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Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights

Mark Rein tweets that Epic has prevailed in their legal battle with Silicon Knights in U.S. District Court. Silicon Knights accused Epic of failing to support their licensing of the Unreal Engine 3 for Too Human, and sued Epic. Rein says simply: "Case over. Jury finds for Epic on all counts." Rather than winning a settlement, Giant Bomb reports Silicon Knights is now on the hook for $4.45 million in damages in this case. Thanks VG247.

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25. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 21:37 MattyC
 
Wolfen wrote on May 31, 2012, 04:21:
Beamer wrote on May 31, 2012, 00:34:
Wolfen wrote on May 31, 2012, 00:27:
Beamer wrote on May 30, 2012, 23:24:
Man, it's obvious who here hasn't been in a studio using UE3.


No support? Have you ever tried anyone elses' engine? UDN is pretty much amazing.

I second your sentiments.

The entire reason UE3 became an industry standard is because Epic hired people to make easy-to-use tools and hired people to actually explain those tools, create tutorials and answer questions. You know, people to train and support. From there it snowballed, but some of the claims here are baffling and clearly coming from people that dislike Epic and not people that have used a variety of engines in a professional (or even academic) setting. Plus it has anti-aliasing, it has FOV controls, and it supports DX11 in ways that likely make it the single most advanced engine out there right now despite claims in here that "it's flawed and only supports consoles." Sorry, guys, but no console can run the stuff shown in last year's Samaritan demo - that was all PC exclusive.
Hate Epic all you want, but try to at least remain factual with your UE3 bashing. Some of the stuff said in this thread is so far incorrect you may as well be making it up. "UE3 only runs on TI-82 graphic calculators and only supports the color pink!"

Also, I still haven't played many games without texture pop-in (or, actually, any FPS that I can think of), nor does it matter much to me as it only happens within the first 15 seconds of a level loading. I see it as an issue, but not a big one. Would people prefer it loads levels 15 seconds longer? Or do you guys get it when you turn, like in Rage when it first launched? I've never seen texture caching issues in UE3 after the first few seconds of a level. Or, really, in anything but Rage.

Coming from a fan of the id tech engines (tools, namely radiant) and having used UE3, LithTech, other Proprietary engines, and various other tools, Unreal Tech is my favorite to work with "content" wise.

I am fairly out of date (having only really played around with early version of UED), but Epic has always had good tools with Unreal engines in my opinion. Even back with the original Unreal the editor and mod support were just top notch, particularly when compared to everything else. From what I saw when I toyed with UED that tradition has continued.

@Stinging the 360 version had some crappy popin textures and annoying elevator loading times. That was really about it. You had some FPS drops in big fights, but that is generally a 'yeah console' thing. Not sure where you are getting broken from.
 
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24. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 12:35 StingingVelvet
 
Theo wrote on May 31, 2012, 11:52:
Masseffect 1 on the 360 minght be the worst game of all time in terms of technology; it performs like shit and has pop in no matter what - Me2 is fine tho.

Yeah, I have read people complaining that Mass Effect has a shitty port to PC but I don't think any of those people every played it on Xbox. The Xbox game was borderline broken and the PC version actually has a lot of nice updates and changes on top of the fact it actually functions.
 
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23. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 11:52 Theo
 
Verno wrote on May 31, 2012, 09:05:
StingingVelvet wrote on May 31, 2012, 06:21:
Yeah, I have seen very little texture pop-in on PC. Borderlands when you first load an area after fast-travel maybe, but that's it.

However on consoles the pop-in is RAMPANT. I have played Xbox games on a friend's machine and Mass Effect, BioShock, Borderlands and many others all have terrible texture load-in lag. I remember in Bioshock when he sacrificed a little sister the leech thing was always just a big brown blur because the texture too longer to load in than the animation of killing her and the leech.

Yeah its pretty obnoxious on the consoles, it's part of the reason devs are so addicted to controlled cutscenes as hidden loads now.

Boardlands on the 360 is ok with pop in if you install it to your drive, its fucking AWFUL if your reading off disk. least seems that way on mine.

