Send News. Want a reply? Read this. More in the FAQ.   News Forum - All Forums - Mobile - PDA - RSS Headlines  RSS Headlines   Twitter  Twitter
Customize
User Settings
Styles:
LAN Parties
Upcoming one-time events:

Regularly scheduled events

Skyrim Creation Kit & "Surprise" Tuesday

Bethesda's Pete Hines tweets that nod support for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim will be released on Tuesday., along with a "surprise." Word is: "For our Skyrim PC fans, the Creation Kit is on track for release on Tuesday. And, we also have a special surprise with it." Thanks Joystiq.

View
68 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 2 3 4 ] Older >

68. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 6, 2012, 15:02 ^Drag0n^
 
Jerykk wrote on Feb 5, 2012, 06:46:
I thought the perk system was clever, though: definitely more thought out than the last two Fallout titles; I liked how each perk had prerequisites.

The perks in New Vegas had prerequisites. I think the perks in Skyrim are fine too. It's just the UI used to view them that's horrible.

I, however, still take exception to your statement that the interface needs to be different between the PC and the 360; if you make it right, between the 4 triggers, d-pad, 2 thumbsticks, and A-B-X-Y, you have more than enough options to implement select/multi-select, page up/down, slider adjustment, and a few left over afterward.

With a mouse and keyboard, you can do things you just can't do with a gamepad. You can select things directly without needing to cycle or scroll. You can also drag and drop. And right-click. A keyboard also has significantly more keys than a gamepad has buttons, allowing for things like hotbars whereas console games rely on radial menus. The best PC UIs are the ones that take advantage of the features that can only be done with M/KB.

With the current state of Skyrim's UI, I agree with you completely.

As for what I'm describing, either I'm doing a horrible job of explaining how a UI can work easily under both modes of control, or we just have a fundamental disagreement over whether that is enough and/or possible, at which point I'd just say we'd have to agree to disagree.

I've seen some great examples of selection wheel UI in Games, CAD systems, and art software that are just amazingly efficient and would work cleanly with mice and game pads with little, if any, advantage/disadvantage to one method of input over the other. Some examples would be Pro/Engineer, Solidworks, and even Microsoft's own Office Tool Ribbon (admittedly, I used to hate it, but now I find it far more efficient than pull-downs, especially if you don't know or don't have a command shortcut).

Where both modes of control fall flat on their face, though, are in instances such as the one that frustrates you the most: the Alchemy segment of Skyrim.

IMO, I attribute that to a failure in game design as much (if not more) than to that of the UI...while it's a great idea, there are just, well, too MANY items in that alchemy database to deal with in a simple "list-based" format. Period. Even with a full assortment of sorting and filtering tools in SkyUI, it still becomes a chore to replenish your inventory with potions at an alchemy table. If I can't be in and out of a UI to select a new weapon, spell, shout, recipes, enchantment, or smithing option in well under 5-10 seconds per operation, I'm not liking the design. And Alchemy is just plain abysmal on all 3 platforms, with or without SkyUI or any of the other mods I've tried.

Anyway, Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

^D^

(edited for clarity & typo corrections after I having had my mid-morning coffee...)

This comment was edited on Feb 6, 2012, 23:31.
 
Avatar 55075
 
"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
67. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 15:17 Prez
 
I hate it when 2 people who both sound like they know what they are talking about disagree so vehemently while talking so far above me that I have no way of knowing who is right. As is usually the case in such instances, I suspect both are "right" from a certain standpoint, context, or point of view.  
Avatar 17185
 
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
66. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 13:57 Dades
 
Hopeless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qLFJuCCMpM
 
Avatar 54452
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
65. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 13:54 Dev
 
Dev wrote on Feb 5, 2012, 02:15:
I don't care, I just take exception to incorrect statements.
Dades wrote on Feb 5, 2012, 03:08:
Compiling a LAA executable is not labour intensive and testing was going on anyway. The community demand was there for it so they put a minor amount of resources into it. It likely didn't detract from anything else in a remotely measurable way and is a complete non-issue.
I didn't say the LAA change was resource intensive. However, a 64 bit exe would be more work than LAA.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
64. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 11:42 wtf_man
 
Jerykk wrote on Feb 5, 2012, 06:46:
^Drag0n^ wrote on Feb 5, 2012, 03:20:
I, however, still take exception to your statement that the interface needs to be different between the PC and the 360; if you make it right, between the 4 triggers, d-pad, 2 thumbsticks, and A-B-X-Y, you have more than enough options to implement select/multi-select, page up/down, slider adjustment, and a few left over afterward.
With a mouse and keyboard, you can do things you just can't do with a gamepad. You can select things directly without needing to cycle or scroll. You can also drag and drop. And right-click. A keyboard also has significantly more keys than a gamepad has buttons, allowing for things like hotbars whereas console games rely on radial menus. The best PC UIs are the ones that take advantage of the features that can only be done with M/KB.

Also, one forgets that a UI designed for a gamepad is blatently obvious to a PC gamer that uses a mouse and keyboard... which is why they "Bitch so much" about a "Consolized UI". Jerykk is right... the UI really needs to be different for the PC version.

