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DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches

Speaking with PC Gamer, DICE executive producer Patrick Bach expresses frustration that the console certification process is holding up the release of patches for the PC edition of Battlefield 3. He goes on to explain the problems that can be caused when they need to fix problems introduce by patches, but he doesn't seem to actually explain what is preventing them from releasing PC patches whenever they want, though he does say this can be considered a benefit "because you get proper testing."

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48. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 21:46 Closed Betas
 
Because console kids are crybabies?
 
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47. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 21:43 Closed Betas
 
why do you even listen to anything these people have to say anymore?
 
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46. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 21:41 Dev
 
Topevoli wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 10:38:
Didn't EA specifically say that Origin was "necessary" because it allowed DICE to have better control over the update process (as if it was an issue in the first place on Steam)?
HAHAHAHA I'd forgotten about that. Good one.
 
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45. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 20:23 Sepharo
 
tuddies wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 10:13:
on bluesnews, any positive comment is considered trolling! i don't buy many games, and don't play the ones that I have bought enough, but BF3 is one of those magnificent exceptions.

It was a little more than a positive comment... You called the game a superb bug-free masterpiece, that's either very naive or lying. I like the game too and have defended it in the past, I think it was pretty well done. Bug-free? Not even close.

So before reading your posting history you could see how I might think you were trying to "troll" people into arguing with you about it.
 
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44. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 17:43 Ant
 
Wait, are console and PCs playable crossplatforms for multiplayers? If not, then why wait for PC patches to be released? Stupid.  
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43. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 17:27 ASeven
 
Mordecai Walfish wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 16:45:
I would factor in the wildly successful sales of Skyrim, which occupied more than a couple months of the average player's gaming schedule at the end of last year/beginning of this year, in those reports of "ZOMG the industry is dying look at January's sales!".

Also.. can you think of *any* must-have title that came out in January? All I can remember that really caught my eye that month was "Abobo's Big Adventure", which was a friggin flash game, LOL.

And yet that January had more interesting releases than the one before, not to mention that people do buy games that were out months ago, not only games that are out in the same month. Hell, for the first time since CoD4 CoD sales dropped abruptly so soon after release and that happened January.

The reason is pretty simple, publishers are squeezing money from gamers as much as they can and doing shady practices, gamers get tired of that shit and flock to other platforms not so profitable or simply give up gaming and find an alternative source of entertainment.
 
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42. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 16:45 Mordecai Walfish
 
I would factor in the wildly successful sales of Skyrim, which occupied more than a couple months of the average player's gaming schedule at the end of last year/beginning of this year, in those reports of "ZOMG the industry is dying look at January's sales!".

Also.. can you think of *any* must-have title that came out in January? All I can remember that really caught my eye that month was "Abobo's Big Adventure", which was a friggin flash game, LOL.
 
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41. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 11:25 ASeven
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 11:08:
ASeven wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 10:00:
Quboid wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 09:54:
You have some nerve talking about strawman arguments. You implied that me saying publishers like money means that we should "reward devs and publishers who rip gamers off". Bullshit. Whereas, I said that project management is good, and considering it has led to "a booming industry that has shown ridiculous growth", your argument that it "drives gamers away" is more bullshit.

I'm all for Kickstarter and other indie development schemes but I am also all for sticking to reality.

Again, the industry is in a major decline since 2004. Again, reality shows indies are quickly becoming as major players in the industry as publishers. Again, making money is not the only factor since if you treat people like trash those people will flock to better alternatives, regardless of how well publishers make games or not.

You seem to forget the human factor in your market equation. It's that human factor that's fucking the industry completely because gamers will always find a better alternative when they feel being treated like shit. Basic economics in fact that applies to all kind of markets and industries. Treat people like shit, people will treat you with no sales.

How can you possibly say since 2004?

Sales went up significantly after that. It's a cycle. And yes, publishers are doing things poorly, but your expectations are so warped.

ASeven, I do not know what you do. I do not know what skills you have. But please, for the love of god, get a job in the industry for a while, or just take some vacation time and go to GDC and talk to some people next year.
Nothing is every as simple or as obvious as you make it.

Financial analyst, worked with the industry before so yes, I do know what I'm talking about regarding this.

And yes, 2004. Don't believe me? Perhaps you'll believe Gamasutra then?

As reported by the USA Today, Pachter said that January software sales have averaged $518 million between 2004 and 2011; with this year's January software sales reaching only $355.9 million, something doesn't add up.

"It also makes no sense that sales are below the level from 2004, when games were cheaper and the installed base of consoles was much lower. ... I don't know if the NPD is getting faulty data, but these numbers make no sense," he said.


You know it is bad when eternal industry shill Pachter starts to get really worried.

Still don't believe me? Have one more.

Look at the pretty graph!

I know what I talk about when it comes to finances and markets because that's my profession and area of expertise. You think I say there'll be a crash just because and without any solid data to back it up? You are very very wrong if you think like that.

