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Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned

In spite of EA saying the original "under-performed," a sequel to Bulletstorm was in the works at People Can Fly before being cancelled by parent company Epic Games reports GameSpot, who hear from Epic president Mike Capps on the topic. Mike indicates they have put the Polish developer on a different project they will "be announcing pretty soon," though there is no clue if this is the recently revealed PC game Epic is planning. "We thought a lot about a sequel, and had done some initial development on it, but we found a project that we thought was a better fit for People Can Fly," he said. "We haven't announced that yet, but we will be announcing it pretty soon." He goes on to praise Bulletstorm and says he'd love to go back to the property, "but right now we don't have anything to talk about." Just to stir the pot a little, the story concludes with Capps' comment that sales of the PC version may have been harmed by piracy: "We made a PC version of Bulletstorm, and it didn't do very well on PC and I think a lot of that was due to piracy. It wasn't the best PC port ever, sure, but also piracy was a pretty big problem."

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239 Replies. 12 pages. Viewing page 5.
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159. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 21:59 ASeven
 
Kosumo wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 20:52:
As for that reply from Aseven - I'm indiffent to the artical I linked to, was just using it to illistarte one of the differnetions of "free riding". What do you make of the (2 year old) OECD report into the matter then? (it was in reply to 'show me where it make econmic harm')

I'll quote another user who pretty much said what I would say:

Kajetan wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 19:06:
I know this already. It's quite a good introduction to the topic. It shows the main difference between tangible and digital goods, the possible reasons for the existence of a pirate market for digital goods. It also mentions that people also want to BUY content even if they can get it for free.

But this study does not show that the non-commercial "piracy" on digital content hurts sales.

in the end what we're talking about is non-commercial piracy of Bulletstorm and though commercial piracy does hurt, non-commercial piracy is a complex beast and not easily broken down into numbers.
 
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158. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 20:56 ventry
 
If "piracy" is your biggest worry then you shouldn't be developing games. Pure and simple.

Yes, I'm looking at you Epic.
 
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157. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 20:52 Kosumo
 
Hey EricFate, I'd say that EA does believe that. It's like some people around here think that they have a meeting and say 'piracy made it fail' and then they just all go 'add more DRM next time'.

These companies are making millions, ten's of millions, hundred's of millions making games across all platforms - they are not as dumb and unaware of what works and what does not as some people make out.

They would have never lasted this long and made that much money if they did not turthfully review their own products. I know it popular amongst some to think they are just a bunch of suits looking out for their share holders (which is true on some levels) but to try to say that they don't understand the industry and the relaity in it, is just foolish.

As for that reply from Aseven - I'm indiffent to the artical I linked to, was just using it to illistarte one of the differnetions of "free riding". What do you make of the (2 year old) OECD report into the matter then? (it was in reply to 'show me where it make econmic harm')
 
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156. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 20:39 Nucas
 
something about this headline was tickling my memory, so i did a little search of the site;

Epic on Bulletstorm Sales

mike capps, about 8 months ago, discussing how bulletstorm sold barely 300k units on ALL platforms.

so capps obviously knows the truth, but is deliberately spinning the blame to piracy as usual. that part's not in doubt. what i wonder about is his agenda. marginalizing the pc as a platform? or trying to obfuscate the failure on every front of this game's design, marketing and positioning.

if i had to venture a guess, i'd blame their premium pricing. this game was never meant to be a 60 dollar title. call of duty can get away with that shit, not no-name IP. i can only call on my own experience, and at 40 or 50 this game was weird looking enough that i would have bought into it on release, but 60? no way, and then the word of mouth caught on.

got it during steam sale for 5 bucks.
 
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155. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 20:15 EricFate
 
Why does EA find it so hard to believe that a buggy console port which contained less than eight hours worth of gameplay and one-note multiplayer that got boring after 5 rounds didn't garner many sales at their $60 dollar price point? The game was fun, but not $60 worth of fun. More like $15 worth of fun.  
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154. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 20:11 Sepharo
 
Eirikrautha wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 16:48:
I don't know what's worse... your faulty analogy or your appeal to it in order to support restricting human freedom! First, it wouldn't take you more than five minutes to research the "Wild" West and find out that it was far from "wild." The most homicides ever recorded in Tombstone, AZ in one year? Three (and that was so extraordinary/infamous that they have made books and movies about it ever since). How about Dodge City? Five. Deadwood? Seven. Hell, seven murders is a slow WEEKEND in Detroit!

Hah, way to become the thing you're railing against.

Even if we made the ridiculous jump to assume that Detroit murders only happen on weekends, we would still be under 7 murders a weekend for 2010 and 2011.