Masseffect 1 on the 360 minght be the worst game of all time in terms of technology; it performs like shit and has pop in no matter what - Me2 is fine tho.

 
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edit: i cant spell, this is my disclaimer.
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22. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 10:15 wtf_man
 
Not to Defend SK... but at the time, I don't think there was that much support for the engine... again, we're talking a company that went from 2.5 to 3.0... the early years of UE3. UE3 may have fantastic support now, but it probably wasn't always that way.

At the same time... SK should not expect Epic to code their game for them. Obviously, other studios figured the engine out and they were able to produce a game. Maybe SK's programmers weren't up to the task. I don't know.

The bottom line is... apparently SK felt they weren't getting enough support, which screwed up their schedule, and the courts disagreed.
 
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21. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 09:05 Verno
 
StingingVelvet wrote on May 31, 2012, 06:21:
Yeah, I have seen very little texture pop-in on PC. Borderlands when you first load an area after fast-travel maybe, but that's it.

However on consoles the pop-in is RAMPANT. I have played Xbox games on a friend's machine and Mass Effect, BioShock, Borderlands and many others all have terrible texture load-in lag. I remember in Bioshock when he sacrificed a little sister the leech thing was always just a big brown blur because the texture too longer to load in than the animation of killing her and the leech.

Yeah its pretty obnoxious on the consoles, it's part of the reason devs are so addicted to controlled cutscenes as hidden loads now.
 
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20. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 08:31 Beamer
 
StingingVelvet wrote on May 31, 2012, 06:21:
Beamer wrote on May 31, 2012, 00:34:
Also, I still haven't played many games without texture pop-in (or, actually, any FPS that I can think of), nor does it matter much to me as it only happens within the first 15 seconds of a level loading. I see it as an issue, but not a big one. Would people prefer it loads levels 15 seconds longer? Or do you guys get it when you turn, like in Rage when it first launched? I've never seen texture caching issues in UE3 after the first few seconds of a level. Or, really, in anything but Rage.

Yeah, I have seen very little texture pop-in on PC. Borderlands when you first load an area after fast-travel maybe, but that's it.

However on consoles the pop-in is RAMPANT. I have played Xbox games on a friend's machine and Mass Effect, BioShock, Borderlands and many others all have terrible texture load-in lag. I remember in Bioshock when he sacrificed a little sister the leech thing was always just a big brown blur because the texture too longer to load in than the animation of killing her and the leech.

I see it constantly on the console when levels load, but never in-level. Doesn't matter which engine or which console - every texture-intensive game I've played has it at load.

Actually, I guess other than levels you see it in cut-scenes, which is really when it looks stupid.
 
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19. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 06:21 StingingVelvet
 
Beamer wrote on May 31, 2012, 00:34:
Also, I still haven't played many games without texture pop-in (or, actually, any FPS that I can think of), nor does it matter much to me as it only happens within the first 15 seconds of a level loading. I see it as an issue, but not a big one. Would people prefer it loads levels 15 seconds longer? Or do you guys get it when you turn, like in Rage when it first launched? I've never seen texture caching issues in UE3 after the first few seconds of a level. Or, really, in anything but Rage.

Yeah, I have seen very little texture pop-in on PC. Borderlands when you first load an area after fast-travel maybe, but that's it.

However on consoles the pop-in is RAMPANT. I have played Xbox games on a friend's machine and Mass Effect, BioShock, Borderlands and many others all have terrible texture load-in lag. I remember in Bioshock when he sacrificed a little sister the leech thing was always just a big brown blur because the texture too longer to load in than the animation of killing her and the leech.
 
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18. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 04:21 Wolfen
 
Beamer wrote on May 31, 2012, 00:34:
Wolfen wrote on May 31, 2012, 00:27:
Beamer wrote on May 30, 2012, 23:24:
Man, it's obvious who here hasn't been in a studio using UE3.


No support? Have you ever tried anyone elses' engine? UDN is pretty much amazing.

