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Dragon Age II "Exalted March" Expansion Cancelled

BioWare's Mark Darrah tweets word that a Dragon Age II expansion called Exalted March was cancelled as part of the just announced transition the developers of the RPG sequel are making to the "next phase" of the series (thanks GameSpot). Word is:

We did have plans for an expansion pack to DA2 but, other DA opportunities came up. There were even shirts! It was called Exalted March.

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68 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
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68. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 21, 2012, 08:48 SXO
 
StrickNine wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 19:23:
according to wikipedia, Mr. Knowles left during the design process of DA2
Yea, according to what he said in his blog they had already started making plans for DA2 before Origins even launched. He stayed for a time after, and finally realized he had no interest in the direction the game was headed.

However, he never cited who's idea it was to change the gameplay style of DA2. Whether that decision came from within Bioware, or from higher up at EA is unknown, but it definitely didn't come from Knowles himself.
 
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67. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 21, 2012, 03:20 Jerykk
 
I think scaling health and damage is necessary in most cases. If you can kill enemies in a single hit, there really isn't much need for tactics or strategy. Tougher and more dangerous enemies force you to play better and smarter. The best difficulty modes change game mechanics in addition to health/damage scaling and DA2's nightmare difficulty does that. Unfortunately, the combat encounters weren't designed for it, turning stupid design decisions (like waves of enemies spawning out of thin air) into frustrating ones.  
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66. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 21, 2012, 03:12 hello newman
 
I think Doom 2 was the last game I played on a "nightmare" difficulty setting.

Mostly because "nightmare difficulty" currently translates into "enemies do more damage - you do half damage". Which I find lame.

I would rather see nightmare difficulty settings doing stuff like more spawns or better enemy aim or enemy uses more cover or enemy is well... "smarter" somehow not just doing 10x damage.

If I slash one rat with a waraxe I expect the rat to DIE on easy as well as on nightmare...
 
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65. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 21, 2012, 00:14 Jerykk
 
Yeah, on anything less than Nightmare difficulty, the wave-based combat encounters were likely more of an annoyance than anything else. However, on Nightmare, they were a serious issue that severely hurt the game.

It's pretty clear that the combat encounters were designed for the easier difficulties, where enemies are more cannon fodder than serious threats. The designers probably thought "This is too easy! Let's throw more enemies at the player when he least suspects it!" Unfortunately, Nightmare was the only difficulty that actually required tactics and micromanagement, so players who enjoyed those things in DAO were basically screwed in DA2.

It's strange that they overlooked this glaring issue because they clearly put some effort into the Nightmare difficulty. In addition to increasing enemy health and damage, they also increased player cooldown times, enabled friendly fire and made the player's mages and rogues get interrupted/staggered/knocked down by almost any kind of hit.

This comment was edited on Mar 21, 2012, 00:25.
 
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64. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 21, 2012, 00:07 Prez
 

I have to assume you guys didn't play DA2 on Nightmare difficulty

No, I didn't play on "Nightmare".
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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63. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 23:40 Jerykk
 
Prez wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:43:
There were lots of problems with DA2, spawning waves of enemies like they did could easily have been overlooked if the rest of the game was up to snuff.

Yeah, I can agree with that. The "rabbits on speed"-paced combat, the removal of customization, the removal of the tactical view, the embarrassingly recycled environments, the canned main character... these are far worse offenses.

I have to assume you guys didn't play DA2 on Nightmare difficulty. On Nightmare, a single assassin could kill your mages or rogues in single backstab. Having assassins or other elite-level enemies randomly spawn out of thin air could very easily screw you. As Verno said, you ended up saving all your good spells/abilities because if you used them on an early wave, you'd inevitably get screwed.
 
