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Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary

A new video developer's diary for Civilization V: Gods & Kings shows off Firaxis' upcoming turn-based strategy expansion, offering a new behind-the-scenes diary to show off the project before its release tomorrow. The clip features producer Dennis Shirk and lead designer Ed Beach "as they take a deeper dive into the rebuilt game systems in Gods & Kings, including the new religion, espionage, combat, and naval systems."

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11. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 19, 2012, 01:50 Crustacean Soup
 
Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 19, 2012, 01:35:
"I was hoping for an actual explanation, rather than "everything is simplified"."

I guess I like the added layers of options available to me in 4 that are not there in 5. In 4 you really have to manage at both the city and global levels, where in 5 you are only really concerned with the global level. Like happy, in 5 your pop is unhappy, build whatever happy improvement in whatever city, it doesnt matter. In 4 each city is its own entity (far more realistic IMO) so you have an unhappy city you have to deal with that city. Plus its not just a simple food issue like 5, in 4 unhappy pop can hurt you in many ways, cash, science, food, production... thats what I like, 4 is much more dynamic... and thats not even going into, health, corporations, religion, espionage, city specialization ect, and even war... as much as I would prefer a 1UPT it doesnt work in 5. I have never felt threatened playing 5 as I do playing 4, SODs may suck but you sure sweat fearing one will show up at your border and you cant counter it.
In 4, you counter health and happy with buildings. Your city is unhappy, you want it to be happy. Response? Well, it's just about always to build a happy building, of course (policies aside). That's pretty near a rote response, there's no thought required. Get a new Happy building, and widespread unhappiness? Get ready to queue it the thing in all 20 of your cities. You of course also build +Happy buildings to respond to unhappiness in Civ 5, but building that Happy building on all of your cities could easily plunge you into inescapable debt, or take away income you were planning to spend on military maintenance, turning it a harder decision.

So there's a level less of decision-making. In exchange, you get another. You go from making a rote decision about building +Health and +Happy buildings to making a thought-requiring decision to building +Happy buildings (and any building in general, since most require maintenance now; I don't know why you put City Specialization on your list there, because Civ 5 has all the old mechanisms in addition to the building maintenance one. You can't build every building possible in every city, you have to pick-and-choose).

Yes, Happy only really affects Growth, Rebels, and Golden Ages. But those are huge. An unhappy empire is going to stagnate completely (not just in one or two cities), and won't get periodic boosts from Golden Ages, which gradually pulls it behind its competitors. In Civ 4, I could just steamroll an enemy civ and live with a few unhappy cities, whatever, no biggie. In 5, doing so could plunge my whole empire into unhappiness. Sitting on unhappiness in 5 for a protracted period of time is no good at all.

Again, different, not simplified and stupid and made for 10 year olds.

Edit:
As for the rest:

health, corporations, religion, espionage, city specialization
Health is dumb, it's Happiness under a different name. I'm fine with that going.

Corporations were an annoying way of choking an enemy, but I never really got into corporation strategies much, so I can't say too much about those.

Espionage was only really developed in BTS. And here's a Civ 5 expansion right here that's bringing in an Espionage system. Fancy that.

Religion, before BTS, was mostly a way of generating income and forcing the AI into blocs. It was a really good mechanism for forming blocs too, but one that occasionally made diplomacy pretty obtuse. BTS added the Apostolic Palace which was pretty neat. Civ 5 seems to use declarations of friendship and denouncements to help build up blocs, and it feels more organic. And of course, this expansion right here is adding Religion in but in a wholly different and more developed manner than in Civ 4 including BTS (with religions providing different bonuses, a new Faith resource, etc.).

I hit on city specialization above; I don't know why it's on your list.

war

Yeah, the AI is often pretty stupid as far as combat goes, there's no denying that. They still manage to crush me on the higher difficulty levels though.

This comment was edited on Jun 19, 2012, 02:03.
 
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10. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 19, 2012, 01:35 Yosemite Sam
 
"I was hoping for an actual explanation, rather than "everything is simplified"."

