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Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June

Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment and Wizards of the Coast announce a June 25th release date for the Menace of the Underdark expansion for Dungeons & Dragons Online, their free-to-play MMORPG. Word is: "Players across North America and Europe can pre-purchase Menace of the Underdark to receive exclusive benefits starting today at http://www.ddo.com/underdark." Bonuses include some creature companions to use right now, and more.

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17. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 19:05 Jivaro
 
I am not quoting all that...but..

1) I can understand that concept of either a game is F2P or it isn't. I don't agree that it is a problem, but I see the point.

2) "They are complaining about the fact that if someone doesn't pay, they are at a competitive disadvantage compared to those people who did pay." -Seriously? That is a complaint? You see..that makes complete sense to me.

3) I can't speak to PvP, never did that in LoTRO. As for the rest, I was speaking only in broad strokes, as it appears you are too. I fact I am not sure I see where we disagree there.

4) Hmm, the Age of Conan thing is a solid arguement. Having not ever been able to keep my interest past level 22 or so, and having not played the game since it went F2P, I do not have a frame of reference. Given what you stated, I would tend to agree.
 
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16. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 18:58 Bhruic
 
If you spend 15 bucks a month on a subscription to LoTRO you will be getting a whole lot more game for your money...and access to it...then you would if you spent 15 dollars worth of "Turbine points" over the course of a month without a subscription. That, in my mind, is the right way to go about a F2P model

And to my mind, that is exactly the wrong way to go about it. If you switch from a subscription-based model to a F2P model, people should be getting a better deal. Heck, from that perspective, LotRO isn't even a real F2P game, as it still has subscriptions.

Actually, I think that really sums up the problem, Turbine is trying to have their cake and eat it too with this system. They know that people who don't subscribe aren't getting as good a deal, so they are basically ripping off people who aren't subscribing, while at the same time encouraging people to subscribe as the "cheaper" alternative. That might make fiscal sense, but from a player perspective, it's a bad way to run a game.

When people complain about "Pay to Win", what they are really complaining about is non-subscribers paying the same or less per month as a subscriber and having better gear and faster access then that of a subscriber

No they aren't. They are complaining about the fact that if someone doesn't pay, they are at a competitive disadvantage compared to those people who did pay. In order to "win", you are virtually required to pay, otherwise your are hampered. This, of course, makes absolutely no sense in relation to non pvp environments, because there is no "win" condition in relation to other players. Which makes the whole concept pretty irrelevant to anything other than pvp in MMOs.

To my recollection, Turbine did not, and has not since.

And the above is the reason why. The pvp in LotRO is designed in such a way as to make gear pretty irrelevant, so there's no way to apply a "pay to win" concept. It literally has no meaning. But it also doesn't have any meaning in a lot of the cases where it's applied - because people have twisted the meaning from what I previously described to apply it to any situation where paying money gets you an advantage over those who didn't pay. There's no "win" condition, but that requirement has dropped off in favour of simple "advantage" vs "no advantage". From that perspecitve, obviously anyone who's spending money in LotRO (well, there are some frivilous items to spend money on, so not "anyone", but probably the majority) gets an advantage over those who don't. If you use the original definition, than there are very few games that actually qualify as "pay to win".

Most gamers should know by now that if you play your MMO of choice regularly, subscribing is going to be cheaper then nickel & dime'ing it

Except that it's not. There are MMOs out there where you can play the majority of the game without having to pay for any content, or grind your way to content. In Age of Conan, for example, you can play from level 1 to 80 (the level cap) without being restricted in content by lack of payment. Instead of restricting the base content, they restricted classes, number of characters, and end-game content. That's a much better way to handle it, imo.
 
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15. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 18:45 Jivaro
 
Bhruic wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 18:18:
My only point was that in a industry where "Pay-To-Win" is a better description of most "Free 2 Play" games, Turbine provides a very good alternative to those who prefer not to be locked into a subscription for something they might only play on and off.

The problem is that your premise is wrong.

No, it isn't. You are arguing a point that has nothing to do with my premise. Add to that, I don't even disagree with what you are saying with regards to "Pay-To-Decrease-The-Amount-Of-Time-You- Spend-In-Game-Before-Getting-Better-Stuff". Of course that is what is. I go back to my point before...which was Turbine's way of doing it. I recognize that you disagree, but consider the following.

If you spend 15 bucks a month on a subscription to LoTRO you will be getting a whole lot more game for your money...and access to it...then you would if you spent 15 dollars worth of "Turbine points" over the course of a month without a subscription. That, in my mind, is the right way to go about a F2P model. The subscribers should be rewarded for subscribing. If there is a bottom line point to what I originally stated, that is it. I understand that people might disagree if they are trying to view this from the non-subscriber point of view, however the customer simply can not have it both ways. Either the subscriber gets the better deal or the F2P player. I think it is pretty obvious who should get the better deal.

