tune it to work well for everyone. It is highly subjective. That is why horror games are for people, who like that kind of game. I dont, but that's not the point. EA is destroying a brand because they desperately NEEEEEEEED revenue. DS3 is targeted for 5 mio. units to be sold. Which does not happen with a horror game, i understand that. For that to accomplish you need a mass appeal action game.
So, why isn't EA just making this kind of game?
Because they already tried that and failed. See Bulletstorm. Sold not even 2 mio. units. Is considered a commercial flop for EA. So they thought: "Hey, let's just use this Dead Space franchise. Perhaps that'll work."
It won't. And that is a good thing. To sell 5 mio. units of an established game brand, where you just changed target groups, you need MASSIVE marketing which will eat up a lot of revenue which will require even more units to be sold.
I like what EA is doing. It all speeds up their final demise.
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| 20. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 15:39 |
SimplyMonk |
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Dead Space was only scary if you played it on the hardest difficulty, by yourself, at night, in the dark, in a lonely shack in the middle of the deep swampland where news of a prison break at the local swamp mental institution/Nazi experimental gene research facility was just released.
Any change to that formula and the game was just a bunch of predictable encounters that were answered with limb removal and a few cheap scares. The end of the game had me wired and twitchy for a little bit though.
The second one was definitely worst in that even with the above environment, it didn't do as good of a job. Now with the third, there is no reason you HAVE to play it co-op (and to be honest after I play it through SP first, I may not mind) but I hope the SP experience is not tarnished any further. |
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| 19. |
Re: Dead Space 3 Co-op & Scariness |
Jul 20, 2012, 14:58 |
shihonage |
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Kajetan wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 14:42:
shihonage wrote on Jul 20, 2012, 14:19:
Do you guys realize how rare it is these days to get a game with campaign coop? And this justifies the slaughter of a once promising horror franchise?
Does EAs need for crappy F2P games justify the slaughter of the Ultima brand?
I guess the problem is that I do not see the inherent value in the concept of a "horror franchise".
Horror is not gameplay. You can't fine-tune it to work well for everyone. It is highly subjective. And in Dead Space it just meant a lot of dark areas and cheap scares. Dead Space was a spiritual sequel to Doom 3, and I am glad to see it stepping away from that mess. |
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38 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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