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Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter

This Kickstarter looks to jumpstart development of Defense Grid 2, a sequel to Hidden Path Entertainment's tower defense game. This one has an interesting approach, as there are funding goals to hit along the way. So if they raise $250K, they will create an eight-level expansion for the original Defense Grid; if they raise $500K they will build a new engine for a Defense Grid 2 remake with co-op multiplayer; at $750K they will add a level editor and other platforms; and if the campaign hits the $1M mark, they will be able to create the full sequel of their dreams. Thanks Bob.

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40. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 16:15 Dev
 
Tumbler wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 15:17:
Where are our $20-$30 games? All I see are $60-$80 games.
They are on kickstarter

dj LiTh wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 15:27:
I dont see kickstarter much different from preordering a game, except that more money will goto the developer and not publisher, with the possibility that the game wont get made and you wont get charged....
That can happen with preorders anyway, even from established companies. All those cancellation news blurbs on bluesnews? Remember people who pre-ordered duke nukem forever like 7 years in advance?
 
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39. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 15:31 nin
 
dj LiTh wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 15:27:
Just to add my own opinion on this big cluster fnck...

I dont see kickstarter much different from preordering a game, except that more money will goto the developer and not publisher, with the possibility that the game wont get made and you wont get charged....

So that said, whats the problem?


You get charged and then the project doesn't produce anything?

Or in this case, you pledge for DG2, but if it doesn't hit one million, you don't get DG2...

 
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38. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 15:27 dj LiTh
 
Just to add my own opinion on this big cluster fnck...

I dont see kickstarter much different from preordering a game, except that more money will goto the developer and not publisher, with the possibility that the game wont get made and you wont get charged....

So that said, whats the problem?

 
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37. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 15:19 dj LiTh
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 14:19:
Hope they are able to succeed...not much of a defense grid fan, each round just takes way to long. I get bored. heheheh

Try holding down the F key
.....


Now back to the flame war <turns on some music, dims the lights, grabs the popcorn>
 
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36. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 15:17 Tumbler
 
Thatís what I was trying to relay across Cutter, Iím all for Kickstarter too but not when a developer is purposely trying to put the burden on the consumer and not pull it from their own pockets. To me thatís BS. You sometimes get the feeling these guys are only trying to line their own pockets.

I guess I'm taking for granted that people understand how much publishers are already doing this.

What are we assuming AAA titles currently cost to make, 20 million? 30 million? And we're looking for sales of 1,000,000 just to break even?

That's $20 - $30 per game if you only sell a million copies. Where are our $20-$30 games? All I see are $60-$80 games.

Are you just ignoring how much worse publishers are by comparison? I don't get it. Where is the upside to doing things that cost consumers 3x-4x more? The industry is at war with itself because there isn't enough money to go around.

There is more than enough money to go around, just not enough to line the pockets of the greedy fucks at the publishers.
 
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35. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 15:06 Darks
 
Cutter wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 14:56:
Quboid wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 14:16:
Before this thread descends (further) into name-calling, I do think there is merit to both sides.

Crowd funding is something of a free-for-all and if you don't like what they're doing, don't join the crowd.

Kickstarter, however, implies the impoverished little guy, who needs a kick to start their project.

I'm all in favour of this sort of thing (when properly labelled). Anything which takes creative control away from the creatively bankrupt publishers is a good thing, however, I can see that this isn't what the Kickstarter ethos is for many people.

That's exactly it. That's like that KS by Thomas Jane yesterday. He wants 600k...are you kidding me? He's rich already. KS is not for multi-millionaires who don't want to risk any of their own money. It's for people who have zilch and a good idea. I really don't want to see KS devolve into a place where rich and/or successful companies/people who can actually afford to fund their own projects but simply don't want to so they ask everyone else. People who really need the resources shouldn't have to compete with that nonsense.

Thatís what I was trying to relay across Cutter, Iím all for Kickstarter too but not when a developer is purposely trying to put the burden on the consumer and not pull it from their own pockets. To me thatís BS. You sometimes get the feeling these guys are only trying to line their own pockets.
 
