64 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
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Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 10, 2012, 11:29 |
Orogogus |
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wtf_man wrote on May 10, 2012, 10:06:
Jerykk wrote on May 10, 2012, 03:56:
You seriously need to go back and replay SS2 and then replay Bioshock. The map designs and progression were very similar.
Perhaps you are right.
I have little recollection of Bioshock, since I was fairly disgusted with it, and never finished it. SS2, I have replayed many times, so I know it well. I do remember feeling like I was being herded, though. That said... that really isn't my main complaint. The game just felt so shallow compared to SS2 (IMO), that it was an insult to call it a "spiritual successor".
Maybe I expected too much... I don't know. But they definitely took a lot of the "RPG" out, and it was more shooter than RPG. It didn't even feel like a decent hybrid, like Deus Ex.
Maybe as a Half-Life type shooter, it stands up fairly well... but again, that is not what I was expecting as a "successor".
The RPG stuff was grafted on in SS2, it wasn't really present in System Shock, which lacked stats or skills, a money system, inventory Tetris, resurrection fees, research, weapon degradation. Pretty damn shooty, too. I feel Bioshock was probably closer to SS than the actual sequel turned out. |
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| 63. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 10, 2012, 10:50 |
Creston |
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Beamer wrote on May 10, 2012, 06:15:
Seriously, every complaint everyone here is making about "linear, on-rails" shooters applies to Half Life.
I guess Half Life ruined gaming, eh? You could only ever go in on direction, it was never mazes, you never criss-crossed back, every few feet you had a scripted sequence, there were fires that miraculously prevented you from going the easy way...
Man, Half Life sucked!
Nice little straw man you built there. Kick it harder, Beamer! Harder! Make that little man bleed! 
Creston |
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| 62. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 10, 2012, 10:06 |
wtf_man |
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Jerykk wrote on May 10, 2012, 03:56:
You seriously need to go back and replay SS2 and then replay Bioshock. The map designs and progression were very similar.
Perhaps you are right.
I have little recollection of Bioshock, since I was fairly disgusted with it, and never finished it. SS2, I have replayed many times, so I know it well. I do remember feeling like I was being herded, though. That said... that really isn't my main complaint. The game just felt so shallow compared to SS2 (IMO), that it was an insult to call it a "spiritual successor".
Maybe I expected too much... I don't know. But they definitely took a lot of the "RPG" out, and it was more shooter than RPG. It didn't even feel like a decent hybrid, like Deus Ex.
Maybe as a Half-Life type shooter, it stands up fairly well... but again, that is not what I was expecting as a "successor". |
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| 61. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 10, 2012, 08:11 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Beamer wrote on May 10, 2012, 06:15:
Seriously, every complaint everyone here is making about "linear, on-rails" shooters applies to Half Life.
I guess Half Life ruined gaming, eh? You could only ever go in on direction, it was never mazes, you never criss-crossed back, every few feet you had a scripted sequence, there were fires that miraculously prevented you from going the easy way...
Man, Half Life sucked! Exactly. There is nothing wrong with linear gameplay if the narrative supports it. Half-Life was designed as an underground facility and used the before/after explosion design to convey the idea that it was the destruction that was limiting your progression, not the design. Bioshock was linear but it was set in an underwater complex that was by virtue of its design claustrophobic. Metro 2033 did was very similar in that it had you moving through cramped underground environments, though when the levels did open they made the mistake of maintaining a linear route through.
By contrast, games like Call Of Duty and RAGE failed because they portray relatively large environments but only give you one route through which to progress. Call Of Duty also abuses the use of scripted sequences which reduce the immersion in the game, as does its use of infinite spawns and regenerating health.
They're going to have to be careful with Bioshock Infinite as the floating airship design is very open, which is in stark contrast to the underwater design of the original. Sure the individual areas are more open but that doesn't necessarily make it less linear. Games development has moved on since the original - Call Of Duty aside - and I don't think they can get away with having levels that are too linear. Games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Skyrim have changed people's expectations and both Far Cry 3 and Dishonored will be out by then as well, which both promote open designs with multiple routes to objectives. |
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Core i7 2600-K (4.6GHz) | 12GB DDR3 | GTX680 SLI (1215/1605) | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB SSD | Windows 8 Pro
Hazro HZ30Wie 30" | Saffire PRO 40 | Razer Mamba | Coolermaster RP1000W
SteamID: theyarecomingforyou |
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| 60. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 10, 2012, 06:15 |
Beamer |
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Seriously, every complaint everyone here is making about "linear, on-rails" shooters applies to Half Life.