I second your sentiments.

The entire reason UE3 became an industry standard is because Epic hired people to make easy-to-use tools and hired people to actually explain those tools, create tutorials and answer questions. You know, people to train and support. From there it snowballed, but some of the claims here are baffling and clearly coming from people that dislike Epic and not people that have used a variety of engines in a professional (or even academic) setting. Plus it has anti-aliasing, it has FOV controls, and it supports DX11 in ways that likely make it the single most advanced engine out there right now despite claims in here that "it's flawed and only supports consoles." Sorry, guys, but no console can run the stuff shown in last year's Samaritan demo - that was all PC exclusive.
Hate Epic all you want, but try to at least remain factual with your UE3 bashing. Some of the stuff said in this thread is so far incorrect you may as well be making it up. "UE3 only runs on TI-82 graphic calculators and only supports the color pink!"

Also, I still haven't played many games without texture pop-in (or, actually, any FPS that I can think of), nor does it matter much to me as it only happens within the first 15 seconds of a level loading. I see it as an issue, but not a big one. Would people prefer it loads levels 15 seconds longer? Or do you guys get it when you turn, like in Rage when it first launched? I've never seen texture caching issues in UE3 after the first few seconds of a level. Or, really, in anything but Rage.

Coming from a fan of the id tech engines (tools, namely radiant) and having used UE3, LithTech, other Proprietary engines, and various other tools, Unreal Tech is my favorite to work with "content" wise.
 
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17. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 03:12 Flatline
 
I guess this is the nail in the coffin for Too Human 2?  
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16. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 00:34 Beamer
 
Wolfen wrote on May 31, 2012, 00:27:
Beamer wrote on May 30, 2012, 23:24:
Man, it's obvious who here hasn't been in a studio using UE3.


No support? Have you ever tried anyone elses' engine? UDN is pretty much amazing.

I second your sentiments.

The entire reason UE3 became an industry standard is because Epic hired people to make easy-to-use tools and hired people to actually explain those tools, create tutorials and answer questions. You know, people to train and support. From there it snowballed, but some of the claims here are baffling and clearly coming from people that dislike Epic and not people that have used a variety of engines in a professional (or even academic) setting. Plus it has anti-aliasing, it has FOV controls, and it supports DX11 in ways that likely make it the single most advanced engine out there right now despite claims in here that "it's flawed and only supports consoles." Sorry, guys, but no console can run the stuff shown in last year's Samaritan demo - that was all PC exclusive.
Hate Epic all you want, but try to at least remain factual with your UE3 bashing. Some of the stuff said in this thread is so far incorrect you may as well be making it up. "UE3 only runs on TI-82 graphic calculators and only supports the color pink!"

Also, I still haven't played many games without texture pop-in (or, actually, any FPS that I can think of), nor does it matter much to me as it only happens within the first 15 seconds of a level loading. I see it as an issue, but not a big one. Would people prefer it loads levels 15 seconds longer? Or do you guys get it when you turn, like in Rage when it first launched? I've never seen texture caching issues in UE3 after the first few seconds of a level. Or, really, in anything but Rage.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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15. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 31, 2012, 00:27 Wolfen
 
Beamer wrote on May 30, 2012, 23:24:
Man, it's obvious who here hasn't been in a studio using UE3.


No support? Have you ever tried anyone elses' engine? UDN is pretty much amazing.

I second your sentiments.
 
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14. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 23:40 siapnar
 
When I worked on UT2003/UT3 mods and maps, the Epic community managers were extremely helpful in the forums.
I don't see why they wouldn't be in a larger context, unless SK were being unreasonable.

Since I've met a few people at SK and they happen to be pretentious pricks, them being unreasonable doesn't seem like a stretch
 
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13. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 23:24 Beamer
 
Man, it's obvious who here hasn't been in a studio using UE3.


No support? Have you ever tried anyone elses' engine? UDN is pretty much amazing.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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12. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 23:08 Beelzebud
 
I don't see how they had a case other than to prove their own incompetence.

