45 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
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| 25. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 19:37 |
Prez |
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Preach it. Any business model where the price of simple operating expenses like servers isn't priced into the box is extremely flawed and can't be blamed on the customers.
Agreed. If they really go through with this I'd be amazed (and disheartened) if it actually was successful. |
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| 24. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 18:42 |
Dades |
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That's a pretty iffy argument. If it's an online game, then most likely your used copy is tied to an account and won't work anyway. As for maintaining servers, that's only done as long as it's profitable anyway, and then they are shut down, as we see happen all the time.
Preach it. Any business model where the price of simple operating expenses like servers isn't priced into the box is extremely flawed and can't be blamed on the customers. The servers and associated labour is often retasked from one game to another while abandoning the older software anyway. Many other industries deal with these things all the time and don't demand handouts from customers because they have to deal with resale.
Are the greedy console companies going to give people lower prices in exchange for their loss of rights? More sales like PC customers get? Fuck no. |
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| 23. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 18:05 |
Wowbagger_TIP |
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Beamer wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 16:40:
Verno wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 15:23:
I don't like commercial used game sales, I think companies like Gamestop are glorified pawnshops. That said, the trouble with used games is that you can't separate the commercialization of it from everything like lending, sharing and individual resale. The gaming industry isn't a special little snowflake. Movies, music and books have managed to thrive with resale industries often in spite of challenging changes in technology and incompetent leadership.
I disagree with this portion of your statement. It is somewhat of a special snowflake, for a few reasons:
1) There is no major commercial used retailer for movies, music or books. At all. This is the prime reason game companies get so damn annoyed. There's TONS of them. Half-Price Books is a big one around here. Not sure if they're nationwide or not, but if not, then there are others that fill that niche. They sell used books, movies, music and even used games.
Beamer wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 16:40:
2) For books especially, there's serious depreciation on used. Can anyone here say they never found snot, hair, or mysterious stains on a used/library book? I wouldn't want to bring that into my bed. But a used game either works or doesn't work, so there's extremely little depreciation Well, if it doesn't work, then that's pretty serious depreciation. Also, you can check out books and even movies and music before you buy them. So don't buy one that has snot on it. That's a lot harder to do with games.
Beamer wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 16:40:
3) There's no support for movies, music or books. Once a sale is made that's it, it's done. Video games have patches and online servers to maintain. That's a pretty iffy argument. If it's an online game, then most likely your used copy is tied to an account and won't work anyway. As for maintaining servers, that's only done as long as it's profitable anyway, and then they are shut down, as we see happen all the time.
Beamer wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 16:40:
I'll readily agree that the last two aren't extremely strong arguments, it's really the first that holds up strongest: GameStop is really just seen as screwing the industry over. Take that out of the equation and no one really cared because no central party was sitting there getting rich off of it. And the used market was never strong in those areas, ever. I don't have time to look it up, but I'd wager the used game market is exponentially higher in percentage of total game sales then books, music or movies ever were.
Worth noting that two of those three have gone very heavy towards digital-only, with the third kicking and screaming following it.
I agree with the rest of your post. It's no danger, just bruised egos and perceived unfairness. Whether it's Gamestop or just a bunch of other random chains filling the niche, it will continue, and the industry will continue as well. Libraries and used book stores didn't bring down the publishing industry. Gaming will survive just fine as well. They may not make the pie-in-the-sky profits that the publisher CEOs wish for, but they will continue to make plenty of games because there's plenty of money in it for them anyway.
I personally can't stand GameStop and would never buy a game from them, but that's because I don't see them as providing me any significant value. I'd much rather buy directly from a developer. I think my Steam account speaks for itself though. I buy lots of games at the prices that I think they're worth. Sometimes I buy first day, other times I wait for a good sale. That's the market. They need to learn to live with it. |
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| 22. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 17:47 |
Bhruic |
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1) There is no major commercial used retailer for movies, music or books. At all. This is the prime reason game companies get so damn annoyed.
There was, for a long, LONG time, multiple companies dedicated to renting out movies. There still are, in different formats. The amount of people renting movies was most likely at least as high, if not higher, than the percentage of people who buy used games.