I guess I like the added layers of options available to me in 4 that are not there in 5. In 4 you really have to manage at both the city and global levels, where in 5 you are only really concerned with the global level. Like happy, in 5 your pop is unhappy, build whatever happy improvement in whatever city, it doesnt matter. In 4 each city is its own entity (far more realistic IMO) so you have an unhappy city you have to deal with that city. Plus its not just a simple food issue like 5, in 4 unhappy pop can hurt you in many ways, cash, science, food, production... thats what I like, 4 is much more dynamic... and thats not even going into, health, corporations, religion, espionage, city specialization ect, and even war... as much as I would prefer a 1UPT it doesnt work in 5. I have never felt threatened playing 5 as I do playing 4, SODs may suck but you sure sweat fearing one will show up at your border and you cant counter it.
 
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9. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 19, 2012, 01:00 Crustacean Soup
 
Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 21:09:
Crustacean Soup wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 15:30:
Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 14:38:
the management system is far to simplified, the game sucks.
Just curious: what's simplified that you don't like? They got rid of health and per-city happyness, but per-empire happyness and building maintenance lead to an interesting juggling act. Are you referring to that, or something else?

What I dont like is pretty much the entire game from the top down is simplified. The complexity of Civ4 is what keeps me going back for yet another game. You say the juggling act between happy and cash is interesting, its so simple a ten year old could understand it. Getting your shit together in Civ4 on the other hand is far more complex and that to me is interesting.

I was hoping for an actual explanation, rather than "everything is simplified".

In Civ4, if you have an unhealthy city, you push out a +Heath building. If you have an unhappy city, you do a +Happy building. You can pretty much push out as many buildings for any city you want. In Civ 5, you're limited by high building maintenance fees and have to specialize your cities better. You also have to be very careful not to expand or conquer beyond your current capabilities (low happyness can screw you over very quickly, but +Happy buildings all require a pretty good amount of maintenance).

Again, how is the Civ 4 way of handling this any more complicated? All I see is that it's different.
Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 21:09:
How does it get insane quickly? Theres nothing to it, unhappy people stops growth which in turn stops people from becoming unhappy, its unbelievably simple.

Happy affects growth in Civ 4 as well (consuming, but not producing). The growth penalty in Civ 5 can be crippling though, which makes happiness quite important.

Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 21:09:
Being at war doesnt even effect happiness, unlike civ4, and settle what citys down? Its global, simple. Now in Civ4 you get in a protracted war and shit really starts to hit the fan, your citys start to go to pieces and that dominoes throughout your whole empire.

Yeah, there's no war weariness in Civ 5 last time I checked. I don't think that's a bad thing at all. There's a relatively extreme happiness penalty for conquering cities. If you overconquer, you'll quickly screw your whole empire over. So the conquering players are still penalized, the only difference is that the weaker party in the war is not. If someone massively powerful and not at all interested in peace fights a protracted war against you, you're not penalized for it. I like that.

This comment was edited on Jun 19, 2012, 01:09.
 
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8. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 19, 2012, 00:24 dj LiTh
 
Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 21:09:
Crustacean Soup wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 15:30:
Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 14:38:
the management system is far to simplified, the game sucks.
Just curious: what's simplified that you don't like? They got rid of health and per-city happyness, but per-empire happyness and building maintenance lead to an interesting juggling act. Are you referring to that, or something else?

What I dont like is pretty much the entire game from the top down is simplified. The complexity of Civ4 is what keeps me going back for yet another game. You say the juggling act between happy and cash is interesting, its so simple a ten year old could understand it. Getting your shit together in Civ4 on the other hand is far more complex and that to me is interesting.

I'm curious about this as well because the happiness stuff can get insane very quickly. You go to war and you don't have a ton of happiness you'll find yourself getting screwed once your empire is really unhappy. -33% to combat strength and suddenly that slight advantage is gone and your only chance is to stand on defense until you can settle those cities down.

How does it get insane quickly? Theres nothing to it, unhappy people stops growth which in turn stops people from becoming unhappy, its unbelievably simple. Being at war doesnt even effect happiness, unlike civ4, and settle what citys down? Its global, simple. Now in Civ4 you get in a protracted war and shit really starts to hit the fan, your citys start to go to pieces and that dominoes throughout your whole empire.

What Civ5 did right. Hex grid. GFX. City expansion, IE how it uses tiles. The combat system (except the AI is retarded which makes it a wash) Id really like to get rid of the stacks of doom, but at least its more challenging then the mental AI in Civ5. Everything else about Civ5 is a major step backwards, for simplicity, in an attempt at a larger audience... which I really dont see, people who want a simple no thinking game arnt going to play Civ regardless of how easy it is.