This comment was edited on Feb 5, 2012, 11:48.
 
Avatar 19499
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
63. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 06:46 Jerykk
 
I thought the perk system was clever, though: definitely more thought out than the last two Fallout titles; I liked how each perk had prerequisites.

The perks in New Vegas had prerequisites. I think the perks in Skyrim are fine too. It's just the UI used to view them that's horrible.

I, however, still take exception to your statement that the interface needs to be different between the PC and the 360; if you make it right, between the 4 triggers, d-pad, 2 thumbsticks, and A-B-X-Y, you have more than enough options to implement select/multi-select, page up/down, slider adjustment, and a few left over afterward.

With a mouse and keyboard, you can do things you just can't do with a gamepad. You can select things directly without needing to cycle or scroll. You can also drag and drop. And right-click. A keyboard also has significantly more keys than a gamepad has buttons, allowing for things like hotbars whereas console games rely on radial menus. The best PC UIs are the ones that take advantage of the features that can only be done with M/KB.
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
62. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 03:32 ^Drag0n^
 
Dev wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 14:01:
^Drag0n^ wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 13:22:
By only allowing you to address your hardware with a 32-bit memory model, you can only address 4GB of ram. that's a huge limitation to the artists alone in terms of texture detail, size, and quality. It also limits how big your loaded portion of the world can be, etc.
Not quite. PAE can allow up to 64 gigs in 32 bit.

Anyway, 64 bit is not a magic silver bullet.

BTW, have you noticed a HUGE difference since the recent patch where beth enabled LAA? That went from 2gb to 4gb max memory usage by skyrim. As I recall, it mostly made a difference for people running memory intensive mods.

My bad, Dev: I was more referring to the 32hbit OS limit, as opposed to PAE. I get that 32bit is needed to support Atom, but what a boat anchor.

I can't really comment on LAA, as I upgraded my video card and cpu at the time 1.3 came out, which probably did far more for performance than the code change did.

^D^
 
Avatar 55075
 
"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
61. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 03:20 ^Drag0n^
 
Jerykk wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 19:41:
All the platforms would have benefited from someone devoted to UI design and management; as, if done properly, the UI wouldn't care if you used a mouse or gamepad. teams I've managed and worked with in the past approached it this way, with reasonable degrees of success.

They did have a UI designer and programmer. All games do. However, they decided to design the UI for gamepads and focused on style over efficiency.

You can't design a UI that's optimized for both gamepad and M/KB because the two control schemes are so vastly different. It really is necessary to redesign the UI for PC ports, as Bioware has done with their games. It won't create support/debugging nightmare because even if the UI was exactly the same as the console version, it would still need to receive an equal amount of testing and debugging on the PC.

I'm know we've gone back and forth on this one a bit in a previous thread, but I honestly enjoy the debate. Here's my thoughts:

The UI programmer was a tongue-in-cheek jab. As you pointed out in our previous discussion, the interface on inventory management is, at best, the result of a bare minimum effort. And while I think it was smart of them to not introduce radically different UIs between the ports (a plus for the 360 & PC, as they share a lot of code) , I wholeheartedly agree that the interface it has, well, sucks for inventory management. I thought the perk system was clever, though: definitely more thought out than the last two Fallout titles; I liked how each perk had prerequisites.

I, however, still take exception to your statement that the interface needs to be different between the PC and the 360; if you make it right, between the 4 triggers, d-pad, 2 thumbsticks, and A-B-X-Y, you have more than enough options to implement select/multi-select, page up/down, slider adjustment, and a few left over afterward. The real issue is that a lot of game UI is just plain horrible to begin with. One that was done properly wouldn't care, nor would it be more confusing, on one platform vs another. Case in point: I could totally see SkyUI working with a 360 controller, only difference being that the mouse would be replaced with hilighting, and you'd change categories/columns with the d-pad or one of the thumbsticks, and the various triggers to toggle the different select/unselect/drop/move options.

^D^
 
Avatar 55075
 
"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
60. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 03:08 Dades
 

You can't design a UI that's optimized for both gamepad and M/KB because the two control schemes are so vastly different.

Yup, more companies need to realize this and allocate more time to PC user interface development.

I don't care, I just take exception to incorrect statements

Compiling a LAA executable is not labour intensive and testing was going on anyway. The community demand was there for it so they put a minor amount of resources into it. It likely didn't detract from anything else in a remotely measurable way and is a complete non-issue.

This comment was edited on Feb 5, 2012, 03:14.
 
Avatar 54452
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
59. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 02:15 Dev
 
Dades wrote on Feb 5, 2012, 00:39:
Thats in an ideal world, and assumes they don't bother to test it.

This is gamebyro engine we are talking, which is very far from an ideal world.

That doesn't make any sense at all, they can pool that testing in with the other QA they are doing on the series of patches the game has already seen and will continue to receive. It doesn't take content developers to work on that anyway, it's a moot point. No idea why you would even care, they already shipped a LAA executable and Windows XP is on its way out.
And testing takes resources.

I don't care, I just take exception to incorrect statements.