Oh and that cycle bullshit is something the spinsters throw at this decline. A 30% decline is NOT a cycle, it's a sign of something far more serious. And yes, it's a 30% decline for the past months, more in fact. That is not a cycle no matter how you try to spin it.
 
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40. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 11:08 Beamer
 
ASeven wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 10:00:
Quboid wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 09:54:
You have some nerve talking about strawman arguments. You implied that me saying publishers like money means that we should "reward devs and publishers who rip gamers off". Bullshit. Whereas, I said that project management is good, and considering it has led to "a booming industry that has shown ridiculous growth", your argument that it "drives gamers away" is more bullshit.

I'm all for Kickstarter and other indie development schemes but I am also all for sticking to reality.

Again, the industry is in a major decline since 2004. Again, reality shows indies are quickly becoming as major players in the industry as publishers. Again, making money is not the only factor since if you treat people like trash those people will flock to better alternatives, regardless of how well publishers make games or not.

You seem to forget the human factor in your market equation. It's that human factor that's fucking the industry completely because gamers will always find a better alternative when they feel being treated like shit. Basic economics in fact that applies to all kind of markets and industries. Treat people like shit, people will treat you with no sales.

How can you possibly say since 2004?

Sales went up significantly after that. It's a cycle. And yes, publishers are doing things poorly, but your expectations are so warped.

ASeven, I do not know what you do. I do not know what skills you have. But please, for the love of god, get a job in the industry for a while, or just take some vacation time and go to GDC and talk to some people next year.
Nothing is every as simple or as obvious as you make it.
 
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39. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 11:02 Verno
 
Topevoli wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 10:38:
Didn't EA specifically say that Origin was "necessary" because it allowed DICE to have better control over the update process (as if it was an issue in the first place on Steam)?

Man, I wish I could find that quote!


P.S.- If your post starts with "I'm rambling/ranting now.." 99% of people will skip over it!

Yep that was one of the official lines. Honestly Origin isn't awful or anything. It's just shoehorned, mediocre and unnecessary right now. I have yet to see a decent Origin exclusive game implementation and the client itself is a barebones effort that is only slightly more feature complete than Impulse, let alone Steam. It's such a wasted opportunity, they could have had proper clan support for BF3 and decent metagame features like video recording.
 
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38. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 10:53 ASeven
 
Quboid wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 10:24:
What makes you think the industry has been in major decline? That can't be true. Quickly googled research says that it doubled between 2004 and 2009.

They are right but they are only taking into account revenue. They don't take into account the other important factor, costs. The costs of producing a game has grown sky high, past beyond revenues.

NPD numbers, which are rather reliable when it comes to the console retail market and only that also confirm a major drop in sales since 2008. Plus you always have the stock prices to see what investors think about a determine industry, there are few better data to paint a general picture of an industry through time.

EA stocks
THQ stocks
TakeTwo's stocks
Activision stocks

Activision is the only one doing relatively well, TakeTwo is also comfortable, but I have a theory that Acti is like cockroaches, not even a nuclear bomb would wipe them out.
 
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37. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 10:38 Topevoli
 
Didn't EA specifically say that Origin was "necessary" because it allowed DICE to have better control over the update process (as if it was an issue in the first place on Steam)?

Man, I wish I could find that quote!


P.S.- If your post starts with "I'm rambling/ranting now.." 99% of people will skip over it!
 
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36. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 10:24 Quboid
 
What makes you think the industry has been in major decline? That can't be true. Quickly googled research says that it doubled between 2004 and 2009.

My point is that whatever publishers do, they'll be purely motived by money and will only see us as wallets. The independent movement is a threat to them, and I'm all for that. But if they move to be more understanding and to treat people better, that's just to build up brand loyalty.

I don't blame them. Call of Battlefield: Medal of Awesome X making you more money than Avatar? Good for you. If I was making games, I'd rather make a fortune from shit than a pittance from gold. Then I'd retire and live in my mansion and write my own games on my own terms and live off the royalties from Duty of Medals: Bad Warfare. That's the dream.
 
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35. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 10:13 tuddies
 
on bluesnews, any positive comment is considered trolling! i don't buy many games, and don't play the ones that I have bought enough, but BF3 is one of those magnificent exceptions.  
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34. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 10:00 ASeven
 
Quboid wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 09:54:
You have some nerve talking about strawman arguments. You implied that me saying publishers like money means that we should "reward devs and publishers who rip gamers off". Bullshit. Whereas, I said that project management is good, and considering it has led to "a booming industry that has shown ridiculous growth", your argument that it "drives gamers away" is more bullshit.

I'm all for Kickstarter and other indie development schemes but I am also all for sticking to reality.

Again, the industry is in a major decline since 2004. Again, reality shows indies are quickly becoming as major players in the industry as publishers. Again, making money is not the only factor since if you treat people like trash those people will flock to better alternatives, regardless of how well publishers make games or not.