When people complain about "Pay to Win", what they are really complaining about is non-subscribers paying the same or less per month as a subscriber and having better gear and faster access then that of a subscriber. In truth, I usually only see this in newly released games or games that have only been F2P for a (relatively) short period of time and it is a result of poor marketplace balance. Most F2P games have some sort of imbalance at the beginning. To my recollection, Turbine did not, and has not since. Obviously this is where some people disagree with me, but again, I think this is because they are trying to view things from a non-subscriber point of view. And again...you can't have it both ways. The company has to make money or the game goes away, and if the subscriber doesn't get a better deal then the free player...then you really have trouble.

If people are going to be so obsessive as to riled up because the literal translation of a PR term is not completely accurate, that is their problem. (not saying you are, just saying) They knew before they even started playing what was really going on. F2P is not new anymore, every gamer knows it is just a different way to pay for the same thing. Most gamers should know by now that if you play your MMO of choice regularly, subscribing is going to be cheaper then nickel & dime'ing it. The F2P model is only customer friendly to those that rely on it because they don't like to play the same MMO month to month. Otherwise, the whole system is very much to the developers financial gain, which is obviously why it is becoming so popular amongst developers/publishers. This was the system that dieing MMOs used to prolong their agony. Now, in large part to Turbine's success, companies outside of Asia are turning to it from the beginning. Inside of Asia it was already building a head of steam.

This comment was edited on Feb 27, 2012, 18:59.
 
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14. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 18:39 Darks
 
Bhruic wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 18:08:
Then subscribe and quit yer bitching...

What a moronic response. The whole point was that someone claimed that Turbine did F2P "right". If your response to someone complaining they need to either pay for all the individual content, or spend shitloads of time grinding is "subscribe", then they pretty fucking obviously haven't done F2P right. From a consumer standpoint, that is, I'm sure from a "part fool from money" perspective they are doing awesome.

My exact thoughts too. And Iíll just add this. F2P is not free to play; itís more like Forced to pay.

Sorry, but I drew the line after being nickel and dimed and quit. Too many other games to play then being forced into this crap.
 
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13. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 18:18 Bhruic
 
My only point was that in a industry where "Pay-To-Win" is a better description of most "Free 2 Play" games, Turbine provides a very good alternative to those who prefer not to be locked into a subscription for something they might only play on and off.

The problem is that your premise is wrong. Most games are not "Pay-To-Win" - hell, by the standards people apply to F2P games, LotRO is most certainly a "Pay-To-Win" game, because if you want to get the best gear in the game, you can pay to get access to it much faster than the people who don't pay. Very few games are "Pay-To-Win". Most games are "Pay-To-Decrease-The-Amount-Of-Time-You- Spend-In-Game-Before-Getting-Better-Stuff". Obviously that hasn't caught on because of the title length.

Is LotRO a horrible example of F2P? Nope, but it's certainly not a shining one either. The majority of F2P games allow full access to the main game without grinding, and then charge for "extras". LotRO requires you to either grind, or pay just to play the "fundamental" parts of the game. A pretty poor way to do it, imo.
 
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12. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 18:08 Bhruic
 
Then subscribe and quit yer bitching...

What a moronic response. The whole point was that someone claimed that Turbine did F2P "right". If your response to someone complaining they need to either pay for all the individual content, or spend shitloads of time grinding is "subscribe", then they pretty fucking obviously haven't done F2P right. From a consumer standpoint, that is, I'm sure from a "part fool from money" perspective they are doing awesome.
 
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11. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 18:04 Boston
 
I don't find nickel-n-diming in LOTRO too offensive. I got good number of hours of enjoyment out of it and didn't pay a dime. If you have an alt, you accumulate enough Turbine points to be able to buy the quest packs and other perks you need without much grinding.  
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10. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 18:02 Jivaro
 
Asmo wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 17:51:
Then subscribe and quit yer bitching...

LOTRO's freeplay options allow you to earn the content by playing (aka grinding), but you can sub and everything is accessible + you get free turbine points. Or buy points. Plenty of options. The only arm twist is if you enjoy the game but aren't prepared to pay or grind, which means your shit outta luck.

Totally agree.

Gamers are cheap. We bitch if it has subscription. We bitch if its free. We bitch about everything in between. But seriously folks, some of you make me wonder if you would bitch about winning a tax-free lottery.

My only point was that in a industry where "Pay-To-Win" is a better description of most "Free 2 Play" games, Turbine provides a very good alternative to those who prefer not to be locked into a subscription for something they might only play on and off.

The developer does have to make some money off of this whole thing you know. Complaining because they provide different options on payment is just...well...it just doesn't make sense. It is as if some of you think that these companies just make the games, charge nothing, and get rich by watching everybody play their game.

Complain because the game play sucks. Complain because the graphics suck. Complain because the cookie cutter mainstream MMO formula is boring. Complain about any number of legitimate things...but complaining because payment is optional is just ridiculous.

This comment was edited on Feb 27, 2012, 18:08.
 