Found this bit of morbid neatness too:
http://chamspage.blogspot.com/2011/11/2011-detroit-homicides-january-thru.html


... So what's this thread about? Oh yeah, I bought Bulletstorm for cheap during the Steam sale but haven't had the chance to play it yet. I kind of regret the impulse buy because I don't want to support PC bashing, a bad port, and lack of jump (and MP) in what initially looked to be a pretty fun fast-paced FPS.
 
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153. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 20:07 HorrorScope
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:38:
You can pirate skyrim, but it is the #1 game on Steam since it came out. Make a great game and you have great sales.

Piracy is a red herring for shitty games.

A pirated game != a lost sale.

Even if it was, it's still obvious you can make bank making a great PC game.
 
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152. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 20:02 HorrorScope
 
Paketep wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 19:53:
Edit: Also, Bulletstorm used GFWL. If that isn't a huge neon sign saying DON'T BUY ME, I don't know what is.

True. That software is a curse to sales.
 
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151. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 20:01 HorrorScope
 
Veterator wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 19:39:
So......if they want to say "Hey you know people won't pay our 40+ bucks we need to make this game, so we're not producing it." No problem. Blaming piracy is just bullshit IMO. I didn't pirate it, I wouldn't have bought it if it hadn't been for the coupon expiring and it being on sale. So they need to consider other reasons before I'll believe "Piracy is the reason for everything bad".

Much like Indie games, I ain't going to buy em without some awesome and plentiful reviews of the game or unless they are sold in a bundle where at least half the bundle looks decent or one game REALLY sticks out. If one of them tells me piracy ruins their sales, I won't buy their shit because they are obviously not going to listen to anything I have to say or see what really bugs me about their game versus other stuff I buy. So fuck em.



This, the landscape is changing, we are getting great value all over the place. If the big boys can only think of top dollar games, well they can wait in line after I'm done reviewing the bargains out there first. If they want to make a $20 game and sell it for $40, there marketing blunder, not mine.
 
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150. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 19:57 [VG]Reagle
 
Perhaps the reason Bulletstorm was cancelled is BECUASE IT SUCKED ASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS...  
Avatar 8515
 
I am MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better now.
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149. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 19:53 Paketep
 
Since everybody is pulling facts out of their asses, here's mine: DRM causes WAY more lost sales than piracy.

As for Bulletstorm, it was a shitty game, it had shitty marketing, and almost everybody who speaks for Epic nowadays (Capps, Cliffy or Rein) is a douchebag who first talks down to potential customers and then cries piracy when their game doesn't sell. Epic's last good game was UT2004, and that was really a patch that fixed UT2003. They lost it long ago, probably due to letting Microsoft put their dirty hands up their asses.

And blaming piracy for a lack of Bulletstorm 2 is laughable. If your game doesn't sale for consoles, and your game doesn't sell for $5 in a Steam sale, then it must be a turd of DNF proportions. My god, not even the console kids will buy it!. What more do you need to know?.

Edit: Also, Bulletstorm used GFWL. If that isn't a huge neon sign saying DON'T BUY ME, I don't know what is.

This comment was edited on Apr 10, 2012, 19:59.
 
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148. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 19:39 Veterator
 
Got it for like 2 bucks using amazon coupon from christmas. It was a decent game but some of the levels ran too long for my taste or it felt like I wasn't progressing because of them being very similar...mostly later in the game.

There were some levels that were very cool and some of the boss encounters were cool. But the game was extremely short overall and some of the problem areas were more irritating than the cool stuff.

Uh.............I would have played the sequel when it reached 5 bucks. I would not recommend buying the original for anything over 10 given it has zero replay to me.....

So......if they want to say "Hey you know people won't pay our 40+ bucks we need to make this game, so we're not producing it." No problem. Blaming piracy is just bullshit IMO. I didn't pirate it, I wouldn't have bought it if it hadn't been for the coupon expiring and it being on sale. So they need to consider other reasons before I'll believe "Piracy is the reason for everything bad".

Much like Indie games, I ain't going to buy em without some awesome and plentiful reviews of the game or unless they are sold in a bundle where at least half the bundle looks decent or one game REALLY sticks out. If one of them tells me piracy ruins their sales, I won't buy their shit because they are obviously not going to listen to anything I have to say or see what really bugs me about their game versus other stuff I buy. So fuck em.


 
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147. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 19:23 Luke
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 19:00:
Kajetan wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 18:13:
CJ_Parker wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:23:
Well, why don't you set a good example and start providing facts, hard numbers and data on why piracy is NOT a problem first?
Where are your numbers and facts?