I haven't liked anything Epic has produced since UT2K4, but it's one of the most widely used engines, and other studios don't seem to have any problems getting it to do what they need.
 
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11. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 22:45 PHJF
 
I've pretty much hated UE3 since I saw that first texture pop in during Mass Effect on my friend's 360. It's an engine meant for consoles... but it does do a decent enough job on 360, where it has to make do with terribly outdated hardware.

But I've been playing Tera (UE3) and it's easily the best-looking, best-feeling MMORPG out there. There's a world of difference between a developer making a game for PC versus porting to PC, regardless of the engine.

Then again, I don't see any other developer making any better engines, 360 or otherwise. Source engine received miniscule little updates over the years, id tech 5 is basically a failure (or maybe just needs a better game to feature it), and nobody seems to want to license anything else.
 
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10. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 22:36 Dades
 
Factor in the poor cacheing, the fact that it's still geared for consoles and has to be optimized for PC by the company using it (Ever notice how the FOV and frame rate lock need to be fixed in patches in UE3 games months after launch? Like Borderlands and Bioshock 2?) and you can actually see where Silicon Knights is coming from....

...but in all reality, you'd have to expect them to know this. Everyone knows UE3 is a hideously flawed piece of crap. It's the Wal-mart of 3D game engines.

If you read the background about this lawsuit it mainly concerns the transition from UE 2.5 to 3.0. Silicon Knights felt that they were unfairly treated in terms of documentation and support which severely affected their ability to ship a product. Maybe there is some merit to what they're saying but many other studios were able to ship games despite probably facing similar challenges.
 
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9. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 22:27 Icewind
 
Sepharo wrote on May 30, 2012, 21:00:
Silicon Knights is now on the hook for $4.45 million in damages

Ouch...

I'm not sure of what Silicon Knights had as evidence of Epic's promised support but I'm guessing it probably went down like this.

Epic: "Hey if you guys license our engine you'll practically be a partner studio with us... We'll help you out with everything, share synergies and all that!"

SK: "Cool, where do we sign"

-months later deep into development-

SK: "So about that help?"

Epic: "Ahh, we're kind of busy right now... But feel free to check out the wiki."

You're the only person here that really gets it, apparently.

While I'm not going to defend Silicon Knights (I loved Sanity's Requiem, BTW) I can see where they're coming from. Unreal Engine is hideously out of date and unoptimized. Even on the PC you see horrible texture pop-in and it's been known for years now that UE3 can't use Anti-aliasing. That's why you'll notice in UE 3 games on the PC there is no option for it. It's an oft-cited gripe.

Factor in the poor cacheing, the fact that it's still geared for consoles and has to be optimized for PC by the company using it (Ever notice how the FOV and frame rate lock need to be fixed in patches in UE3 games months after launch? Like Borderlands and Bioshock 2?) and you can actually see where Silicon Knights is coming from....

...but in all reality, you'd have to expect them to know this. Everyone knows UE3 is a hideously flawed piece of crap. It's the Wal-mart of 3D game engines.

So I can't really have any sympathy for Silicon Knights since they knew damn well what they were getting into. Though I imagine like the post I quoted, Epic probably fed them all kinds of lies that made them think they would be given priority.
 
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8. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 22:24 Dades
 
.net_Drifter wrote on May 30, 2012, 21:27:
Cutter wrote on May 30, 2012, 21:04:
When you lay down with dogs you get fleas...and sued apparently.
I agree. Silicon Knights are dogs, only one good game from them, the original Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain.

Excuse me but Eternal Darkness begs to differ, one of the greatest horror games of all time.
 
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7. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 21:27 .Drifter
 
Cutter wrote on May 30, 2012, 21:04:
When you lay down with dogs you get fleas...and sued apparently.
I agree. Silicon Knights are dogs, only one good game from them, the original Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain.
 
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6. Re: Epic Wins Case Versus Silicon Knights May 30, 2012, 21:20 Steele Johnson
 
That's what happens when you outsource your programming to China and have only bonehead managers at the main office managing the project.  
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