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34. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:58 Quboid
 
Darks wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 14:49:
Re-Added

<removed>

Didn't Blue remove this before? That's a good way to get banned, it's one thing to break the rules in the moment, but knowingly repeating the offense means Blue has to escalate.
 
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- Quboid
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33. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:56 Cutter
 
Quboid wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 14:16:
Before this thread descends (further) into name-calling, I do think there is merit to both sides.

Crowd funding is something of a free-for-all and if you don't like what they're doing, don't join the crowd.

Kickstarter, however, implies the impoverished little guy, who needs a kick to start their project.

I'm all in favour of this sort of thing (when properly labelled). Anything which takes creative control away from the creatively bankrupt publishers is a good thing, however, I can see that this isn't what the Kickstarter ethos is for many people.

That's exactly it. That's like that KS by Thomas Jane yesterday. He wants 600k...are you kidding me? He's rich already. KS is not for multi-millionaires who don't want to risk any of their own money. It's for people who have zilch and a good idea. I really don't want to see KS devolve into a place where rich and/or successful companies/people who can actually afford to fund their own projects but simply don't want to so they ask everyone else. People who really need the resources shouldn't have to compete with that nonsense.
 
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32. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:49 Darks
 
Re-Added

#$%^ off dude, if youíre too stupid to understand what I was relaying across then youíre a lost cause and part of the problem.

This comment was edited on Jul 13, 2012, 15:06.
 
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31. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:48 Dev
 
Prez wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 14:15:
Sorry, but to me this is a big problem, this is a company that created the first game and it did really well. Now these jerkoffs are trying to soak the community for more money to kick off a part 2 of their game. Something smells very fishy.

So then don't donate. It's that simple. The whole idea behind kickstarter is that the community as a whole decides what passes muster. Everyone claiming that they somehow unilaterally can decide what is and isn't a valid project completely miss the point of kickstarter in the first place. We already have publishers doing that. That's the exact thing kickstarters are meant to get away from.
EXACTLY. And if the community as a whole decides not to fund, then it won't get funded.

Me, I'm fine with them doing it, although I'm not sure I'll personally kickstart it. I'll mark it to remind me which sends me an email 2 days before the end and I'll review it then to see where it is.
 
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30. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:19 xXBatmanXx
 
Hope they are able to succeed...not much of a defense grid fan, each round just takes way to long. I get bored. heheheh  
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29. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:16 Quboid
 
Before this thread descends (further) into name-calling, I do think there is merit to both sides.

Crowd funding is something of a free-for-all and if you don't like what they're doing, don't join the crowd.

Kickstarter, however, implies the impoverished little guy, who needs a kick to start their project.

I'm all in favour of this sort of thing (when properly labelled). Anything which takes creative control away from the creatively bankrupt publishers is a good thing, however, I can see that this isn't what the Kickstarter ethos is for many people.
 
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- Quboid
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28. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:15 Prez
 
Sorry, but to me this is a big problem, this is a company that created the first game and it did really well. Now these jerkoffs are trying to soak the community for more money to kick off a part 2 of their game. Something smells very fishy.

So then don't donate. It's that simple. The whole idea behind kickstarter is that the community as a whole decides what passes muster. Everyone claiming that they somehow unilaterally can decide what is and isn't a valid project completely miss the point of kickstarter in the first place. We already have publishers doing that. That's the exact thing kickstarters are meant to get away from.

How are they jerk-offs for giving you an opportunity to contribute to a game you want to see made, and REWARDING YOU for doing so?

Mind-boggling, isn't it?

NKD wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 13:44:
So? Why is it people seem to think Kickstarter is supposed to be a last-ditch effort for the impoverished? The whole benefit to using Kickstarter for game projects is that you avoid selling out to publishers or other investors if at all possible.

I don't WANT developers to try and get other funding first. I want them to Kickstarter first and try to keep other parties out of it. Kickstarter should be the first resort, not the last resort, for companies interested in using it.

I don't care if they've shipped other titles before. You live in a magical dream world if you think every moderately successful title will earn the developer enough money to fully develop and release yet another project. Sometimes, that just doesn't happen. Their next project could be more ambitious than they can afford to do with cash on hand, or any other number of things.

