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Dark Souls GFWL Petition

Following today's announcement of the Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition for Windows, which was supported by a petition, a new petition is now online to protest the plan to use Games for Windows LIVE (thanks Reddit). Here's word:

GFWL is unpopular, difficult to use, inconvenient, has terrible online support (a key feature in Dark Souls), and is downright unpleasant. After anxiously awaiting a PC release for this fantastic game it feels like a real slap in the face hearing Dark Souls will use Games for Windows Live. We recommend Valve's Steamworks in place, as this DRM is much easier to use, less intrusive, more reliable, and more accepted among PC gamers. Please reconsider the use of GFWL, or offer the game on both services. Thank you for taking the effort to port this game, but for a lot of customers it's Steam or no sale.

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64. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 16, 2012, 18:24 Dwarf-Snowninja
 
Given the issues with GFWL (I've noticed the login delay/latency thing Vemo has mentioned) and the weirdness DS has with certain aspects of the online sections of the game... I can't imagine this going well together.
Worse still, with certain games (DOW2 and Batman:AA), I'll get the random crapping out of the GFWL interface, either getting an obnoxious and large hiccup at the wrong time, or having the game puke me to desktop. Having that happen in a game as difficult as DS would be beyond frustrating.
 
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63. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 13, 2012, 19:39 Rea1One
 
Well to bad for them if they say Steam or no sale.
Im going to buy this game, enjoy it lots and get all the GFWL achievements too.
 
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62. Re: not surprising coming from you Apr 13, 2012, 09:33 nin
 
IMAPC wrote on Apr 13, 2012, 01:51:
It exposes them as a bunch of spoiled and ignorant children who don't understand the economics of game development nor the technical facets and capabilities of what they are complaining about.

So which banned account are you?

 
http://www.nin.com/pub/tension/
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61. Re: You're 0 for 5 on Games for Windows Live. Apr 13, 2012, 08:52 Verno
 
IMAPC wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 22:50:
False. Keys are saved and tied to the GFWL account used to enter them. They are also stored in encrypted form locally in <root>\Users\<username>\AppData\Local\Microsoft\XLive\Titles

SSA keys yes, non-SSA keys no. The latter of which comprised the majority of issued keys until the past two years. Amusingly you could use the same key for many titles as Microsoft cared so little that it was a shared pool. Most devs I know didn't like that too much!

False. All of Microsoft's "Live" websites like Hotmail use the same login service, so there is plenty of bandwidth backing them. Are you on dial-up Internet or have some shit ISP?

He's referring to the actual login process of the GFWL client, not the backend or some measurement of latency between them. Yes, it does take a strange amount of time to process though I wouldn't say its drastically higher than competing services.

False. It depends on the game. Some GFWL games do.

It is a very new feature without a lot of support so I'd say his point stands.

GFWL update process takes no longer than Windows Update as they both use the same BITS service and infrastructure.

It takes the client a strange amount of time to apply small patches even on high powered machines so I have to agree with him. Regardless of what powers it the process is often much slower manually applying or using a competing service.

GFWL offers essentially the same features to Windows games that XBOX Live offers to 360 games. Those are its advantages. Is it perfect? Hell no, but it's also a hell of a lot better than you think given that what you think about it is almost totally wrong

Seems like a sidestep to me, you seem to be confusing a developers desire to use GFWL to ease porting with an end users perspective. PC consumers don't care what it offers 360 games, most of the PC features are implemented in a rudimentary manner. Even relatively simple features in the client like chatting and game invites are cumbersome.
 
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60. Re: not surprising coming from you Apr 13, 2012, 07:45 Dades
 
IMAPC wrote on Apr 13, 2012, 01:51:
It exposes them as a bunch of spoiled and ignorant children who don't understand the economics of game development nor the technical facets and capabilities of what they are complaining about.

If the publisher uses something that can negatively affect the game then they might not give them money. They don't need to understand the economics of game development or whatever vague technical facets you mention because they hold the most important card in the form of money.

This is just feedback, they can ignore it if they want but it might affect their bottom line. There is nothing spoiled about wanting a good gameplay experience unmarred by things like DRM and a framework that the original maker doesn't even have interest in maintaining. GFWL is a nuisance and its not out of the question for people to want something else given that it can often be a total distraction from the game itself.

This isn't the cherry on top, this is a little turd. You don't brush it off and eat anyway, you send it back and ask for another.

This comment was edited on Apr 13, 2012, 07:54.
 