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62. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 19:23 StrickNine
 
according to wikipedia, Mr. Knowles left during the design process of DA2  
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61. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 18:38 NegaDeath
 
To be announced at E3:

Dragon Age 3!
"We've been listening to our fans feedback since the release of DA2, and by listening to their purchasing decisions we understand what they want. So we've switched to an all bow-and-arrow cover based approach. We've reduced skills to 4, removed the inventory and eliminated melee combat to reduce confusion. If there's one thing we here at Bioware are good at it's removing features."

"Also the main character is DLC. That'll be really fun but I don't want to spoil it too much at this early stage. We've got a really great trailer for E3....I guess that's the other thing we're good at."
 
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60. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 18:36 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 16:07:
RollinThundr wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:56:
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:35:
SXO wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:33:
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:06:
Yakubs wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:44:
Acleacius wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:32:
Probably too much to hope for but let's hope this means they are pulling their head out of their nether region.

I doubt there's anyone left at BioWare with any talent. Talent is not compatible with a marketing- and focus-group- driven approach.


Much of the DA2 team is from the DA team, right down to the lead designer.

I'll never get the blame on marketing here. These companies don't have enough marketing intelligence and skill to make calls like this. It's the developers and designers that are making these choices.
Same lead designer, eh? Sorry Charlie, but that's is just plain false. The lead designer for DA:O was Brent Knowles who was also lead designer for NWN, who decided to leave Bioware soon after DA launched because he didn't like the direction the company wanted to in with DA2. This is from his owns words mind you, he has a blog online you can read. Mike Laidlaw was the lead designer for DA2, and he's the one known for famously saying he didn't want to target RPG players exclusively, hence the changes in DA2.

I was on Brent's blog prior to posting this.
Mike Laidlaw is also listed as lead designer. There were 3. One now writes fiction. One made the most recent TRON game. And one made DA2.

3 lead designers. Brent was just 1.

And I'd say both Brent and Olhen had far more say than Laidlaw IRT Origins. The guy has pretty much come out and said repetedly he did things his way, to his likes in DA2 and doesn't plan to change that going forward.

You have any true evidence of that? All three were credited as "lead designer," and all three gave numerous solo interviews about the original.
Regardless, he was a lead designer of the original and he was lead designer of the sequel. He did not leave. He did not go anywhere. He knows what was well liked. He knows how decisions were made and he knows why they were made. And most of the team beneath him remained the same.

I've read his replies enough during DA2's development and post development to know. The guy is a douche.
 
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59. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 16:50 Prez
 
The biggest problem with the spawning for me was that it was so out of place as to be jarring and removed you from the experience. I don't expect "realism" in a game with magic and dragons but any time something inexplicably goofy happens it lessens the experience for me. It would be different if spawning baddies were part of the canon (like mages using teleport spells for instance) but it wasn't. I agree it was sloppy and lazy, like most everything else about the game, but for me it was only a small annoyance compared to the much more unforgivable affronts of DA2.  
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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58. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 16:23 Verno
 
descender wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:32:
I never understood this... at least it added SOMETHING random and unknown to the combat, rather than "sigh, another 3 guys to kill... click click click moving on". Having to make and change plans in the middle of combat was more tactful in DA2 than in DA:O because it was WAY easier to control the fights in DA:O.

I get what you're saying but it was just lazy design. There's nothing tactical to DA2 spawning methods, the randomness serves no practical purpose in advancing the combat, its strictly a design concession. In fact it tramples on combat pacing as players are always holding back abilities for fresh waves of spawns, particularly crowd control. It dilutes most other aspects of combat like using terrain/LOS, laying traps and etc.

DA:O used waves too but it did it in balanced encounters that were crafted by hand. It didn't just mindlessly spawn things at you to the point where you could literally predict the entire encounter.
 
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Playing: Dark Souls 2
Watching: Korengal, Legends, Intruders
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57. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 16:17 Dev
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:23:
Marketing has influence over what games get made but not over [i]how[/i] it gets made.
I disagree, and even if those particular positions you picked have nothing to do with it, I seriously doubt EA gives its teams complete creative freedom to do WTF ever they want with no input from the anyone above them (aka marketing or VPs). You wouldn't see all these DLC's if that were the case. Day one DLC are mostly a pure money grab. Especially the ones included with a new purchase, those are almost entirely to combat used game sales. I bet many devs would gladly integrate all the DLCs into the game as free content in the box. I bet many devs would gladly have less crazy DRM too.