This view of Kickstarter as a thing for indies to get their first title shipped so that they can subsequently sell out to a big publisher is extremely destructive.

Well-said. Completely agree. It's like people want to go back to the exact same mess kickstarter is meant to get us out of.

This comment was edited on Jul 13, 2012, 14:24.
 
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27. removed Jul 13, 2012, 14:08 Darks
 
* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Jul 13, 2012, 14:10.
 
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26. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:00 jacobvandy
 
Darks wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 13:55:
Sorry, but to me this is a big problem, this is a company that created the first game and it did really well. Now these jerkoffs are trying to soak the community for more money to kick off a part 2 of their game. Something smells very fishy.
These guys made more then enough money to make their sequel. I donít like it when you have developers trying to soak money out of people when they miss managed their funds in the first place. Sorry, but I will not be supporting them on this one.

I already spent money on the first game and liked it but you are not going to tell me that they need that kind of money for assts they already have in place to make a second game.

Itís not like this game has over the top graphics. Its basically using an editor to build the levels then scripting them and making new art. This all sounds too much to me like they are trying to fund their own pockets.

How are they jerk-offs for giving you an opportunity to contribute to a game you want to see made, and REWARDING YOU for doing so? At the basic level, $15 entitles you to whatever game content they put out thanks to this funding, starting with a DG expansion and possibly including a remake with multiplayer on a new engine, a level editor, and a full-blown sequel... Some people want to give more in return for even more rewards (I really want that machine gun tower USB stick but I can't pay $150), so they accommodate that as well. You are being far too offended by something that does not affect you in any way. Grow up.
 
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25. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 14:00 Tumbler
 
I feel it is a problem. Kickstarter is (to my knowledge) supposed to help finance those who have tried and couldn't get financed, a last choice option. Now bigger players are seeing it a a first choice because they don't have to pay back loans so they can maximize profits. Kinda like taking from the poor to help the rich

I'm sure kickstarter could be more strict so that the "the pitch" can't involve stuff that has been successful in the past but I don't see how that makes the whole process stronger.

We're already seeing developers make games that fans love and Publishers still treat them like it doesn't matter because now the new target is this other type of game where they think they can make a gajillion dollars because someone else just did! (See epic and Fortnite trying to jump on the minecraft train)

I like to think that the developer behind Fallout New Vegas would not be struggling to figure out how to "do a better job" on their next game if they were not stuck behind the scam artists that are modern publishers.

I think the fans would come running if those guys had delivered on FO New Vegas from a crowd sourced project and were now trying to see if fans wanted more.

It's going to be some time before we see a franchise that strong being crowd funded but it could happen. Kickstarter projects need time to build. Imagine if wasteland 2 is a runaway hit. Or shadowrun. That could put them on a much larger footing when they come forward and say, "Who's up for Wasteland 3?" What if the first game has been on the front page of steam for weeks at that point and suddenly funding starts growing to 10 to 20 million. These are not hard numbers to reach at all when you look at how many people are funding the projects already hitting 2-3 million. Doublefine only has 88k backers. Wasteland 2 only has 62k backers.

If they sell a million units how hard will it be to get 500k backers? 5-10x current funding numbers would likely be possible if they had a big hit off this first project.

The biggest issue we're going to face is publishers trying to buyout the stuff that gets successful. When these guys see that the first game sold a million copies they're going to come running with money trying to get the devs to sellout and then they'll charge as much as they can get for the next game.

You're looking in the wrong direction if you think devs are going to start abusing people. Publishers have written the book on how to do that. They're going to try and buy out these games as they get close to launch and say "ha ha, fuck you! PAY US."
 
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24. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 13:55 Darks
 
Prez wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 13:12:

I feel it is a problem. Kickstarter is (to my knowledge) supposed to help finance those who have tried and couldn't get financed, a last choice option.
That would be the source of our disagreement. I don't subscribe to your vision of kickstarter at all. Way too narrow and exclusive for me.

Sorry, but to me this is a big problem, this is a company that created the first game and it did really well. Now these jerkoffs are trying to soak the community for more money to kick off a part 2 of their game. Something smells very fishy.
These guys made more then enough money to make their sequel. I donít like it when you have developers trying to soak money out of people when they miss managed their funds in the first place. Sorry, but I will not be supporting them on this one.

