26 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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| 26. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 14, 2012, 10:09 |
Veterator |
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Mordhaus wrote on Jan 13, 2012, 23:26:
Really, so you support plagiarism, copyright or patent theft, and you feel that you cannot put a price on intellectual capital?
As I said previously, you can rationalize it to yourself however you like; but in making that copy you took something that wasn't yours and that you did not pay for in any way, for your own use. You didn't create it, you copied the creation of someone else without reimbursing them for the effort they put into it. It doesn't matter if you would have bought it in the first place or not, you took something that didn't belong to you. Taking something that doesn't belong to you is...?
To get a little pedantic about it, you could take something from patent designs and make it to their spec. Unless something has changed, you would not be in violation of the law unless you tried to sell it or profit from it.
There's nothing stopping you from recreating each individual piece inside your vehicle...which are based on patent designs. Cost might be limiting you from doing so. But it was one of the ideas behind patents and such that you could reverse engineer something and try to find better ways to do something and patent it.
Now, they have all the clauses that supposedly prevent you from unlocking your phones or reprogramming your Xbox to have more functionality that intended. Especially if you sell them after unlocking/modifying them.
So I don't agree that not paying the original designer of a product that you could just make one yourself that ended up better or cheaper than buying off the shelf is against the law or requires rationalization.
Now applying it to books, media, etc. I agree that they should be afforded protection and copying them is easier and much cheaper than say making a replica of a vehicle. But changing it's format should not be considered a different product. IE, If I have a DVD of a movie and I want a ripped version on my computer....I should be able to do that. But right not, by law, you have violated the DVD copyright protection measures in doing that....they even took software down that allowed you to do this although I don't recall the name of it. So you've broken the law, even though you should be entirely within your rights to transfer the product you own to a different format for consumption by yourself.
Same goes for sitting down and typing an copying a book you own and making an ebook. They would probably try to bust your ass for this, even though technically you should be able to media shift it. They just wouldn't believe that you did that on your own....even if you had the software/hardware setup to automate it. They would probably be able to successfully get you for copyright infringement, even though you never sold it or let anyone see it (even if they did own copies, you'd still be in trouble).
It's just a crazy situation having to pay multiple times for the same thing. And the "digital" version of things being more expensive than the non-digital and less restricted versions of them. Digital right now = costs more. When it should be costs less and sell more. Individual authors are catching onto that, the big publishers are not.....and it's in their best interest to sell high because they keep an absorbent fee something like 75-90% of the book price whether it's digital or paper.
I imagine it's much the same for the game publishing houses....and it's certainly so for the movie industry where nothing ever makes money despite all the money it brings in.
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| 25. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 14, 2012, 00:10 |
crypto |
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Mordhaus wrote on Jan 13, 2012, 23:26:
but in making that copy you took something that wasn't yours and that you did not pay for in any way, for your own use. You didn't create it, you copied the creation of someone else without reimbursing them for the effort they put into it. By those accounts then anyone using a photocopier in a library is guilty of theft. You called it theft and I corrected it to copyright infringement, that is not a rationalization it is a legal clarification. What I support and don't support was not in my post, nor did I mention my feelings to answer your first question. As for your second question, you should read the post again but slower because you missed the part about making a copy; not taking the original work but making a copy and leaving the original where it is. That is the deference between an infringement and outright theft and that is why there are different laws to address them... only fear-mongering corporate zealots try to blend the two together in an attempt to manipulate the general public. And, yes, I would download a car  |
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| 24. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 23:28 |
Mordhaus |
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Prez wrote on Jan 13, 2012, 11:09:
I hate when there are concurrent piracy threads going on. You have to say everything twice. 
But seriously, I see little moral equivalency between stealing a car and pirating software or entertainment media. Similar in concept, yes, but not equivalent. When it comes to piracy, in my view, the punishment ought to be in line with a speeding ticket, not Grand Theft Auto (the crime, not the game :o)
I agree with you in this, the punishment should not be the same as stealing a car. A reasonable fine is more than enough deterrent. |
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| 23. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 23:26 |
Mordhaus |
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crypto wrote on Jan 13, 2012, 10:50:
Mordhaus wrote on Jan 13, 2012, 03:55:
In the end, pirating anything is stealing. People who do it can rationalize it anyway they like, but it is the same thing as shoplifting or stealing a car. It's just far easier to get away with it than other forms of theft.
Easy now partner, stealing by definition is to deprive someone of their positions. Making a copy is exactly that, making something. The best you could hope for as an argument is that revenue was lost but you would have to prove that person would have bought it in the first place... unless you don't believe in due process or "innocent till proven guilty" in which case your job should get outsourced; to a country that thinks like you are.
Really, so you support plagiarism, copyright or patent theft, and you feel that you cannot put a price on intellectual capital?
As I said previously, you can rationalize it to yourself however you like; but in making that copy you took something that wasn't yours and that you did not pay for in any way, for your own use. You didn't create it, you copied the creation of someone else without reimbursing them for the effort they put into it. It doesn't matter if you would have bought it in the first place or not, you took something that didn't belong to you. Taking something that doesn't belong to you is...?