3) There's no support for movies, music or books. Once a sale is made that's it, it's done. Video games have patches and online servers to maintain
And who's fault is that? Publishers have insisted on having control over servers, so if they want to blame anyone for that, it's themselves. And movies, music and books don't need patches because they get edited properly beforehand. Again, something that publishers could do, but don't. If publishers insist on creating situations that cause themselves problems, they don't then get to whine about the problems they have. |
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| 21. |
Re: The x86 PlayStation 4 could signal a sea-change in the console industry. |
Apr 2, 2012, 17:43 |
killer_roach |
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LittleMe wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 16:50:
Great article. I'm shocked they'd release a console in 2013 with an AMD 66xx series GPU. That's archaic even when released. I would think at least a an AMD 7870 series GPU would be more up-to-date. Sheesh the PS4 will be dominated by PC tech right from day 1. Good news for PC gaming, if true.
Other than the fact that developers will be targeting antiquated hardware for the next 5-8 years... |
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| 20. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 17:26 |
Jdrez |
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Verno wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 10:33:
Xbox 720 will require an always-on internet connection as an anti-piracy measure.
Can't wait until I have to display my drivers license to Kinect in order to load my games.
Next up: "Please insert your finger into the pin-prick slot for a blood test before starting." |
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| 19. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 16:55 |
Ferazel |
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avianflu wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 15:18:
One could buy used cartridge games since the very first consoles and same goes for PC's software on disk starting in the early 1980's.
So why is it an industry-destroying issue suddenly *now*? It is a valid question. Sorry but it all sounds like PR spin to me.
And dont even get me going on the consumer rip-off that is DLC. It is only getting worse.
"Want to see the real ending of Fallout 3? Give me 10 more bucks."
It's not a new problem for the industry, as you stated that this has always been present. However, now that there is technology to counter this problem (always-on internet connection, lack of physical product), you can't be surprised to see developers/publishers wanting to get as much money as they can. You can't be surprised by that deverlopers/publishers are leveraging it to their advantage. Which means the end of resell of which they receive no benefit.
DLC is a topic for another day. Just remember the PC industry had a successful model for many years, but it was called the expansion pack. |
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| 18. |
The x86 PlayStation 4 could signal a sea-change in the console industry. |
Apr 2, 2012, 16:50 |
LittleMe |
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| Great article. I'm shocked they'd release a console in 2013 with an AMD 66xx series GPU. That's archaic even when released. I would think at least a an AMD 7870 series GPU would be more up-to-date. Sheesh the PS4 will be dominated by PC tech right from day 1. Good news for PC gaming, if true. |
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| Political freedom can only be preceded by economic freedom which is preceded by monetary freedom. |
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| 17. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 16:48 |
LittleMe |
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Krovven wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 14:54:
If you rent a game, devs/pubs dont see a dime over the initial sale to the Rental company.
The question is, if the rental market wasn't there, would that initial sale happen in the first place? I think very often it wouldn't and the devs & pubs would be out of a sale anyway.
If publishers want to limit or profit from rentals why can't they update the software license and charge a premium for rights to rent out the game. I'm all for their freedom to sell their product as they wish, of course.
If renting a game costs $1, then the game isn't worth much to play. A functioning market sorts that stuff out.
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| Political freedom can only be preceded by economic freedom which is preceded by monetary freedom. |
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| 16. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 16:40 |
Beamer |
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Verno wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 15:23:
I don't like commercial used game sales, I think companies like Gamestop are glorified pawnshops. That said, the trouble with used games is that you can't separate the commercialization of it from everything like lending, sharing and individual resale. The gaming industry isn't a special little snowflake. Movies, music and books have managed to thrive with resale industries often in spite of challenging changes in technology and incompetent leadership.
I disagree with this portion of your statement. It is somewhat of a special snowflake, for a few reasons:
1) There is no major commercial used retailer for movies, music or books. At all. This is the prime reason game companies get so damn annoyed.
2) For books especially, there's serious depreciation on used. Can anyone here say they never found snot, hair, or mysterious stains on a used/library book? I wouldn't want to bring that into my bed. But a used game either works or doesn't work, so there's extremely little depreciation
3) There's no support for movies, music or books. Once a sale is made that's it, it's done. Video games have patches and online servers to maintain
I'll readily agree that the last two aren't extremely strong arguments, it's really the first that holds up strongest: GameStop is really just seen as screwing the industry over. Take that out of the equation and no one really cared because no central party was sitting there getting rich off of it. And the used market was never strong in those areas, ever. I don't have time to look it up, but I'd wager the used game market is exponentially higher in percentage of total game sales then books, music or movies ever were.