Besides, I think you just aren't reading corporate double speek properly in those positions you mentioned. You know, the paradigm shifts into synergy type thing.
For instance, I've snipped a few bits that caught my eye on a quick skimming:
Work closely with a variety of teams (game, marketing, business development and the executives) to drive insights that improve gameplay experience and monetization
[...]
responsible for providing strategic, research-led insights that guide product and services strategy, planning, development and marketing for all EA Games
[...]
Collaborate with development teams to ensure alignment
[...]
Work with consumer research team to optimize product
To me, those bits all scream marketing influencing game development.

Now I don't know the exact corporate structure in EA. Its possible that the marketing reports to VP's and the VPs are the ones that shove the stuff down the dev teams throats. That doesn't change the point of many comments in this thread. Someone (or more likely some group of people) are making these kinda decisions at EA. Since bioware is not the only dev studio at EA to do the sorts of money grabbing changes that have been done, IMO it follows that someone above the dev studios is driving some of these changes. If it makes someone feel better to replace the term "marketing" in such posts with "VPs" or even "greedy VPs" then feel free.

This comment was edited on Mar 20, 2012, 17:29.
 
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56. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 16:07 Beamer
 
RollinThundr wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:56:
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:35:
SXO wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:33:
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:06:
Yakubs wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:44:
Acleacius wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:32:
Probably too much to hope for but let's hope this means they are pulling their head out of their nether region.

I doubt there's anyone left at BioWare with any talent. Talent is not compatible with a marketing- and focus-group- driven approach.

Much of the DA2 team is from the DA team, right down to the lead designer.

I'll never get the blame on marketing here. These companies don't have enough marketing intelligence and skill to make calls like this. It's the developers and designers that are making these choices.
Same lead designer, eh? Sorry Charlie, but that's is just plain false. The lead designer for DA:O was Brent Knowles who was also lead designer for NWN, who decided to leave Bioware soon after DA launched because he didn't like the direction the company wanted to in with DA2. This is from his owns words mind you, he has a blog online you can read. Mike Laidlaw was the lead designer for DA2, and he's the one known for famously saying he didn't want to target RPG players exclusively, hence the changes in DA2.

I was on Brent's blog prior to posting this.
Mike Laidlaw is also listed as lead designer. There were 3. One now writes fiction. One made the most recent TRON game. And one made DA2.

3 lead designers. Brent was just 1.

And I'd say both Brent and Olhen had far more say than Laidlaw IRT Origins. The guy has pretty much come out and said repetedly he did things his way, to his likes in DA2 and doesn't plan to change that going forward.

You have any true evidence of that? All three were credited as "lead designer," and all three gave numerous solo interviews about the original.
Regardless, he was a lead designer of the original and he was lead designer of the sequel. He did not leave. He did not go anywhere. He knows what was well liked. He knows how decisions were made and he knows why they were made. And most of the team beneath him remained the same.
 
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55. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 15:56 RollinThundr
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:35:
SXO wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:33:
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:06:
Yakubs wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:44:
Acleacius wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:32:
Probably too much to hope for but let's hope this means they are pulling their head out of their nether region.

I doubt there's anyone left at BioWare with any talent. Talent is not compatible with a marketing- and focus-group- driven approach.

Much of the DA2 team is from the DA team, right down to the lead designer.