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9. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 17:51 Asmo
 
Darks wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 15:37:
I have to disagree with you totally on that point. If there is one company that is not doing F2P correctly it is Turbine. They charge you for each new area you can go quest in. I tried playing this game, but once youíre past the beginner area, they charge for any new questing area. That is utter crap. STO and DC Online do not do that to their customers.

They charge you for added content like expanding inventory or crew members. But they do not change you for each and every area that you try to venture into. That is what killed this game for me. I was not willing to buy each new area I wanted to do a quest in.

Yes you can earn points that can open those areas, but again I was not willing to grind out the same areas over and over just to earn those points. Sorry, but DDO is fail when it comes to being a true F2P online game.

Then subscribe and quit yer bitching...

LOTRO's freeplay options allow you to earn the content by playing (aka grinding), but you can sub and everything is accessible + you get free turbine points. Or buy points. Plenty of options. The only arm twist is if you enjoy the game but aren't prepared to pay or grind, which means your shit outta luck.
 
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8. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 17:30 JohnBirshire
 
Cry a little harder, please, I can't hear you over the clang of swords.

I think he kind of has a point. This game seems "cleverly disguised" as a free to play game. Any subscription based game can take away the monthly fee, then charge you for every single thing you do and call it free to play. I bet the average person who plays this the same amount of hours as the average subscription game actually ends up paying more money per month.
 
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7. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 16:41 Umbragen
 
Sorry, but I've been 'nickled and dimed' to death by Turbine, and considering that I've bought the game twice already, it's even more insulting.  
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6. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 16:30 Cutter
 
No, Turbine does it right.
 
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5. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 16:02 Zarkonis
 
Darks wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 15:37:
Jivaro wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 12:54:
sauron wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 11:24:
I can't even remember the last DDO expansion. I guess the game must be doing well for them to be doing this.

I saw that LOTRO also just expanded (Isengard) and is already planning another new one (Rohan).

Good for Turbine - fun and well-designed MMOs. Well deserved. My orcs love playing LOTRO in particular.


Yeah, I agree. If there is a company that is doing F2P correctly, it is Turbine.

I have to disagree with you totally on that point. If there is one company that is not doing F2P correctly it is Turbine. They charge you for each new area you can go quest in. I tried playing this game, but once youíre past the beginner area, they charge for any new questing area. That is utter crap. STO and DC Online do not do that to their customers.

They charge you for added content like expanding inventory or crew members. But they do not change you for each and every area that you try to venture into. That is what killed this game for me. I was not willing to buy each new area I wanted to do a quest in.

Yes you can earn points that can open those areas, but again I was not willing to grind out the same areas over and over just to earn those points. Sorry, but DDO is fail when it comes to being a true F2P online game.

Cry a little harder, please, I can't hear you over the clang of swords.
 
Slow and steady might not win the race at first, until you shoot everyone ahead of you.
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4. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 15:37 Darks
 
Jivaro wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 12:54:
sauron wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 11:24:
I can't even remember the last DDO expansion. I guess the game must be doing well for them to be doing this.

I saw that LOTRO also just expanded (Isengard) and is already planning another new one (Rohan).

Good for Turbine - fun and well-designed MMOs. Well deserved. My orcs love playing LOTRO in particular.


Yeah, I agree. If there is a company that is doing F2P correctly, it is Turbine.

I have to disagree with you totally on that point. If there is one company that is not doing F2P correctly it is Turbine. They charge you for each new area you can go quest in. I tried playing this game, but once youíre past the beginner area, they charge for any new questing area. That is utter crap. STO and DC Online do not do that to their customers.

They charge you for added content like expanding inventory or crew members. But they do not change you for each and every area that you try to venture into. That is what killed this game for me. I was not willing to buy each new area I wanted to do a quest in.

Yes you can earn points that can open those areas, but again I was not willing to grind out the same areas over and over just to earn those points. Sorry, but DDO is fail when it comes to being a true F2P online game.
 
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3. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 12:54 Jivaro
 
sauron wrote on Feb 27, 2012, 11:24:
I can't even remember the last DDO expansion. I guess the game must be doing well for them to be doing this.

I saw that LOTRO also just expanded (Isengard) and is already planning another new one (Rohan).

Good for Turbine - fun and well-designed MMOs. Well deserved. My orcs love playing LOTRO in particular.

Yeah, I agree. If there is a company that is doing F2P correctly, it is Turbine.
 
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2. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 11:55 Frijoles
 
Please keep giving them money so they can fund a proper AC2.  
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1. Re: Dungeons & Dragons Online Expansion in June Feb 27, 2012, 11:24 sauron
 
I can't even remember the last DDO expansion. I guess the game must be doing well for them to be doing this.

I saw that LOTRO also just expanded (Isengard) and is already planning another new one (Rohan).

Good for Turbine - fun and well-designed MMOs. Well deserved. My orcs love playing LOTRO in particular.
 
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