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59. Re: not surprising coming from you Apr 13, 2012, 01:51 IMAPC
 
TheEmissary wrote on Apr 13, 2012, 00:54:
How does that make the community look when you spend months asking for a game then reject it because you don't like the online/achievement/DRM scheme.
It exposes them as a bunch of spoiled and ignorant children who don't understand the economics of game development nor the technical facets and capabilities of what they are complaining about.
 
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58. Re: not surprising coming from you Apr 13, 2012, 00:54 TheEmissary
 
Verno wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 09:19:
IMAPC wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 01:39:
Anyone who says they have never had a problem using Steam either has hardly used Steam, is a lying or delusional fanboy, or has a really poor memory. Judging from your nerdy, pudgy baby-face, it's fanboy in your case.

Sure cupcake and I'm sure your personal photo is a Fabio portrait. You're calling someone else a nerd on a PC gaming website, the irony is almost overwhelming. Steam is pretty stable these days, it's quite conceivable someone could have never encountered difficulty with it. The back end has its issues from time to time but even those are pretty rare and mostly relegated to launch hour problems for major titles. Not everyone plays in north american prime time either.

People defending GFWL various stuff

This is on the same level of "ive never had any computer problems ever" crap we've heard from jokers in the past. People have encountered numerous problems with GFWL, its well documented at this point and not some rumor or something. When it is perfectly implemented and functioning optimally the best you can hope for is that it doesn't piss you off which isn't saying much about the client. It has no redeeming features or functionality that justifies its use.

Microsoft has had many years to improve on it and has shown zero interest in doing so. It's been dead in the water for awhile now, I can't even remember the last time they patched in a major feature. They keep it on life support to maintain some foothold in the PC market and for the marketing money they make off the emails associated with Live logins, that's about it. The GFWL staff in the entertainment division was down to a couple of dudes last I heard.

For the most part you correct about GFWL. The last year they have even phased over the GFWL marketplace and website to simply Xbox.com. They basically want to unify the two halves of the same service. You can see this with online portion of Windows 8. The Windows 8 Dev preview had an Xbox Live dashboard app that looked exactly like the one on the 360. It is fair to say that major features won't be rolled out until Windows 8 does.

I personally don't like Games For Windows Live either but its not worth complaining about. How does that make the community look when you spend months asking for a game then reject it because you don't like the online/achievement/DRM scheme.
 
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57. You're 0 for 5 on Games for Windows Live. Apr 12, 2012, 22:50 IMAPC
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 08:46:
GFWL doesn't remember serial keys
False. Keys are saved and tied to the GFWL account used to enter them. They are also stored in encrypted form locally in <root>\Users\<username>\AppData\Local\Microsoft\XLive\Titles

makes backing up saved games a nightmare
True, if you are an idiot with no computer skills. False, if you know how to copy files from <root>\Users\<username>\AppData\Local\Microsoft\XLive\Content

takes ages to login
False. All of Microsoft's "Live" websites like Hotmail use the same login service, so there is plenty of bandwidth backing them. Are you on dial-up Internet or have some shit ISP?

It doesn't even save game progress to the cloud.
False. It depends on the game. Some GFWL games do.

And whenever it needs to update itself it takes ages
GFWL update process takes no longer than Windows Update as they both use the same BITS service and infrastructure.

If offers no advantages to me, only disadvantages.
GFWL offers essentially the same features to Windows games that XBOX Live offers to 360 games. Those are its advantages. Is it perfect? Hell no, but it's also a hell of a lot better than you think given that what you think about it is almost totally wrong.

This comment was edited on Apr 13, 2012, 01:47.
 
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56. removed Apr 12, 2012, 22:35 IMAPC
 
* REMOVED *
This comment was deleted on Apr 13, 2012, 08:01.
 
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55. This is not simply a matter of DRM choice. Apr 12, 2012, 22:03 hb3d
 
saluk wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 18:53:
I wish they could let us choose what they use...Give us the option and see what we actually choose.
That is a nice idea, but it won't work economically for this game because GFWL is being used for more than just DRM. Achievements and multiplayer functionality will also be using the GFWL API. This game is a port of the existing XBOX360 version and that version already uses XBOX Live functionality for its multiplayer features, etc. So, the best development option to save both time and money is to use GFWL since the existing XBOX Live code will basically port straight over to GFWL.

If this were just a matter of DRM, your suggestion would be viable. But, expecting developers to create different versions of their games with major functionality written for multiple API's while still targetting the same platform, Windows PC, is not realistic.
 