I'll never get the blame on marketing here. These companies don't have enough marketing intelligence and skill to make calls like this. It's the developers and designers that are making these choices.
Same lead designer, eh? Sorry Charlie, but that's is just plain false. The lead designer for DA:O was Brent Knowles who was also lead designer for NWN, who decided to leave Bioware soon after DA launched because he didn't like the direction the company wanted to in with DA2. This is from his owns words mind you, he has a blog online you can read. Mike Laidlaw was the lead designer for DA2, and he's the one known for famously saying he didn't want to target RPG players exclusively, hence the changes in DA2.

I was on Brent's blog prior to posting this.
Mike Laidlaw is also listed as lead designer. There were 3. One now writes fiction. One made the most recent TRON game. And one made DA2.

3 lead designers. Brent was just 1.

And I'd say both Brent and Olhen had far more say than Laidlaw IRT Origins. The guy has pretty much come out and said repetedly he did things his way, to his likes in DA2 and doesn't plan to change that going forward.
 
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54. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 15:50 Slashman
 
descender wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:27:
ME2 was a joke, but everyone kept their bioware blinders on and refused to criticize it's ridiculously boring gameplay... then DA2 was terrible...

I didn't think ME2 was a joke or particularly boring. It may have been too streamlined in places, but I thought it was a decently fun game. I kind of looked at it as an interlude between the first ME game and the grand conclusion.

I figured they were just getting things setup for an unforgettable finish...oh well.

In any case, I thought ME 2 was leaning in the right direction with better combat and less ridiculous inventories full of junk. Even if it didn't advance the main plot much, I felt that was OK because we all knew there was going to be a final game where everything got squared away.
 
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53. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 15:35 Beamer
 
SXO wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 15:33:
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:06:
Yakubs wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:44:
Acleacius wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:32:
Probably too much to hope for but let's hope this means they are pulling their head out of their nether region.

I doubt there's anyone left at BioWare with any talent. Talent is not compatible with a marketing- and focus-group- driven approach.

Much of the DA2 team is from the DA team, right down to the lead designer.

I'll never get the blame on marketing here. These companies don't have enough marketing intelligence and skill to make calls like this. It's the developers and designers that are making these choices.
Same lead designer, eh? Sorry Charlie, but that's is just plain false. The lead designer for DA:O was Brent Knowles who was also lead designer for NWN, who decided to leave Bioware soon after DA launched because he didn't like the direction the company wanted to in with DA2. This is from his owns words mind you, he has a blog online you can read. Mike Laidlaw was the lead designer for DA2, and he's the one known for famously saying he didn't want to target RPG players exclusively, hence the changes in DA2.

I was on Brent's blog prior to posting this.
Mike Laidlaw is also listed as lead designer. There were 3. One now writes fiction. One made the most recent TRON game. And one made DA2.

3 lead designers. Brent was just 1.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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52. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 15:33 SXO
 
Beamer wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:06:
Yakubs wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:44:
Acleacius wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 11:32:
Probably too much to hope for but let's hope this means they are pulling their head out of their nether region.

I doubt there's anyone left at BioWare with any talent. Talent is not compatible with a marketing- and focus-group- driven approach.

Much of the DA2 team is from the DA team, right down to the lead designer.

I'll never get the blame on marketing here. These companies don't have enough marketing intelligence and skill to make calls like this. It's the developers and designers that are making these choices.
Same lead designer, eh? Sorry Charlie, but that's just plain false. The lead designer for DA:O was Brent Knowles who was also lead designer for NWN, who decided to leave Bioware soon after DA launched because he didn't like the direction the company wanted to go in with DA2. This is from his owns words mind you, he has a blog online you can read. Mike Laidlaw was the lead designer for DA2, and he's the one known for famously saying he didn't want to target RPG players exclusively, hence the changes in DA2.
 
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51. Re: Dragon Age II Mar 20, 2012, 15:23 Beamer
 
Dev wrote on Mar 20, 2012, 14:59:
So yeah, marketing and packaging and PR plays a huge role in companies like EA. Its not rare for publishers to ask for things to be changed or added based on what they think sells. Remember that wasteland 2 video about how the publishers are telling him to add twilight vampires to the game or they won't buy it? Yeah, that kinda thing goes on in real life, he wasn't just making that stuff up.

