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Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM

"No one should have to purchase a product that theyíre unable to install because of the DRM. There might be other reasons, like the compatibility isnít correct, or whatever. But people who purchase a game should have just as easy a time as those who pirate the game, otherwise itís a negative incentive to buy a legal copy. And I just canít see why people are using DRM still. If you take something like Sonyís DRM, SecuROM -- itís a waste of money," says Paradox CEO Fred Wester. "It will keep you protected for three days, it will create a lot of technical support, and it will not increase sales. And I know this for a fact, because we tried it eight years ago, and it never worked for us. Two major reasons: it costs money and it makes you lose money, and the other is that itís so inconvenient to customers."

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45. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 26, 2012, 09:41 Beamer
 
baltar wrote on Jan 26, 2012, 08:15:
Or they could just throw out the entire system all together, especially since in the 90's they were selling games outside the country and still making money without harassing the people that bought the game. They really aren't preventing anyone from buying an import copy, they are just screwing them over after those customers gave them money.

In the 90s it was much harder to game this system, as shipping costs were much higher, shipping times were much longer, and you couldn't just buy a code at one price in one region then mark it up $5 and sell it via the internet.


This isn't hard. You're the only person in this thread with an issue here. If you're in Russia for a month? Don't buy a game! Or buy it over Steam for your region. Don't make the entire country suffer because you desperately need to play Doom 4.
 
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44. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 26, 2012, 08:15 baltar
 
SimplyMonk wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 16:35:
baltar wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 16:11:
Yes there's a few of us collectors out there that's willing to do this.

Oh. Well, in that case the answer is even simpler. The system you are asking for would take a good deal of engineering and be extremely complicated requiring regional distributors to be constantly in contact with one another so that they could determine when a game drops in price in one region that the game is no longer active in another region.

It is easier to just lock media to a single region than trying to build an ever changing system that determines whether or not you are able to activate a game in your region based on the current price of the title in the "purchased region" and the current price of the title in the "activation region".

Example
You bought it in Russia last month for $70, but didn't activate till a month later, at which point the Russian price dropped to $20 so you are no longer to activate your $70 version.

A silly and complicated system built for an edge case. Not going to ever be done.

We make DRM like Starforce that roots your computer, takes it over and prevent piracy. We have games like TOR/WOW that you use an account you made to sign in, with a securid key, and connect to a server to play a character saved on that server, and all this while managing an automatic $15 fee on your cc? We even made up DRM that authenticates and yet fools idiots into thinking it's a great thing because we added in social features to it. Hell we got processors with millions, if not billions, of transistors that can do insanely complex math in our own homes, and your'e telling me they cant figure out how to properly charge people based on where they bought it vs where they're playing it? Seriously?

BTW to counter your last example where the Russian price dropped to $20, a month later they should've turned off the region controls since the chance to make money ended on that game the week it came out. That's what they did with LOTR war in the north - kept region protection on for the first week of purchase, then turned it off afterwards. It's really that simple.

Or they could just throw out the entire system all together, especially since in the 90's they were selling games outside the country and still making money without harassing the people that bought the game. They really aren't preventing anyone from buying an import copy, they are just screwing them over after those customers gave them money.
 
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43. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 26, 2012, 08:06 Wolfox
 
baltar wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 14:43:
First, The box has Paradox's logo on it, and I see it before I see the title when I launch the game. If this was being argued in a court of law, they would say "any reasonable person would assume Paradox had their hands in it." Regardless of the internal politics inside the company as to who's running what.

It's obvious that you have no idea of how things work when it comes to development and publishing. Contracts between publishers and developers vary wildly, and sometimes developers have more power than the publisher on a given title (and even the IP). Sometimes it's the developer's call (not the publisher's) to add some sort of DRM to their product. That's how things go, as anyone with a minimal knowledge of how the market works would tell you.

baltar wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 14:43:
Secondly, If I was CEO of that company, I would say "DRM free or GTFO." none of this stupidity where they dev a game and some other publisher dictates a DRM on it especially when Paradox is easily capable of self publishing their own developed games.

Well, you're not the CEO of that company (thankfully). And you got it backwards - all titles with DRM on that short list of mine were PUBLISHED by Paradox (not developed), and the DEVELOPER dictated DRM, not the publisher (Paradox). You really don't get the whole "fact checking" thing, do you?

baltar wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 14:43:
Third, and this goes for everyone on the thread, these companies pull garbage such as run a bunch of their businesses overseas, hire developers in India, take advantage of tax laws outside of the USA. They are using globalization to their maximum effect, and yet they would put in artificial barriers to block customers that try to import their games so the rest of us can't do it? Does that sound right?