I guess Half Life ruined gaming, eh? You could only ever go in on direction, it was never mazes, you never criss-crossed back, every few feet you had a scripted sequence, there were fires that miraculously prevented you from going the easy way...
Man, Half Life sucked! |
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| 59. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 10, 2012, 03:56 |
Jerykk |
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wtf_man wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:57:
Orogogus wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:21:
There was a lot more maze design in SS2, and more roaming up and down and across levels in Bioshock.
If by "maze design", you mean being able to go in more than one direction, instead of being herded in a pretty much singular general direction... then yeah... I would call the latter being "on rails".
Incidentally, SS2 had a lot of chambers you need to take a ladder or force beam up / down to, as well (on the same "level or map").
In Bioshock, I definitely got the feeling the only direction I could go was the direction that the game would let me... which felt pretty much "on rails". Granted... it wasn't as bad as some others, nowadays... but it definitely was a step backwards compared to SS2.
You seriously need to go back and replay SS2 and then replay Bioshock. The map designs and progression were very similar. In SS2, you had floors, which you gained access to in a linear fashion. In Bioshock, you had biodomes, which you gained access to in a linear fashion. In SS2, you could go back to any floor you've already gained access to. In Bioshock, you could go back to any biodome you've already gained access to. Both games have large, open, hub-like levels with lots of backtracking and some amount of verticality.
Here are the Bioshock maps: http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/bioshock/maps/maps.htm
Note that they are not linear. You act like SS2 was Fallout or something. It wasn't. It had lots of corridors and small rooms and you couldn't choose to go anywhere at any time. You had to complete tasks to gain access to new areas and floors, just like in Bioshock. |
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| 58. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 21:31 |
MajorD |
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Creston wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:31:
MajorD wrote on May 9, 2012, 19:39:
Metro 2033 was on rails. 
Hahahaha. MajorD wins the thread. 
Creston
Don't applaud, just throw money.
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| 57. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 21:19 |
Orogogus |
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Maze design is things like hallways doing switchbacks for no reason, figure 8 loops of corridor that have nothing in them except for one door at each end, that kind of thing. In general, anything that looks ridiculously more complicated than what people would actually ever build.
And in any case, System Shock had five times more of it than SS2. The whole maintenance level was basically four mazes around a hub area. As far as level complexity goes, SS >>> SS2 > Bioshock, the last mostly due to Bioshock being smaller overall. They all kind of suffer from having way more dead bodies and monsters than can be accounted for by the size of their environments, though.
I never got the feeling in Bioshock that I could only go in one direction. You were generally free to dick around all you wanted in areas that you'd already been in, to the point of taking the elevator to completely empty levels. There wasn't a lot of free exploration, but then, I didn't feel like there was in SS2, either. In either game you might have a choice of 2 or three rooms or small areas you haven't been in yet, there's not a whole lot of wandering off into sectors you don't have any business being in. |
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| 56. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:57 |
wtf_man |
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Orogogus wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:21:
There was a lot more maze design in SS2, and more roaming up and down and across levels in Bioshock.
If by "maze design", you mean being able to go in more than one direction, instead of being herded in a pretty much singular general direction... then yeah... I would call the latter being "on rails".
Incidentally, SS2 had a lot of chambers you need to take a ladder or force beam up / down to, as well (on the same "level or map").
In Bioshock, I definitely got the feeling the only direction I could go was the direction that the game would let me... which felt pretty much "on rails". Granted... it wasn't as bad as some others, nowadays... but it definitely was a step backwards compared to SS2. |
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| 55. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:42 |
space captain |
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Creston wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:38:
space captain wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:17:
Beamer wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:01:
DN3D was definitely better, but a decent amount of time later. I always considered it a competitor to Quake more than Doom, and thought it killed Quake (I kind of hated single player Quake.)
dude showed a picture of a duke3d map and you started talking about doom
that was my point
Err, that's E1M1, the very first map you played in Doom. It's not a Duke 3D map. (if you're talking about the map comparison image.)