But EA marketing still isn't sophisticated to the point you guys are claiming. Marketing has influence over what games get made but not over [i]how[/i] it gets made.
What marketing typically finds itself doing is more working with advertising, creating promotion (videos, viral, etc.), working with vendors for outside promos (in store, exclusives, etc.), determining what the collector's edition will be, and such.

Marketing is not the driving force at any of these companies at this point. At a true marketing-driven company the marketers are responsible for nearly everything. They determine what the consumer wants and figure out if it can be provided. They tell engineering what to create (and, at the same time, engineering tells them what they've created otherwise and they determine if it's feasible/worthwhile to bring to consumers.)

Game companies have not hit this level of sophistication. Here's some of their bigger marketing job offerings:
Manager - Brand Experience

The Manager, Brand experience, working under the Sr. Manager, Customer Voice and Messaging, will be responsible for setting the strategy, tone, and brand presentation for EA Worldwide Customer Experience to both consumers and internal EA partners. This person will drive positive perception of the CE group, ensure understanding of our products and services, and act as a gatekeeper for all outgoing CE communications.

Responsibilities

Responsible for WWCE branding, tone, and voice, defining a messaging strategy that establishes CE's products and services as best-in-class support, anytime, anywhere.

Authors tone & voice guidelines as resources for support, social, and strategy teams.

Works with Program Managers to create the "X" for all new and existing CE products--a simple, brief overview of the program and it's value to our customers and internal partners.

Develops all internally and externally-facing presentations, including creation of executive decks, storyboarding and messaging strategy for video production, and other brand assets as needed.

Ensures that every experience with WWCE is delightful, and that all CE/customer touchpoints reflect EA's brand and mission

------------------
Sr. Marketing Analyst
Description: This person will own the strategic roadmap for the social and mobile division’s game analytics framework, reporting, and insights. They will be tasked with developing a scalable analytics framework, deploying actionable insights, and providing support to enable game teams to optimize our social & mobile games.

Primary Job Responsibilities
• Work closely with a variety of teams (game, marketing, business development and the executives) to drive insights that improve gameplay experience and monetization
• Produce ad hoc analysis as necessary that will include executive level presentations
• Build out reporting suites with engineers and publish best-in-class dashboards
• Oversee in-game telemetry SDK implementation, assure test setting quality and review for data accuracy
• Define and evaluate ROI of online/community marketing initiatives

------------------

Sr. Manager: Marketing Research
he EA Games Label Consumer Insights team is looking for an experienced market research professional. This group within the EA Games Label marketing organization is responsible for providing strategic, research-led insights that guide product and services strategy, planning, development and marketing for all EA Games offerings, current and future. Specific genres include racing/driving, first person shooter and action. Key titles and franchises include Battlefield, Crysis, Dead Space, Kingdoms Of Amalur: Reckoning, Medal Of Honor, Need For Speed, Overstrike, and Syndicate.

We are seeking a Senior Market Research Manager to join the team and focus on market research that informs our content and experience product and marketing roadmap.

Responsibilities:
- Develop research programs, plans and recommended budgets. Optimize the allocation of research budget and resources against most impactful programs and projects. Focus on developing research plans that address needs according to game development lifecycle and marketing cadence. Establish processes for capturing business needs and translating issues into researchable questions.
- Drive the design, execution and communication of primary and secondary market research. Develop best practices for research processes from identification through execution and delivery. Ensure that insights generated from research are effectively synthesized and communicated across the organization.
- Prioritize efforts across label product portfolio. Be able to assess potential impact of multiple projects to optimize focus and deliver the most meaningful results
- Partner with key constituents in Marketing, Studios and other support functions. Develop a deep understanding of the priorities and objectives of these teams. Be able to contextualize business problems and define means of educating these internal and external partners and infuse data into decision making.
- Provide recommendations and insights along with data and information.