See. You can't either.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf
http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-may-boost-sales-111102/
http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf
Pirates Are The Music Industry’s Most Valuable Customers
Game Changing Study Puts Piracy in Perspective

There are some reports and documents as a start, hinting that non-commercial content piracy is not as bad as being told by the industry for decades.

Where are yours?

WTF? It was you who made up the rule that no "articles" (because they are all full of made up numbers and LIES right?) may be posted and then all you got is a number of links to umm... well, articles and opinion pieces? Wasn't it you who demanded HARD data, facts, and numbers? And then all you got is... this^

Hmmmppfff.... bwwahahaha L to the O to the L, loser

Done with this thread. You guys keep on living in denial of the piracy problem, sure, go ahead if it makes you feel better but don't be surprised if PC gaming goes down the shitter even faster because of y'allz ignorance.
Oh, and in between posts where you defend and justify piracy don't forget to check your taskbar for the progress on that download you got going. Ya'd hate to miss getting on that latest freebie ride as soon as it's done wouldn'tcha?

When they start to make games again with the passion they had back in the 90's then sales will rise , tho all they do is start up the " make a game setup.exe , and in the end convert it to all port¨s shitty game makers today
 
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146. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 19:09 Kajetan
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 19:00:
... bullshit ...
I love you too
 
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145. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 19:06 Kajetan
 
Kosumo wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 18:38:
Start with this if you like - OECD Piracy Link
I know this already. It's quite a good introduction to the topic. It shows the main difference between tangible and digital goods, the possible reasons for the existence of a pirate market for digital goods. It also mentions that people also want to BUY content even if they can get it for free.

But this study does not show that the non-commercial "piracy" on digital content hurts sales.
 
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144. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 19:00 CJ_Parker
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 18:13:
CJ_Parker wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 17:23:
Well, why don't you set a good example and start providing facts, hard numbers and data on why piracy is NOT a problem first?
Where are your numbers and facts?

See. You can't either.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d10423.pdf
http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-may-boost-sales-111102/
http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf
Pirates Are The Music Industry’s Most Valuable Customers
Game Changing Study Puts Piracy in Perspective

There are some reports and documents as a start, hinting that non-commercial content piracy is not as bad as being told by the industry for decades.

Where are yours?

WTF? It was you who made up the rule that no "articles" (because they are all full of made up numbers and LIES right?) may be posted and then all you got is a number of links to umm... well, articles and opinion pieces? Wasn't it you who demanded HARD data, facts, and numbers? And then all you got is... this^

Hmmmppfff.... bwwahahaha L to the O to the L, loser

Done with this thread. You guys keep on living in denial of the piracy problem, sure, go ahead if it makes you feel better but don't be surprised if PC gaming goes down the shitter even faster because of y'allz ignorance.
Oh, and in between posts where you defend and justify piracy don't forget to check your taskbar for the progress on that download you got going. Ya'd hate to miss getting on that latest freebie ride as soon as it's done wouldn'tcha?
 
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143. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 18:57 HorrorScope
 
It's hard to find something that hasn't been said, but how about this...

Reviews and excitement wasn't there. That has nothing to do with piracy in the least. It had lackluster reception. A great game will have good sales and piracy. A bad game will have bad sales and piracy. So you just have to let the piracy go.

But the unique part is, I bought the game on a Steam Sale on the cheap. I still haven't played it. Your numbers of sold are actually skewed. You have 1 sale and really it's like reverse-piracy in some strange manner. I still haven't played it because again, there was next to no excitement around the game. Someday, mayyyybe. But I even own it and I yawn at it. No one cares about Bulletstorm. No one cares. That is your answer.

And yes to building up the PC one day, slamming it the next. WE DON'T WANT YOUR GAMES! We get it, you do not.
 
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142. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 18:51 RaZ0r!
 
I passed on Bulletstorm for $5 on Steam. Nuff said.  
Avatar 8127
 
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141. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 18:49 ASeven
 
Kosumo wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 18:38:
*free riding - http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_3.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

This article is amongst the most biased, terrible articles ever written. The author has no idea of what he's talking about and he clearly has a heavy bias towards the industry, using fake data to support his thesis. in fact he doesn't even prove that piracy is the Free Rider problem at all. That author is the laughing stock of places like Slashdot and other tech sites. Don't believe me? Slashdot, and this guy here makes one of the most brilliant debunking articles one can read on the net on the subject of that tweakguides article. Be sure to read the 4 articles since that one is only the first one out of four.

To sum it up I leave the comments from a slashdot user who pretty much clears things up perfectly.


I call bullshit on this article, from a number of different angles!

One of the biggest reasons is lack of logical coherence. The author cites lots of numbers, but then does not actually put them together in an objective way to actually support his conclusions. In fact, his conclusions appear to be foregone. He seems to have ignored a good body of evidence that would lead to different conclusions.