I already spent money on the first game and liked it but you are not going to tell me that they need that kind of money for assts they already have in place to make a second game.

Itís not like this game has over the top graphics. Its basically using an editor to build the levels then scripting them and making new art. This all sounds too much to me like they are trying to fund their own pockets.
 
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23. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 13:44 NKD
 
spindoctor wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 13:28:
The thought process behind this particular Kickstarter is that they could probably make the game even if they don't get crowdfunded, but why not take money from potential customers right at the beginning anyway? It's a little sad what this has devolved into.

So? Why is it people seem to think Kickstarter is supposed to be a last-ditch effort for the impoverished? The whole benefit to using Kickstarter for game projects is that you avoid selling out to publishers or other investors if at all possible.

I don't WANT developers to try and get other funding first. I want them to Kickstarter first and try to keep other parties out of it. Kickstarter should be the first resort, not the last resort, for companies interested in using it.

I don't care if they've shipped other titles before. You live in a magical dream world if you think every moderately successful title will earn the developer enough money to fully develop and release yet another project. Sometimes, that just doesn't happen. Their next project could be more ambitious than they can afford to do with cash on hand, or any other number of things.

This view of Kickstarter as a thing for indies to get their first title shipped so that they can subsequently sell out to a big publisher is extremely destructive.
 
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22. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 13:39 jacobvandy
 
Well, guess what? The CROWD decides what projects are CROWD-funded. So if the concept of KickStarter is "devolving," it is doing so in an entirely democratic way. You have the right to refuse to back any project you don't want to, and ignore everything else. It shouldn't bother you that certain projects that you don't like are funded by other people.

As for Defense Grid, it is my favorite TD game of all time. I really don't care if they could/should/would raise the money themselves, I'm more than happy to contribute and help them realize their goal that much faster and easier. BTW, they explain the reasoning behind the tiers in the FAQ, which for some reason is still skipped over by a lot of people looking at KS:

We took this approach because each of these were pieces of our DG2 plan, and we came up with an approach that would allow us to deliver content to you along the way.

We said ok, we're going to have a team building DG2, what do we need to do. "Well, we need a story, and we need the story to be bigger than last time. We need the new engine. We need multiplayer. We need a level editor. We need Mac & Linux support. We need new leaderboard technology." And those are all things in our DG2 spec.

Then later when we were working on the Kickstarter, we said - "hey, what parts of DG2 could we release as we're building them?" and that's what led to the tiers.

"Well, we could release the intro part of the story early to people" - thats where DG:Containment came from. "Well, we could release some multiplayer once the new engine is avialable" - ok. "Hmm, but the new engine with just a couple of multiplayer levels doesn't sound too interesting, oh, but we could move over all the existing content on to the new engine and make sure the engine is fully ready for single player release as well as multiplayer release" - ok, that works.

"And then once we're on the new engine, we can release it with the multiplayer and original content early on Mac, Linux, with more multiplayer and with the level editor we're building." Ok. "And then when it's all done, we can release DG2."

So that's how the plan was born. You're funding DG2 no matter what we do, but we're releasing pieces of it as we develop it rather than waiting and holidng everything back until it is all done.
 
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21. Re: Defense Grid 2 Kickstarter Jul 13, 2012, 13:28 spindoctor
 
Kitkoan wrote on Jul 13, 2012, 12:43:
I feel it is a problem. Kickstarter is (to my knowledge) supposed to help finance those who have tried and couldn't get financed, a last choice option.

It's unfortunate that this core philosophy behind Kickstarter is getting more and more diluted. You now have Kickstarters for projects that are well into development but the developers decided that they might as well get paid for it early, or you have multi million dollar corporations running Kickstarters to remove ads from their site or the Kickstarter where the game is getting made anyway but the developer still asks for money so that they don't have to get venture capital and keep their IP rights. The thought process behind this particular Kickstarter is that they could probably make the game even if they don't get crowdfunded, but why not take money from potential customers right at the beginning anyway? It's a little sad what this has devolved into.
 
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