BTW, I know about the LAA thing, I even already mentioned it in this thread.

This comment was edited on Feb 5, 2012, 02:42.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
58. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 5, 2012, 00:39 Dades
 
Thats in an ideal world, and assumes they don't bother to test it.

This is gamebyro engine we are talking, which is very far from an ideal world.

That doesn't make any sense at all, they can pool that testing in with the other QA they are doing on the series of patches the game has already seen and will continue to receive. It doesn't take content developers to work on that anyway, it's a moot point. No idea why you would even care, they already shipped a LAA executable and Windows XP is on its way out.
 
Avatar 54452
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
57. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 21:39 Dev
 
Dades wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 18:37:
They don't need to devote any resources to a 64bit executable, it is a simple matter to accomplish and doesn't stop them from patching the game or improving other features.
Thats in an ideal world, and assumes they don't bother to test it.

This is gamebyro engine we are talking, which is very far from an ideal world.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
56. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 20:58 wtf_man
 
Double post, sorry. My Internet connection is having issues today.

This comment was edited on Feb 4, 2012, 21:05.
 
Avatar 19499
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
55. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 20:57 wtf_man
 
Jerykk wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 19:41:
You can't design a UI that's optimized for both gamepad and M/KB because the two control schemes are so vastly different. It really is necessary to redesign the UI for PC ports, as Bioware has done with their games. It won't create support/debugging nightmare because even if the UI was exactly the same as the console version, it would still need to receive an equal amount of testing and debugging on the PC.

Clap
 
Avatar 19499
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
54. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 19:41 Jerykk
 
All the platforms would have benefited from someone devoted to UI design and management; as, if done properly, the UI wouldn't care if you used a mouse or gamepad. teams I've managed and worked with in the past approached it this way, with reasonable degrees of success.

They did have a UI designer and programmer. All games do. However, they decided to design the UI for gamepads and focused on style over efficiency.

You can't design a UI that's optimized for both gamepad and M/KB because the two control schemes are so vastly different. It really is necessary to redesign the UI for PC ports, as Bioware has done with their games. It won't create support/debugging nightmare because even if the UI was exactly the same as the console version, it would still need to receive an equal amount of testing and debugging on the PC.
 
Avatar 20715
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
53. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 18:37 Dades
 
Dev wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 17:34:
Again, not quite. Windows XP (and others) you could enable it as a boot option (such as in boot.ini). Vista and 7 have it enforced disabled for licensing reasons (although I've heard there's a kernel patch to bypass it).

Not that it matters much, since I doubt anyone will be doing that to run skyrim, but the point is the 4gb thing isn't written in stone.

There's far more beneficial things beth can spend their time on to improve and patch the game though than focus on a 64 bit exe.

None of that really matters though because Windows XP is the past, plain and simple. They don't need to devote any resources to a 64bit executable, it is a simple matter to accomplish and doesn't stop them from patching the game or improving other features.

This comment was edited on Feb 4, 2012, 18:47.
 
Avatar 54452
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
52. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 18:13 Crustacean Soup
 
Dev wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 17:34:
Crustacean Soup wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 15:25:
Dev wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 14:01:
Not quite. PAE can allow up to 64 gigs in 32 bit.
Not on Windows it can't, though. They don't enable PAE unless you have a server version.
Again, not quite. Windows XP (and others) you could enable it as a boot option (such as in boot.ini). Vista and 7 have it enforced disabled for licensing reasons (although I've heard there's a kernel patch to bypass it).
Okay, they let you use PAE in XP, but it's still restricted to 4 GB addressable RAM maximum on non-server editions. It's not set in stone, but it is artificially restricted by Microsoft.

But yeah, it's still not a limiting restriction right now. On a 64-bit system, a LAA 32-bit executable can address up to 4 GB of virtual memory, and I don't know of any games that go that far. As far as memory goes, they only have to move to 64-bit when that starts becoming restrictive.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
51. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 17:34 Dev
 
Crustacean Soup wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 15:25:
Dev wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 14:01:
Not quite. PAE can allow up to 64 gigs in 32 bit.
Not on Windows it can't, though. They don't enable PAE unless you have a server version.
Again, not quite. Windows XP (and others) you could enable it as a boot option (such as in boot.ini). Vista and 7 have it enforced disabled for licensing reasons (although I've heard there's a kernel patch to bypass it).

Not that it matters much, since I doubt anyone will be doing that to run skyrim, but the point is the 4gb thing isn't written in stone.

There's far more beneficial things beth can spend their time on to improve and patch the game though than focus on a 64 bit exe.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
50. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 17:23 shinchan0s
 
Only mods I want are a first person body mod (there's already a buggy mod for it) and a hunger/sleep mod.  
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
49. Re: Skyrim Creation Kit & Feb 4, 2012, 15:25 Crustacean Soup
 
Dev wrote on Feb 4, 2012, 14:01:
Not quite. PAE can allow up to 64 gigs in 32 bit.
Not on Windows it can't, though. They don't enable PAE unless you have a server version.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
68 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 2 3 4 ] Older >


footer

Blue's News logo