....being at war doesnt effect happiness in civ5? Are we playing the same game?
 
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7. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 18, 2012, 21:09 Yosemite Sam
 
Crustacean Soup wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 15:30:
Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 14:38:
the management system is far to simplified, the game sucks.
Just curious: what's simplified that you don't like? They got rid of health and per-city happyness, but per-empire happyness and building maintenance lead to an interesting juggling act. Are you referring to that, or something else?

What I dont like is pretty much the entire game from the top down is simplified. The complexity of Civ4 is what keeps me going back for yet another game. You say the juggling act between happy and cash is interesting, its so simple a ten year old could understand it. Getting your shit together in Civ4 on the other hand is far more complex and that to me is interesting.

I'm curious about this as well because the happiness stuff can get insane very quickly. You go to war and you don't have a ton of happiness you'll find yourself getting screwed once your empire is really unhappy. -33% to combat strength and suddenly that slight advantage is gone and your only chance is to stand on defense until you can settle those cities down.

How does it get insane quickly? Theres nothing to it, unhappy people stops growth which in turn stops people from becoming unhappy, its unbelievably simple. Being at war doesnt even effect happiness, unlike civ4, and settle what citys down? Its global, simple. Now in Civ4 you get in a protracted war and shit really starts to hit the fan, your citys start to go to pieces and that dominoes throughout your whole empire.

What Civ5 did right. Hex grid. GFX. City expansion, IE how it uses tiles. The combat system (except the AI is retarded which makes it a wash) Id really like to get rid of the stacks of doom, but at least its more challenging then the mental AI in Civ5. Everything else about Civ5 is a major step backwards, for simplicity, in an attempt at a larger audience... which I really dont see, people who want a simple no thinking game arnt going to play Civ regardless of how easy it is.
 
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CIV4 MOD http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326525
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6. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 18, 2012, 18:05 Tumbler
 
Just curious: what's simplified that you don't like? They got rid of health and per-city happyness, but per-empire happyness and building maintenance lead to an interesting juggling act. Are you referring to that, or something else?

I'm curious about this as well because the happiness stuff can get insane very quickly. You go to war and you don't have a ton of happiness you'll find yourself getting screwed once your empire is really unhappy. -33% to combat strength and suddenly that slight advantage is gone and your only chance is to stand on defense until you can settle those cities down.
 
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5. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 18, 2012, 15:30 Crustacean Soup
 
Yosemite Sam wrote on Jun 18, 2012, 14:38:
the management system is far to simplified, the game sucks.
Just curious: what's simplified that you don't like? They got rid of health and per-city happyness, but per-empire happyness and building maintenance lead to an interesting juggling act. Are you referring to that, or something else?
 
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4. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 18, 2012, 14:38 Yosemite Sam
 
I keep trying Civ5, I really want to like it but it's just such a huge step backwards from the previous title, and this doesnt look like it'll help at all. Dumbing the game down to appeal to a larger audience ruined it, and the new combat is pointless if the AI can't deal with it... was in an archer vs archer battle, I rained arrows on the enemy archer for 4-5 turns before killing it, it did not fire one single shot my way. The AI is retarded and the management system is far to simplified, the game sucks.
 
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CIV4 MOD http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326525
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3. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 18, 2012, 12:02 Tumbler
 
Oh nice! I just decided to take the day off tommorrow to catch up on some gaming, Starhawk and Max Payne 3, and I totally forgot this was coming out tomorrow! Picked it up on green man gaming for $23 or $24 can't remember exactly. They gave me a better offer too, total of 25% off (over my 20% off) via email but I didn't want to go to the trouble of canceling the initial order so I could repurchase for 5% less.
 
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2. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 18, 2012, 11:36 NegaDeath
 
I think I'll hold off until it's cheaper. I had planned on getting it for all the new features but based on the latest report on RPS it doesn't sound like the AI got the overhaul it needed (or that I wanted). It still feels like it's got ADD or something.

This comment was edited on Jun 18, 2012, 11:56.
 
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1. Re: Civilization V: Gods & Kings Diary Jun 18, 2012, 11:16 theyarecomingforyou
 
Looks great. I've already pre-ordered it and look forward to putting a lot of time into it. Although I've already put in over 85hrs into Civ5 it still feels like I haven't played it anywhere near enough.  
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