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54. Re: Here's an explanation and fix for your GFWL problem. Apr 12, 2012, 21:45 hb3d
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 11:08:
That is, enlightening. A good thing that MS clearly states that when you google GFWL Crash on Startup... urgh.
That's the real problem with GFWL. Most of its supposed problems can be solved by end users, but the software is poorly documented for them. Part of that is intentional since Microsoft doesn't want XLive's DRM and cheat-protection compromised.

But If i set it to automatic it starts on startup no?
Yes, it will run on startup then. So, you have a choice. Either set it to manual and turn it on yourself before running your games, or set it to automatic and run the service all the time. The service only uses a small amount of RAM so it's not a big imposition if you run it all the time.
 
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53. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 12, 2012, 18:53 saluk
 
I wish they could let us choose what they use. Buy it on steam get steamworks. Buy it from one of the other digital stores, get GFWL.

Buy it from gog and get no drm...

Give us the option and see what we actually choose.
 
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52. Re: Here's an explanation and fix for your GFWL problem. Apr 12, 2012, 11:08 eRe4s3r
 


That is, enlightening. A good thing that MS clearly states that when you google GFWL Crash on Startup... urgh.

But If i set it to automatic it starts on startup no?
 
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51. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 12, 2012, 10:42 Verno
 
InBlack wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 10:29:
Verno where did you get a working version of TIE fighter?

I had a tarball laying around on my NAS, I think it was a rip I made from the reissued cdrom version.
 
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50. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 12, 2012, 10:29 InBlack
 
Verno where did you get a working version of TIE fighter?  
Avatar 46994
 
I have a nifty blue line!
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49. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 12, 2012, 10:21 Verno
 
Prez wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 10:16:
I appreciate the sentiment behind the petition since GFWL is absolutely awful and needs to be killed, but petitions are useless. Come to think of it, even as bad as Origin is, it's still better than GFWL. It's just an abysmal platform.

A petition is what brought this game to the PC platform
 
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48. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 12, 2012, 10:16 Prez
 
I appreciate the sentiment behind the petition since GFWL is absolutely awful and needs to be killed, but petitions are useless. Come to think of it, even as bad as Origin is, it's still better than GFWL. It's just an abysmal platform.  
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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47. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 12, 2012, 09:36 necrosis
 
Rattlehead wrote on Apr 11, 2012, 20:04:
Wow seriously? They are making an enhanced edition with extra content and they still find a reason to complain?

I never had a problem with GFWL ever, I don't know why people complain about it. Oh wait people love to complain. I have 25 hours with Arkham City, around 90 with Dawn of War 2 and 60 hours with Fallout 3 and zero problems. In fact I never had those annoying connection timed out errors I have with Steam.

And gamers wonder why nobody takes them seriously.
Lucky you. Now please go away.
 
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46. Re: Dark Souls GFWL Petition Apr 12, 2012, 09:34 necrosis
 
SXO wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 08:58:
I would even prefer EA's Origin or Ubisoft's Uplay over Microsoft's GFWL. I've had serious issues with GFWL numerous times, aside from just how annoying the basic functionality is.
As much as it pains me to say it I fully agree. I have had less BS problems with Origin and UPlay combined. I still don't like them but I have not had technical issues with either, yet.
 
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45. Re: not surprising coming from you Apr 12, 2012, 09:19 Verno
 
IMAPC wrote on Apr 12, 2012, 01:39:
Anyone who says they have never had a problem using Steam either has hardly used Steam, is a lying or delusional fanboy, or has a really poor memory. Judging from your nerdy, pudgy baby-face, it's fanboy in your case.

Sure cupcake and I'm sure your personal photo is a Fabio portrait. You're calling someone else a nerd on a PC gaming website, the irony is almost overwhelming. Steam is pretty stable these days, it's quite conceivable someone could have never encountered difficulty with it. The back end has its issues from time to time but even those are pretty rare and mostly relegated to launch hour problems for major titles. Not everyone plays in north american prime time either.

People defending GFWL various stuff

This is on the same level of "ive never had any computer problems ever" crap we've heard from jokers in the past. People have encountered numerous problems with GFWL, its well documented at this point and not some rumor or something. When it is perfectly implemented and functioning optimally the best you can hope for is that it doesn't piss you off which isn't saying much about the client. It has no redeeming features or functionality that justifies its use.

Microsoft has had many years to improve on it and has shown zero interest in doing so. It's been dead in the water for awhile now, I can't even remember the last time they patched in a major feature. They keep it on life support to maintain some foothold in the PC market and for the marketing money they make off the emails associated with Live logins, that's about it. The GFWL staff in the entertainment division was down to a couple of dudes last I heard.
 
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