Worth noting that two of those three have gone very heavy towards digital-only, with the third kicking and screaming following it.
I agree with the rest of your post. It's no danger, just bruised egos and perceived unfairness. |
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| 15. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 16:00 |
DG |
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Xbox 720 will require an always-on internet connection as an anti-piracy measure. BS.
Media pre-releases, maybe. Consumer units, nope. |
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| 14. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 15:23 |
Verno |
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One could buy used cartridge games since the very first consoles and same goes for PC's software on disk starting in the early 1980's.
So why is it an industry-destroying issue suddenly *now*? It is a valid question. Sorry but it all sounds like PR spin to me.
And dont even get me going on the consumer rip-off that is DLC. It is only getting worse.
"Want to see the real ending of Fallout 3? Give me 10 more bucks."
I don't like commercial used game sales, I think companies like Gamestop are glorified pawnshops. That said, the trouble with used games is that you can't separate the commercialization of it from everything like lending, sharing and individual resale. The gaming industry isn't a special little snowflake. Movies, music and books have managed to thrive with resale industries often in spite of challenging changes in technology and incompetent leadership.
The gaming industry is in very good shape overall, the "danger" of used games has always been a bit overblown and is more about maximizing profits than rewarding artists. Publishers already shaft developers every chance they get under the always popular "its just business" catchall. Overpaying for a product isn't ensuring the survival of your favorite dev, you aren't putting manna from heaven into the mouths of his children or something silly. One product failure can mean the death of an entire company. Everyone buying their games first hand won't change that either, its due to the revenue model being so limited which is part of why we see so many supplements now. Developers aren't going to suddenly get better profit sharing and more contract power out of it either. The industry has already adapted anyway as you said, DLC continues to increase and the margins of it go well beyond making up for used game sales if ME3 is any indicator.
Put differently, the Tumblers and Gamestops of the world piss me off but I recognize that its a necessary evil so that I'm able to trade games with a buddy or sell the odd turd I buy without checking preview/reviews on. If I can't do those things I'm a lot less likely to buy new titles, share with friends which grows awareness/opportunity and what people like me spend in a year probably dwarfs what he would several times over. I do agree with Krovven that the way they go about it is pretty shitty. Isn't it enough to be able to do it at all? Why spamvertise it in your signature and brag about it like a child? It's a consumer privilege that we enjoy, abusing it isn't good for anyone. Look at Gamestop, they pop up everywhere, treat their employees like crap and are just as bad as the publishers are about their profit margins.
This comment was edited on Apr 2, 2012, 15:59. |
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Playing: Faster Than Light, Tales of Graces F, Fire Emblem 3DS
Watching: Ghost in the Shell, Hannibal, Oblivion |
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| 13. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 15:18 |
avianflu |
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One could buy used cartridge games since the very first consoles and same goes for PC's software on disk starting in the early 1980's.
So why is it an industry-destroying issue suddenly *now*? It is a valid question. Sorry but it all sounds like PR spin to me.
And dont even get me going on the consumer rip-off that is DLC. It is only getting worse.
"Want to see the real ending of Fallout 3? Give me 10 more bucks."
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| 12. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 14:54 |
Krovven |
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Tumbler wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 14:24:
Your naive few of this situation is exactly what I expect developers/publishers see as well. I hope you understand that all these games I buy were purchased new. They're not bootlegged copies, they're not pirated copies. They're the games you sell. It's not me you need to worry about, it's the customers you seem to think so little of that will turn on you.
And you are ignorant enough to believe that whatever avenue you purchase/trade/rent your games from that the publisher or developer are seeing their share of that income.
If you rent a game, devs/pubs dont see a dime over the initial sale to the Rental company. If you trade a game its the same thing. Yes once upon a time it was sold as new. That is irrelevant as 20 people could rent that game, finish it, never look at it again. Only people that see that money is the rental company, not the devs/pubs.
Pubs generally pay devs a little money up front. Then their bonuses on that product and future work are based on the new sales of the games. Every time you rent/trade games it contributes to a darker future for games.