Paradox does not run a bunch of their business overseas, even if they signed developers from the USA, Sweden, Russia and Brazil. They don't take advantage of tax laws outside of the USA more than any other legitimate company (and, for the record, the laws of the USA mean little to them, since they're on Sweden - and I guess publishing a US developer like Kerberos Studios would count as "overseas"?). They are not exploiting their developers (as any of the developer studios will be glad to tell you) or their users. As for the "artificial barriers" you mention, it's the way the industry works today. It's something difficult to change, unless MANY publishers are willing to do so. So take that into account.
 
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42. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 21:52 hoolaparara
 
As the CEO of a major multi-national, we have spent a fortune bribing convincing politicians the world over to pass free trade agreements so we can move out manufacturing to countries with the the most child lab lowest manufacturing costs and outsourcing our IT/call centres to the lowest quote.

If you allow the consumer to outsource their purchasing you undermine the whole capitalist system! We did not get all this legislation passed to save them money! Think of what this would do to our profits and my bonuses! Won't somebody please think of the CEOs!

Personally I blame the education system. If they didn't keep educating the consumer, they would not know Russia exists and be thinking about buying genuine goods at cheaper prices there or anywhere else!

A Stere O'type
CEO iMegaCorp eCorp Pty Ltd Inc

 
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41. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 20:52 ^Drag0n^
 
Just going on record that Fred has the right idea all the way around on DRM. It's too bad that the big houses still refuse to understand not what they lose to piracy, but what the true cost are of protecting IP at a draconian level is. So many people I know have not touched any EA and UBI pc titles this year on the PC that used to simply due to the problems, real or perceived, that those respective company's DRM packages throw at the end user.

I don't believe in not paying for a game, but I sure as hell don't believe in draconian DRM either.

^D^

(Edited to correct grammar)
This comment was edited on Jan 26, 2012, 11:50.
 
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40. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 19:37 Orogogus
 
Creston wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 14:13:
Orogogus wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 12:44:
And on the other hand you have horrific markups for the EU and Australia for I don't even know what reason.

Just greed, buddy. It's nothing more than that. Plain, unadulterated greed.

Creston

It just seems strange that 1) no one's really tried to undercut the competition and clean up, 2) everyone in those regions apparently deals with it, and 3) they haven't been able to get away with it in the US.

Presumably the companies want to make as much money as possible, and they've determined that the sweet spot for selling games in AU/NZ is $90 and that they wouldn't be able to make even more money by selling to more people at a lower price. The only thing that makes sense is if gaming were an utterly niche hobby in those territories, and the only consumers are a select group of hobbyists who will buy almost anything that comes out, even at a steep markup, but it really doesn't seem that's the case.
 
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39. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 18:47 ventry
 
Orogogus wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 12:44:

And on the other hand you have horrific markups for the EU and Australia for I don't even know what reason.

Your kidding right?

GREED.

For decades greedy media corporations have been raping the consumer.
However NOW the consumer has more power and choice.
Even if that choice is piracy the consequences to the individual is almost non existent.
Now the greedy media corporations are having a "throw yourself on the floor, kicking and screaming" tantrum because the power balance is shifting in the direction of the consumer not the greedy corporation.
They want you "consuming" not "sharing".
That is why you have COICA, SOPA, PIPA and whatever they called that video tape one.
I for one hope I live long enough to see Wall Street BURN.
It will happen. It's only a matter of time.
I hope when the dust settles they build something that works better for ALL people not just the privileged few.
 
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38. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 16:56 Orogogus
 
Bhruic wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 16:20:

It doesn't matter. Without region locking, those products wouldn't be sold in those regions

Totally missing the point. I'm not arguing about what is happening (or would happen), I'm arguing about what should happen. Why should people who happen to be making $10K in a "poor region" be able to buy a game for substantially less than someone making $10K in a "rich region"?

Kind of an inane question. Should these people be arrested for buying goods? The question is, why shouldn't a company be allowed to set their prices in this fashion? Because first world message boarders are going to whine? Or are governments supposed to be stepping in and mandating what prices goods must be sold at? Setting regional prices obviously gives a company more flexibility to meet local demands, and is generally in the interest of both sides in poor markets.
 
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37. Re: Skyrim Versus ThreatFire Jan 25, 2012, 16:51 yonder
 
baltar wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 14:43:
Wolfox wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 11:49:
baltar wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 11:02:
He's talking about how they never use DRM in the link and yet all their games have Steam DRM on it with region blocking. I call foul.

You should check your facts before crying foul.

All the games developed in-house (Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron, Victoria, EU: Rome, Sengoku, etc) have been DRM-free since, well, ever. If they're sold on Steam, of course they'll use Steam - but if you buy it on retail or on Gamersgate, they have no DRM at all.

Most of the games published (but not developed) by Paradox were also released DRM-free. The AGEOD games have no DRM, Achtung Panzer had no DRM, and neither did Cities in Motion, Elven Legacy, Fort Zombie, Sword of the Stars, King Arthur, etc, etc, etc.