------------------------

Senior Manager: Strategy & Analytics:
The role:

The Global Online Team is seeking a Sr. Manager of Strategy and Analytics, reporting to the Director of eCommerce Analytics, to lead multiple reporting and analytics projects that drive the core business metrics. The Sr.Manager will serve as a lead analyst for the business, providing critical insights to Directors and Managers of the NA, EU, and APAC businesses, to improve the consumer experience and the bottom line. The Sr. Manager will be heavily involved in both web analytics and financial data analysis, leveraging tools such as Omniture and Microstrategy to provide a consolidated view to marketing and site optimization teams. The Sr. Manager will also oversee the audit and validation of internal and external systems to ensure the right data is available and can be leveraged. This is a rare and exciting opportunity to be an instrumental figure within one of Electronic Arts’ fastest growing channels, Origin, its Direct-to-Consumer Online platform.

RESPONSIBILITIES
- Lead data intensive analytical projects, leveraging various web analytics, BI and financial tools to provide meaningful insights on performance, and recommendations for optimization
- Develop effective dashboards by gathering reporting requirements from business partners; Build in automation to minimize manual efforts
- Lead data modeling activities, applying forecasting techniques and methodologies during strategic planning process
- Provide key insights to optimize customer acquisition, site conversion, CRM, and retention
- Design and implement advanced statistical testing for custom problem solving, including methodologies such as A/B and multivariate testing
- Collaborate with Marketing and Site Optimization teams to measure and optimize conversion for email and 3rd party referral traffic, including funnel and click stream analysis.
- Lead data governance / audit projects through rigorous validation and enforcement of web analytics standards
- Supervise 1-3 data analysts, on-site and in remote locations, serving as a mentor, and facilitating skill-building through formal and informal learning opportunities

--------------
Global Brand Manager - Bioware
Key Responsibilities

• Creation of global marketing plan, including positioning, market analysis, and strategies
• Manage budgets and forecasts for North America
• Manage development of marketing programs, including mass market advertising, packaging, community, PR, and promotions
• Collaborate with development teams to ensure alignment between the product offering and optimization of marketing programs
• Coordinate across EA divisions to maximize integrated marketing opportunities
• Act as main marketing point of contact for all licensors on product ensuring strong synergy between the brands and compliance with all branding guidelines
• Collaborate with 1st party (Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo) to maximize co-marketing opportunities
• Work with consumer research team to optimize product and marketing efforts





None of these positions have any creative influence. They just gather and present data. To whom? To creative leads. Those leads are the ones making the decisions on the game. Marketing never says "hey, people love bunnies, include them in your next game." Developers say "hey, what would people like to see in my next game? Bunnies you say? Then we'll do it." That global brand manager for Bioware position is probably their #2 marketing tier. Notice that he has no influence in anything other than how to present the game being made. He has ZERO to do with the game being made, only how it goes out to the public.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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50. Re: Dragon Age II "Exalted March" Expansion Cancelled Mar 20, 2012, 15:07 panbient
 
The fact that Bioware felt the existence of shirts to promote this expansion was worth mentioning seems to underline a recent shift in priorities regarding their properties. Sad.  
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49. Re: Dragon Age II "Exalted March" Expansion Cancelled Mar 20, 2012, 14:59 Dev
 
If you do research, you'll find that some products are only designed AFTER the packaging is designed. In other words the packaging is designed first, then after that a product is made to fit that packaging.

Also, in double blind tests, things like packaging have a huge effect on how much people buy or like a product. Even things like what percentage of people feel they are allergic or the deodorant doesn't work for them are often dependent on packaging.

So yeah, marketing and packaging and PR plays a huge role in companies like EA. Its not rare for publishers to ask for things to be changed or added based on what they think sells. Remember that wasteland 2 video about how the publishers are telling him to add twilight vampires to the game or they won't buy it? Yeah, that kinda thing goes on in real life, he wasn't just making that stuff up.
 
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