So don't be claiming people are naive about what Dev & Pubs see when you clearly don't know yourself and are only trying to justify dancing around paying as little as possible. This is your prerogative as it's your dime. But don't think for one second you are doing the industry, dev or pubs any favors doing it your way.
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| 11. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 14:24 |
Ferazel |
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Beamer: Not a populist opinion but I agree.
Gamers that buy used aren't supporting game developers they are supporting other gamers or GameStop. Gamers are not unique snowflakes. Gamers are consumers. Gamers consume products that game developers produce. A game developer's goal is to make enough money to make another game. If the developer doesn't receive money for their work, the industry fails. If this concept bothers you I think you're out of place in this market. |
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| 10. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 14:24 |
Tumbler |
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Games he plays: 5
Games he bought: 1
Money to developer: $60 (although more likely he bought it used, so money to developer = $0)
Not many developers sell directly to consumers. I did buy Legend of Grimlock from the developer, $12, looks fun. In most cases you're buying from the publisher and there is no guarantee that any money will go to the developer.
I got a used copy of Witcher 2 recently, retail, and I'm blown away by how much comes with the boxed release. I also got to download at least 2GB worth of updates. I haven't played the game yet but I do want to go buy it officially at some point. Maybe they'll put it on sale in a few weeks when the 360 version ships.
Your naive few of this situation is exactly what I expect developers/publishers see as well. I hope you understand that all these games I buy were purchased new. They're not bootlegged copies, they're not pirated copies. They're the games you sell. It's not me you need to worry about, it's the customers you seem to think so little of that will turn on you. |
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VGfive.com - Game Trading site (Steam codes too!)
Kickstarter "Game Developer"! |
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| 9. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 13:43 |
Beamer |
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CommunistHamster wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 13:34:
Beamer wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 12:55:
negative value customer Fuck you, industry apologist. The man buys videogames and plays them.
He doesn't buy them. He buys one, then he trades it for $1 for another, which he trades for $1 for another, which he trades for $1 for another.
Games he plays: 5
Games he bought: 1
Money to developer: $60 (although more likely he bought it used, so money to developer = $0)
It's hard for him to make an argument as if he's a customer of the industry when he isn't a customer of the industry. |
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| 8. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 13:34 |
CommunistHamster |
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Beamer wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 12:55:
negative value customer Fuck you, industry apologist. The man buys videogames and plays them. |
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| 7. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 12:55 |
Beamer |
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Tumbler wrote on Apr 2, 2012, 12:26:
Seems like it's time to start planning for a steam box. Only a fool would put up with MS and Sony's systems if they can only buy games from MS and Sony approved locations. Their prices are absolutely disgusting.
Sony and MS are going down if they do this. Short of game makers being forced into exclusive AAA games on the 360/PS3 I don't see how they are not going to lose A TON of gamers. I stick with 360 for most games because I know I can buy games safely and trade/sell them when I'm done or unhappy. You lock my games away from me like the pc does you better have a better plan in place to compete with the pc because right now you're a total joke when you compare them side by side.
For one, I don't know where you get "MS and Sony approved locations" from. Even if this locks out used games you can buy new games from anyone.
For another, Tumbler, you've proven over and over that you're a negative value customer. You don't buy new games - you buy used and you trade on Goozex. Gaming companies are losing money on you. The best value you add is discussing games and creating word of mouth, but you do that primarily for Goozex, not games. |
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| 6. |
Re: Morning Consolidation |
Apr 2, 2012, 12:26 |
Tumbler |
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Seems like it's time to start planning for a steam box. Only a fool would put up with MS and Sony's systems if they can only buy games from MS and Sony approved locations. Their prices are absolutely disgusting.
Sony and MS are going down if they do this. Short of game makers being forced into exclusive AAA games on the 360/PS3 I don't see how they are not going to lose A TON of gamers. I stick with 360 for most games because I know I can buy games safely and trade/sell them when I'm done or unhappy. You lock my games away from me like the pc does you better have a better plan in place to compete with the pc because right now you're a total joke when you compare them side by side. |
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VGfive.com - Game Trading site (Steam codes too!)
Kickstarter "Game Developer"! |
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45 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 2.
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