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19. Re: etc. May 14, 2012, 00:37 Asmo
 
nin wrote on May 13, 2012, 18:52:
Part of the charm of DII was that you didn't know much about it and it was a learning experience. By the time I rolled a hardcore toon I'd pretty much worked out what worked and what didn't (pally player).

There is something to be said for preserving some of the mystery.

There is. But (regarding D2) it also sucks as you're learning, and could easily ruin a good character by placing points in the wrong skill...


No doubt, 13 points in zeal meant you hit a lot of mobs but did little damage to each (which often meant that either a boss or a stoneskin electric hero was destroying you while you were beating his 10 friends).

Still, I just can't get hyped about DIII. Not trying to be the "cool anti-establishment" type or anything like that, I've just had a lot of the enthusiasm wrung out of me with the extensive coverage of the game.
 
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18. Diablo 3... May 13, 2012, 19:37 Ant
 
Meh, I will wait. No sales I saw/found either.  
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17. Re: etc. May 13, 2012, 18:52 nin
 
Part of the charm of DII was that you didn't know much about it and it was a learning experience. By the time I rolled a hardcore toon I'd pretty much worked out what worked and what didn't (pally player).

There is something to be said for preserving some of the mystery.

There is. But (regarding D2) it also sucks as you're learning, and could easily ruin a good character by placing points in the wrong skill...

 
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16. Re: etc. May 13, 2012, 18:49 Asmo
 
I just can't get worked up about Diablo III and things like 'best builds yo' webpages are one of the reasons...

Part of the charm of DII was that you didn't know much about it and it was a learning experience. By the time I rolled a hardcore toon I'd pretty much worked out what worked and what didn't (pally player).

There is something to be said for preserving some of the mystery.
 
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15. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 23:03 Verno
 
eunichron wrote on May 12, 2012, 18:18:
I actually preferred the system that they had early in the beta where you could only swap abilities at 'shrines' in town and at the beginning of each dungeon. This gave more of a sense of permanence, and required the player to plan ahead before venturing forth, while still maintaining the benefits of the 'unified' skill system. But it's still better than, "Oh, that skill doesn't work? Better delete and start over from the beginning."

Yeah agreed, the old system thematically fit better in the world as well. I'm not sure why they got rid of the shrines, I think they just didn't fit well with the rune system but rune system itself is pretty new and will probably be changed a lot.

As for permanance I think the more serious players will roll hardcore characters anyway. It has more than enough consequence built in and the RMAH can't influence it. I can't really take the games as seriously without the risk factor and I think the new TP ability being such a long cast will make Hardcore an incredible experience.

I do kinda miss atribute point allocation though, I'd like the flexibility to fine tune my builds a bit.

This comment was edited on May 12, 2012, 23:09.
 
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14. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 21:27 nin
 
if you change a skill, skill rune, passive, or leave the game, the buff disappears. As an extra reward, if you kill a boss while this buff is active, you’ll receive extra loot drops from that boss.


That's actually pretty cool, until they got to the "leave the game" part...would have been nice if they continually rewarded players who stuck with a certain build, when it was successful.


 
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13. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 19:53 Bucky
 
eunichron wrote on May 12, 2012, 18:18:
RollinThundr wrote on May 12, 2012, 16:30:
At the expense of removing any consequence or urgency. "Oh that skill doesn't work? Just swap it out"

Swapping abilities still has a cooldown. They've tweaked it here and there (it used to be something like a minute, now it's only like 10 seconds), but you can't just hotswap abilities in the middle of combat and expect to be OK.

I actually preferred the system that they had early in the beta where you could only swap abilities at 'shrines' in town and at the beginning of each dungeon. This gave more of a sense of permanence, and required the player to plan ahead before venturing forth, while still maintaining the benefits of the 'unified' skill system. But it's still better than, "Oh, that skill doesn't work? Better delete and start over from the beginning."

They've also introduced the Nephalem Valor buff to encourage balanced builds. Basically, as you kill elites/champions your MF chance increases, so long as you don't die and don't swap skills. They've repeatedly said the best method of getting loot is targeting champions and elites, with a boss at the end of the run.

This was the first link I found, also seems that the buff doesn't kick in until level 60. Nephalem Valor
 
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12. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 18:18 eunichron
 
RollinThundr wrote on May 12, 2012, 16:30:
At the expense of removing any consequence or urgency. "Oh that skill doesn't work? Just swap it out"

Swapping abilities still has a cooldown. They've tweaked it here and there (it used to be something like a minute, now it's only like 10 seconds), but you can't just hotswap abilities in the middle of combat and expect to be OK.

I actually preferred the system that they had early in the beta where you could only swap abilities at 'shrines' in town and at the beginning of each dungeon. This gave more of a sense of permanence, and required the player to plan ahead before venturing forth, while still maintaining the benefits of the 'unified' skill system. But it's still better than, "Oh, that skill doesn't work? Better delete and start over from the beginning."
 
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11. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 18:05 NKD
 
Permanence of choice in gaming is a double edged sword. I am referring specifically to gameplay choice rather than story choice here.

I've always felt that there are three main factors in any choice. For example deciding what character ability to take.

Foreknowledge - How well has the game educated the player on the possible outcomes of the choice?

Impact - How strongly will a right or wrong choice affect the player's gameplay?

Permanence - How difficult is it to fix a choice that the player is unhappy with?

Obviously the most hardcore situation would have permanent, highly impactful choices that are made without any significant context being communicated to the player that they can use to make the choice.