Now, some of their third-party (published) games do have DRM. Sword of the Stars 2, Magicka and Lead & Gold are Steam only (though the former seems to have no DRM, just using Steam as a distribution platform), the Mount & Blade series uses the developer DRM, Majesty 2 and East India Company used Impulse Goo. But that's pretty much it. I can't think of any other Paradox title that uses DRM in any form. Can you?

So, when you compare the list of DRM-free titles with that of DRM titles, what do you see? You see that Paradox doesn't use DRM, except when the developers require it. That's it.

So please, next time, check your facts.

Still calling foul.

First, The box has Paradox's logo on it, and I see it before I see the title when I launch the game. If this was being argued in a court of law, they would say "any reasonable person would assume Paradox had their hands in it." Regardless of the internal politics inside the company as to who's running what.

Secondly, If I was CEO of that company, I would say "DRM free or GTFO." none of this stupidity where they dev a game and some other publisher dictates a DRM on it especially when Paradox is easily capable of self publishing their own developed games.

Third, and this goes for everyone on the thread, these companies pull garbage such as run a bunch of their businesses overseas, hire developers in India, take advantage of tax laws outside of the USA. They are using globalization to their maximum effect, and yet they would put in artificial barriers to block customers that try to import their games so the rest of us can't do it? Does that sound right?

To be somewhat fair, I can understand them trying to block someone from the USA trying to buy the Russian version of said game for $10 instead of paying $50. What I don't understand is why block it for someone going to a more expensive country to buy the same game? Magicka sells for $10 ever since it was released in the USA. I bought it from the EU for $15 when I was there because I really REALLY hate DL games and the USA has it DL only.


*SOMEONE* not only doesn't have a clue how things work, but also doesn't understand Paradox's size. Did you *REALLY* list their logo as a reason that they should account for 100% of all DRM-related issues even when they're not the ones making the decision. I mean wow...
 
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36. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 16:41 SimplyMonk
 
Bhruic wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 16:20:
Totally missing the point. I'm not arguing about what is happening (or would happen), I'm arguing about what should happen. Why should people who happen to be making $10K in a "poor region" be able to buy a game for substantially less than someone making $10K in a "rich region"?

Because those sales aren't the ones driving the development of the game. They are little bonus sales that the publisher gets for the cost of localizing the game to that region and selling boxes to a distributor.

The publisher has a choice. He either makes a little extra money by localizing and region locking a title to sell it to a poor region or he doesn't sell it in that region because it will drive down sales in the region that is their bread and butter.

At that point no region locking is costing the publisher money because he couldn't sell at a price that would pay costs and be viable in all regions. It costs money to localize and distribute a title (digital may change some of this) in a specific region. If doing so offsets your profits in other regions, it doesn't make good business.
 
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35. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 16:36 Ruffiana
 
Verno wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 11:07:
Most people are ok with Steam to the point where they don't consider it DRM since they are rarely inconvenienced by it. It's not correct but it just goes to show the power of making meaningful trade offs with the consumer instead of having a fuck you all, take what we give you attitude.

I've felt more inconvenienced by Steam than any other form of DRM. Which isn't saying much, because I don't find Steam to be much of an inconvenience either.

Once again, someonw panders to the anti-DRM crowd, gets a bunch of praise, and really accomplishes nothing. People don't buy a game because it's DRM-free, they buy a game largely because of marketting, hype, and review scores. Some claim they don't buy games with DRM, fewer actually follow that practice, but overall it's about as significant as a fart in a hurricane.

Which is about how effective most DRM is these days as well.
 
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34. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 16:35 SimplyMonk
 
baltar wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 16:11:
Yes there's a few of us collectors out there that's willing to do this.

Oh. Well, in that case the answer is even simpler. The system you are asking for would take a good deal of engineering and be extremely complicated requiring regional distributors to be constantly in contact with one another so that they could determine when a game drops in price in one region that the game is no longer active in another region.

It is easier to just lock media to a single region than trying to build an ever changing system that determines whether or not you are able to activate a game in your region based on the current price of the title in the "purchased region" and the current price of the title in the "activation region".

Example
You bought it in Russia last month for $70, but didn't activate till a month later, at which point the Russian price dropped to $20 so you are no longer to activate your $70 version.

A silly and complicated system built for an edge case. Not going to ever be done.
 
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33. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 16:20 Bhruic
 

It doesn't matter. Without region locking, those products wouldn't be sold in those regions

Totally missing the point. I'm not arguing about what is happening (or would happen), I'm arguing about what should happen. Why should people who happen to be making $10K in a "poor region" be able to buy a game for substantially less than someone making $10K in a "rich region"?


"Me me me me me me me me me me me me."

Ah, yes, you've taken dodging the question to new heights. Of course, such stupidity is your stock-in-trade.
 