Creston
err someone already pointed that out
i didnt play doom that much
i thought it sucked |
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| 54. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:38 |
Creston |
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space captain wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:17:
Beamer wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:01:
DN3D was definitely better, but a decent amount of time later. I always considered it a competitor to Quake more than Doom, and thought it killed Quake (I kind of hated single player Quake.)
dude showed a picture of a duke3d map and you started talking about doom
that was my point
Err, that's E1M1, the very first map you played in Doom. It's not a Duke 3D map. (if you're talking about the map comparison image.)
Creston |
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| 53. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:36 |
Creston |
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Beamer wrote on May 9, 2012, 19:43:
That picture, which people keep throwing up, is mostly idiotic, anyway. Does anyone really want to say that Doom, which was all flat, visible polygons and required criss-crossing back and forth over the same level with new monster closets opening up every time you find a new keycard, was really superior to most of what we have today?
What's idiotic is that we're talking about level design, and you bring up flat, visible polygons.
As for whether doom was more fun? Yes, absolutely. Gameplay wise, Doom shits all over "modern" shooters. There's never been a game that had a shotgun that felt as right as Doom's; there's never been a game where you could gather up all the monsters in a level and get them to fight each other; and there's never been another enemy as scary as the fucking Cyberdemon. And there's never been another game where if you turn up the difficulty level, the game just goes "Okay. Have another 800 monsters!" to the point where you saw entire areas of the level just FILLED with stuff to shoot.
There have also rarely been games where most monsters shoot something you can actually DODGE, rather than everything just being hitscan crap.
The "get key to open this door" bit was naff, but other than that, Doom was awesome. I enjoy a narrative shooter as much as the next guy, but the picture is, for most games, absolutely spot on. Doom gave you the idea that you were in an actual area. Modern shooters put you in a hospital, and there's miraculously only one way through the hospital because doors are closed, and certain areas are on fire (sprinklers? In hospitals? INSANE!) or collapsed, etc. And some games don't even bother with that and just put fucking invisible walls up.
Creston |
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| 52. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:36 |
space captain |
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wtf_man wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:21:
Actually... that is a Doom Map... but that picture was used in an Ars Techinca article to compare Duke 3D to Duke Nuke 'Em Forever.
yeh doom maps did suck pretty bad, but its true they were way less corridor based than modern SP games like COD etc |
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| 51. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:31 |
Creston |
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MajorD wrote on May 9, 2012, 19:39:
Metro 2033 was on rails.
Hahahaha. MajorD wins the thread.
Creston |
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Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:30 |
Creston |
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Ratty wrote on May 9, 2012, 14:12:
Unlike in Skyrim where you can murder someone right in front of a merchant and they'll happily continue hawking their wares and making cheerful conversation.
Urrrr, they actually do not do that in Skyrim.
Creston |
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| 49. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:21 |
wtf_man |
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space captain wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:17:
dude showed a picture of a duke3d map and you started talking about doom
Actually... that is a Doom Map... but that picture was used in an Ars Techinca article to compare Duke 3D to Duke Nuke 'Em Forever.
My point was... that picture pretty much represents SS2 vs. Bioshock, too. (Although the mass cutscenes thing didn't really apply) |
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| 48. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:21 |
Orogogus |
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| 47. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:20 |
Smellfinger |
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Beamer wrote on May 9, 2012, 19:01:
That picture, which people keep throwing up, is mostly idiotic, anyway. Does anyone really want to say that Doom, which was all flat, visible polygons and required criss-crossing back and forth over the same level with new monster closets opening up every time you find a new keycard, was really superior to most of what we have today?
HELL YEAH!
I may have loved running up and down every wall hitting space trying to find secrets when I was 13, but I'm pretty happy to have something that pays attention to plot and pacing now. Yes, CoD does neither, no, not every game is CoD.
Plot = Third rate wanna-be Hollywood garbage.
Pacing = Lets script the shit out of this straight line from point A to point B.
Just drop me into a cleverly designed monster maze, please. |
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| 46. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:17 |
space captain |
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Beamer wrote on May 9, 2012, 20:01:
DN3D was definitely better, but a decent amount of time later. I always considered it a competitor to Quake more than Doom, and thought it killed Quake (I kind of hated single player Quake.)
dude showed a picture of a duke3d map and you started talking about doom
that was my point |
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| 45. |
Re: BioShock Infinite Delayed |
May 9, 2012, 20:06 |
wtf_man |
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64 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
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