But even then, that can be dodged by consulting out-of-game resources. Suddenly all three factors are trivialized and it ceases to be a choice at all. It becomes the illusion of choice. Why risk experimenting when you've got to live with the choice? Easier to simply copy someone else's answer. As a developer, there's nothing you can do to remedy this situation short of going in and randomly rebalancing your game in a very severe fashion every so often.

So faced with this problem, developers can choose to pretend no one is going to consult outside info, and act like their high level of Permanence and Impact is making a difference, when it really isn't. Alternatively, they can choose to do what has been done with Diablo 3, and embrace the tendency of the player base to want to tweak and perfect their character.

Since the developer no longer has to worry about players permanently screwing themselves, they are free to offer a wider range of choices, knowing the player can always try something else. It also adds a dynamic element where the player needs to be constantly aware of what abilities might be useful. Instead of deciding once, they are deciding all the time what they want to use.

You're still going to have the pros who know exactly what to use, and the copycats who read something on the Internet, and the noobs who have no clue what they are doing at all.

 
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10. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 17:17 Bucky
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on May 12, 2012, 17:00:
Personally....I guess I would just create a new char, but this is fine too. I do like the old school way of "well you screwed up if you don't like that, to bad so sad!". Probably trying to appeal to the masses. I guess if the purists have issue with it, then they just need to have self control and not swap stuff out.

That's the important line: screwing up a build. It follows that if you screw up a build then there are only so many correct ways, at which point the illusion of choice is far greater than the actual choice you have.

There are numerous Blue posts stating their reasons behind the skill system change far better than I can, all I know is that I like it. If I want an old school challenge (which I always associate with masochism), I'll play Hardcore.
 
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9. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 17:00 xXBatmanXx
 
Draugr wrote on May 12, 2012, 16:51:
RollinThundr wrote on May 12, 2012, 16:30:
Krovven wrote on May 12, 2012, 16:06:
Draugr wrote on May 12, 2012, 15:38:
Haha, Diablo 3 'builds.'

"Use the abilties everyone has...and go for this kind of gear!" What a customized build!

End result is the same, different skill combinations, while giving the player more choice in the end-game (compared to D2.



At the expense of removing any consequence or urgency. "Oh that skill doesn't work? Just swap it out"

I understand why they did it, as a ways of dumbing it down for the casuals, but Diablo games aren't hard to begin with. Basically what they've done is made a game that really is all about loot, further focused on loot while removing any depth.

And in turn, adding the greater emphasis on loot fuels the rmah transactions, which I imagine was their intent. Let's make no mistake, loots always been a large factor of the series, however now it's the main and almost only emphasis.

Was talking with a friend who is pretty good at these games and plays a ton of them, and our conversation rotated more around the idea that the next time I play through, I can still use my super sweet guy, but swap out some things and have a diferent experience and play through differently.

Personally....I guess I would just create a new char, but this is fine too. I do like the old school way of "well you screwed up if you don't like that, to bad so sad!". Probably trying to appeal to the masses. I guess if the purists have issue with it, then they just need to have self control and not swap stuff out.
 
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8. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 16:51 Draugr
 
RollinThundr wrote on May 12, 2012, 16:30:
Krovven wrote on May 12, 2012, 16:06:
Draugr wrote on May 12, 2012, 15:38:
Haha, Diablo 3 'builds.'

"Use the abilties everyone has...and go for this kind of gear!" What a customized build!

End result is the same, different skill combinations, while giving the player more choice in the end-game (compared to D2.



At the expense of removing any consequence or urgency. "Oh that skill doesn't work? Just swap it out"

I understand why they did it, as a ways of dumbing it down for the casuals, but Diablo games aren't hard to begin with. Basically what they've done is made a game that really is all about loot, further focused on loot while removing any depth.

And in turn, adding the greater emphasis on loot fuels the rmah transactions, which I imagine was their intent. Let's make no mistake, loots always been a large factor of the series, however now it's the main and almost only emphasis.
 
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7. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 16:30 RollinThundr
 
Krovven wrote on May 12, 2012, 16:06:
Draugr wrote on May 12, 2012, 15:38:
Haha, Diablo 3 'builds.'

"Use the abilties everyone has...and go for this kind of gear!" What a customized build!

End result is the same, different skill combinations, while giving the player more choice in the end-game (compared to D2.



At the expense of removing any consequence or urgency. "Oh that skill doesn't work? Just swap it out"

I understand why they did it, as a ways of dumbing it down for the casuals, but Diablo games aren't hard to begin with. Basically what they've done is made a game that really is all about loot, further focused on loot while removing any depth.
 
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6. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 16:23 Mashiki Amiketo
 
I think I'll be trying a cold just to see how it goes with my wizard. Though I'm torn between metor or blizzard in force.  
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5. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 16:19 Bucky
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on May 12, 2012, 14:40:
3 days bitches!!!!! woohooo!!!!


I'm sure the delivery guy is gonna give me a strange look when he finds me sitting on the porch, waiting for the CE.
 
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4. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 16:06 Krovven
 
Draugr wrote on May 12, 2012, 15:38:
Haha, Diablo 3 'builds.'

"Use the abilties everyone has...and go for this kind of gear!" What a customized build!

End result is the same, different skill combinations, while giving the player more choice in the end-game (compared to D2.


 
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3. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 16:05 NKD
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on May 12, 2012, 14:40:
3 days bitches!!!!! woohooo!!!!

U GIV SOJ??
 
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2. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 15:38 Draugr
 
Haha, Diablo 3 'builds.'

"Use the abilties everyone has...and go for this kind of gear!" What a customized build!
 
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1. Re: etc. May 12, 2012, 14:40 xXBatmanXx
 
3 days bitches!!!!! woohooo!!!!  
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