You seem to forget the human factor in your market equation. It's that human factor that's fucking the industry completely because gamers will always find a better alternative when they feel being treated like shit. Basic economics in fact that applies to all kind of markets and industries. Treat people like shit, people will treat you with no sales.
 
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33. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 09:59 Verno
 
Quboid wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 09:50:
I'm not saying they should expect sympathy, and they shouldn't expect understanding, but we should be understanding for our own sakes.

No, it is not reasonable to expect the consumer to be understanding when the industry rarely reciprocates without its hand being forced in the form of money.

Look at LA Noire - a successful game that killed the studio that made it, because they had interesting concepts and no project management.

There are many successful projects that fail to sell and many terrible products that manage to sell, singular examples don't really mean anything and that ignores all context. The truth often lies somewhere in the middle and many gamers ARE industry members which is something you've ignored. It's fine to criticize the industry and the consumers inability to create Call of Battlefield 4 doesn't negate that.

If you want to argue about the finer points with ASeven then go nuts, I'm not really interested. I'm just pointing out that playing the sympathy and "they know best" cards don't really fly.
 
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32. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 09:57 ASeven
 
Quboid wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 09:50:
DICE and EA are big players in a booming industry that has shown ridiculous growth - so in what way is a sign of their failure?

Until 2004, the decline since then has been exponential each year. The industry is at 2004 revenue levels today and going down.

Quboid wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 09:50:
The way gamers talk, you'd think we could all start development studios and our innovative gameplay, lack of DRM, our perfect stability and our great platform specific games would sent EA out of business. Kickstarter and suchlike show that there is a niche, but that's all it is.

Because there doesn't exist a huge indie scene that's becoming a major threat to publishers, right?

Gamers are tired of publisher's bullshit and defending the gaming industry is moot and pointless since nobody but the industry is to blame for all the shit happening to them and the major decline in revenues and sales. Saying the industry is good at making games is like saying Walmart is good at selling stuff to people. There are better alternatives out there than publishers, regardless of how well you perceive they make games, IMO they are mostly lousy at making games, and those alternatives are gaining a lot of weight for the past couple of years because gamers are tired of being treated like wallets only.

Knowing how to make games doesn't enter this because making games is as important as treating people with respect, namely the customers who buy those games.
 
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31. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 09:54 Quboid
 
You have some nerve talking about strawman arguments. You implied that me saying publishers like money means that we should "reward devs and publishers who rip gamers off". Bullshit. Whereas, I said that project management is good, and considering it has led to "a booming industry that has shown ridiculous growth", your argument that it "drives gamers away" is more bullshit.

I'm all for Kickstarter and other indie development schemes but I am also all for sticking to reality.
 
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- Quboid
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30. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 09:50 Quboid
 
I'm not saying they should expect sympathy, and they shouldn't expect understanding, but we should be understanding for our own sakes.

DICE and EA are big players in a booming industry that has shown ridiculous growth - so in what way is a sign of their failure? It's an enormously competitive industry and those who don't measure up get killed pretty fast but those who play their cards right do perfectly well. Look at LA Noire - a successful game that killed the studio that made it, because they had interesting concepts and no project management.

The way gamers talk, you'd think we could all start development studios and our innovative gameplay, lack of DRM, our perfect stability and our great platform specific games would sent EA out of business. Kickstarter and suchlike show that there is a niche, but that's all it is.
 
Avatar 10439
 
- Quboid
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29. Re: DICE: Console Certification Holds Up PC Patches Mar 28, 2012, 09:37 ASeven
 
Quboid wrote on Mar 28, 2012, 09:26:
I'm rambling/ranting now, but there are attitudes in the gaming community that constantly amaze me.

Developers want money. Publishers want money. Shareholders want money. Developers know about games. Publishers know about games. Shareholders at least research what they are buying. Developers, shareholders and in particular publishers know about project management.

Most gamers do not know about project management. When we complain about one or two platforms getting most attention, it's because they bring in the most money. What do you expect? If gamers were in charge of projects like BF3, it would have masses of content, no direction and never, ever get shipped.

Developers and publishers most certainly do not get it right all the time, but generally speaking, they know a hell of a lot better than us.

A good strawman. Project management knowledge means jackshit if in the end it drives gamers away with whatever plans they come with to monetize a game. In the end it all comes down to this:

Publishers and devs want money.
Gamers possess the money.
Gamers do not like being treated as personal wallets.
Gamers know best where to spend their own money at a given time.

Just because a publisher wants money, and it's its purpose after all, doesn't mean gamers know best about where to spend it. Hell, look at Kickstarter, which is a sign people are tired of the old business models of the industry and tired of middlemen like publishers who care about money and not the game.

And publishers do not know a hell of a lot better than gamers at making games that appeal to gamers. The number of blunders publishers have done in the past year is countless. Developers do know but it depends on where they are, indie or publisher-based, and hence how vulnerable to outside pressure to change the game they are.

Again like I've said it's capitalism. That doesn't mean publishers have the entitlement to view gamers as their personal wallets. In the end gamers decide where to spend their money, not the devs or publishers.
 
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