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32. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 16:11 baltar
 
SimplyMonk wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 15:42:
It doesn't matter. Without region locking, those products wouldn't be sold in those regions. It's not like the publishers would be willing to drop their worldwide MSRP by $50 just so they can sell a game in the Philippines for $10. Getting rid of region locking 100% screws poor regions and gains you squat. You wouldn't be able to buy the game in a cheaper region because the publisher wouldn't sell it there.

Then they need to manage the shity DRM better so they don't hurt customers that are willing to pay more than retail cost for the game!

1. There's no reason to put region locking on us/uk versions of the game at all as those regions are the most expensive. If someone from Russia wants to buy the UK version for $50 more than what's in Russia, then he should fuckin be able to.

2. If they want to dick the Asian/Russian market with that DRM, then make it so if someone actually does buy that version and gets screwed with it, then give them their money back or give them a option to be able to get the correct edition. At least paradox gave me that option which I am happy for, rather than pull the typical Bobby Cocktick "I got your money fuck you" response.

It's perfectly legitimate, and should be allowed, if someone in the USA visits Russia, walks into a shop and sees Stalker Clear Sky Russian CE (yes the one that has the lighter and the swag in it) and buys it for $80. They should be able to play it back in the USA.
It is also legitimate and should be allowed for someone to go to the UK, or go to game.co.uk, buy that awesome deus ex HR CE that's only available to the UK, and take it to the USA and be able to play it.
(I know deus ex CE doesn't have it, thanks to outcry from the deus ex community, but im just proving a point here.)


Don't hurt customers who are willing to pay you above the market price for your game idiots! Yes there's a few of us collectors out there that's willing to do this.
 
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31. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 15:47 Beamer
 
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30. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 15:42 SimplyMonk
 
It doesn't matter. Without region locking, those products wouldn't be sold in those regions. It's not like the publishers would be willing to drop their worldwide MSRP by $50 just so they can sell a game in the Philippines for $10. Getting rid of region locking 100% screws poor regions and gains you squat. You wouldn't be able to buy the game in a cheaper region because the publisher wouldn't sell it there.  
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29. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 15:39 Bhruic
 
In many of these countries $10k is more than enough to live comfortably. $10k translates to $40k here..

That does nothing but dodge the question. If they can't afford to pay the $60 for the game, why should they get it for less? If someone is making $10K here, why shouldn't they have the same ability to buy the game at a discounted price?

The cost of most goods scale with the local economy, as do goods sold internationally. Do you know how expensive a box of Pringles is in China? Much cheaper than here. Or how expensive diapers are in Thailand? Again, much cheaper, for the exact same product.

And yet there are no region locks on a can of Pringles or diapers. The original poster bought a physical product, just like the chips or diapers, but only it was prevented from being used by region locks.
 
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28. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 15:30 Beamer
 
Bhruic wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 15:09:
So what you're saying is that countries with an average income of under $10k shouldn't be allowed to play games, eh?

Why should they? Or, to better frame the question, why should someone's ability to purchase a game be decided by their geophysical location, rather than income? When people have brought up in the past that some people pirate games/movies/whatever because they can't afford to buy them, you, and others, have responded with the "if you can't afford it, you shouldn't be playing it" line.

It's not like we are talking about medicine, food and water, or other such necessities here, we are talking about entertainment products.

In many of these countries $10k is more than enough to live comfortably. $10k translates to $40k here. The cost of most goods scale with the local economy, as do goods sold internationally. Do you know how expensive a box of Pringles is in China? Much cheaper than here. Or how expensive diapers are in Thailand? Again, much cheaper, for the exact same product.

Digital items are a bit more of an issue. It doesn't make much sense to ship Pringles, which have an expiration date (of sorts) or Pampers, which are bulky, back from overseas. But emailing a code? No issue at all.

The publishers could release at $50-$60 in that location, but they'd have zero sales (which wouldn't prevent people from playing.) Or they can scale, as everyone else does, and try to fight the grey market.
 
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27. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 15:09 Bhruic
 
So what you're saying is that countries with an average income of under $10k shouldn't be allowed to play games, eh?

Why should they? Or, to better frame the question, why should someone's ability to purchase a game be decided by their geophysical location, rather than income? When people have brought up in the past that some people pirate games/movies/whatever because they can't afford to buy them, you, and others, have responded with the "if you can't afford it, you shouldn't be playing it" line.

It's not like we are talking about medicine, food and water, or other such necessities here, we are talking about entertainment products.
 
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26. Re: Quoteworthy - Paradox on DRM Jan 25, 2012, 14:44 baltar
 
Creston wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 14:13:
Orogogus wrote on Jan 25, 2012, 12:44:
And on the other hand you have horrific markups for the EU and Australia for I don't even know what reason.

Just greed, buddy. It's nothing more than that. Plain, unadulterated greed.

Creston

QFT
 
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