For one example, he cites an article about game piracy on Macs. The article mentions the "pirate's argument" that it is okay to pirate because that person would not have bought the product anyway, therefore there is no lost sale. However, the article only discusses this topic from the point of view of whether it makes a valid moral or ethical argument.

The cited article (and main article too) ignore that several university studies have in fact shown that somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of piracy occurs when there would not have been a sale anyway. (In most cases because there was insufficient money to purchase the product, but there are several other reasons this occurs.) That may not be a sound ethical argument in favor of piracy, but that is irrelevant. More to the point: it is an economic reality. Economic realities are; they exist. Simply putting them down as unethical is to ignore the actual causes, and possible solutions, for the situation. Further, trying to prosecute -- and especially fine -- people for not buying a product they probably could not afford to buy anyway is completely counterproductive. It offers no societal solutions to the actual problem; it simply fosters fear and antagonism. And backlash, as the RIAA and MPAA are finding out, probably too late to do them much good. They were warned by the society of their customers, but they did not listen.

In another example of faulty logic, the author indulges in the classic logical Post Hoc fallacy argument to conclude that piracy causes DRM, not the other way around. (For those not familiar, this is the argument that because one thing happened after another, the earlier event must have caused the later event. This does not follow: in fact it is just as likely that some third event caused them both.) In particular, he states that a game that was released with no DRM resulted in lots of downloads, then claims that "The evidence is overwhelmingly clear: DRM does not cause piracy, piracy results in DRM." When in fact his "evidence" shows nothing of the sort.

As a systems manager and tech (and now Software Engineer) with many years experience, I can testify that there are a great many cases where, in fact, DRM causes piracy. One example is when I worked for an engineering company, which used quite a few proprietary programs for certain involved, specialized calculations. Many of those programs came with various forms of DRM. And I can tell you this in complete honesty: every one of the programs that used DRM failed on us. Almost always at an important point in the project. And I mean that literally: every single one of them failed, without exception. And in every case, the cause of the failure was the DRM. Further, our calls to support for the software were almost always unproductive: "You must not have installed it properly." or "You must have been tampering with the copy protection". Nonsense. We had paid a lot of good money for the software and were not about to treat it so casually.

In such cases, we were forced to either try to break the DRM ourselves, or to try to find a cracked version of the software, just to get the functionality we had already paid for! Which technically made us pirates. But it was DRM that forced us into piracy, not the other way around. Keep in mind that this was specialty software for which there was often no alternative product available. But just FYI, the invariable DRM failures did cause us to look for alternative products. Our official company policy became (this is true): "If there are alternative products available, or we can write our own, even if they are not as good, we will do that rather than buy programs that use any form of copy protection."

As a third example, on page 9 the author gives a decidedly (and pretty blatantly) one-sided presentation of StarForce, SecureROM, and Steam. In this presentation, he states, in effect, "even if these are rootkits or run at Ring 0, so what?" He further states that other tools used by users to crack DRM also install device drivers, and run at Ring 0.

For someone who is trying to make ethical arguments, this is worse than weak, it is biased almost to the point of outright dishonesty. The clear ethics here are these: the mentioned tools employed by end users are there voluntarily and openly: the user is aware of what is being installed and gives consent. In the case of DRM, the user is usually not aware and did not give consent for "secret" software to be installed at a level that can even override the operating system. There is a VERY BIG ethical issue there. And not just ethical, but practical. As a computer professional, I insist on being aware and in charge of what is being installed on my hardware and what is not, at ALL times!

The author completely ignores this issue, and unilaterally takes the side of the DRM vendors. To call it bias is to be complementary.

In summary, this article, while calling itself "thorough", is only thorough on the one side of the argument. It completely ignores important facts, causes, and ethical arguments for the other side of the issue.

This article is best ignored, for being the propaganda that it so clearly is.
 
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140. Re: Bulletstorm Sequel Cancelled; PC Piracy Mentioned Apr 10, 2012, 18:44 Steele Johnson
 
Kajetan wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 16:24:
Dev wrote on Apr 10, 2012, 16:18:
Protip: Make a good game and it usually sells, see skyrim.
There are plenty good quality games, which were commercial failures like Psychonauts or Beyond Good & Evil.

Yes, but that is not because of piracy. People will pirate games. Period. If you do the right thing, like make a great game, market it well, and retain a good track record of customer satisfaction, your game will sell well. I'm tired of these game companies copping out and blaming their crappy games or crappy marketing on piracy. So many companies have already proven that you can still make a lot of money on the pc version of their game! Sheesh!

This comment was edited on Apr 10, 2012, 19:01.
 
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