Now, this all being said, I do not support SOPA or the other forms of current attempts to enforce piracy laws. However, should it become feasible at sometime in the future to address a fine to someone who has been proven to steal software or other content, I would absolutely be behind that. |
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| 22. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 11:09 |
Prez |
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I hate when there are concurrent piracy threads going on. You have to say everything twice.
But seriously, I see little moral equivalency between stealing a car and pirating software or entertainment media. Similar in concept, yes, but not equivalent. When it comes to piracy, in my view, the punishment ought to be in line with a speeding ticket, not Grand Theft Auto (the crime, not the game :o) |
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| 21. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 10:50 |
crypto |
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Mordhaus wrote on Jan 13, 2012, 03:55:
In the end, pirating anything is stealing. People who do it can rationalize it anyway they like, but it is the same thing as shoplifting or stealing a car. It's just far easier to get away with it than other forms of theft.
Easy now partner, stealing by definition is to deprive someone of their positions. Making a copy is exactly that, making something. The best you could hope for as an argument is that revenue was lost but you would have to prove that person would have bought it in the first place... unless you don't believe in due process or "innocent till proven guilty" in which case your job should get outsourced; to a country that thinks like you are. |
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| 20. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 09:58 |
Verno |
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| Again, the attitude existed before the money did which is what makes his position more quoteworthy. |
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Playing: Super Mario 3D Land, Tales of Graces F, Fire Emblem 3DS
Watching: Hannibal, Community, Life |
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| 19. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 06:11 |
ViRGE |
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Ruffiana wrote on Jan 12, 2012, 13:45:
It's easy to have this attitude when you've already made more money than you could have imagined from your one-man independant endeavor. But I promise, this attitude does not work when you're trying to convince capital investers to fork over tens to hundreds of millions of dollars to make a game.
At this point, it's just free extra money for Notch and it would be pointless to not pander. Agreed. I like his position, but it's clearly a position of convenience. Mojng made nearly $250K selling Minecraft in the last 24 hours; he doesn't have to worry about pirates. |
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| 18. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 03:55 |
Mordhaus |
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While I support his right to do what he wishes with his product, it still doesn't make piracy ok. A former friend and co-worker of mine pirates every single game, song, and movie he wants to check out. His excuse was that it was only taking money away from the evil corporations, not the developers.
I asked him hypothetically, if people pirated the point of sale software we made and the company said that they couldn't offer raises or had to outsource his job to cover the losses, would he be ok with that? His answer was no. The last time I talked to him, he was still pirating because he couldn't afford all the stuff he wanted plus his 'herb' supplement, rent, food, and car.
Now, it may be because I am about 10 years older than him and come from a slightly different generational mindset, but I was taught as a kid that I didn't get something I couldn't afford. So even still today, if I want something really bad, I may have to curb some of my other spending to get it. I could steal it of course, but I was raised to believe that stealing was wrong.
In the end, pirating anything is stealing. People who do it can rationalize it anyway they like, but it is the same thing as shoplifting or stealing a car. It's just far easier to get away with it than other forms of theft. |
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| 17. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 00:24 |
Veterator |
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Games could use a little more frivolity when it comes to their development and experience.
Games and "super strictness" don't seem to mesh well together.
That is not to say that you shouldn't make money off your game, but balance that expectation against the fact that you are MAKING A GAME.
Hell some car manufacturers encourage people to have more fun with a thing that could be used to mow down a crowd of people than game developers do with their games. Game devs try to lock every aspect of it down and then yell at you some more after it's released just for good measure.
Games have become this kind of weird abusive relationship, where you are supposed to hand over you money whenever they release something and then take all the accusations and product problems with a smile on your face.....or else.
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| 16. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 13, 2012, 00:19 |
Jerykk |
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| This is obviously a farce. Notch lost his house, his food and his family because of piracy. In fact, he recently fell into a hunger-induced coma. All because of those filthy pirate scumbags. Remember, if you pirate anything, you're worse than Hitler. |
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| 15. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 19:30 |
Prez |
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Ruffiana wrote on Jan 12, 2012, 13:45:
It's easy to have this attitude when you've already made more money than you could have imagined from your one-man independant endeavor. But I promise, this attitude does not work when you're trying to convince capital investers to fork over tens to hundreds of millions of dollars to make a game.
Then the problem is the business model, not the attitude. Jeff Vogel, creator of the decidedly niche "Avernum" games, has a similar attitude to Notch's, despite that he has made way less money. Another reason why indies trump the big studios in every way imaginable beyond resources.
EDIT: Apologies for misspelling Jeff's name.
This comment was edited on Jan 13, 2012, 00:41. |
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| 14. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 19:16 |
Sepharo |
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I did pirate Minecraft but I ended up buying it the same day.
I think it was like 13 euro or something and it was very early (especially in retrospect) in its development so I was wary to spend that on something unheard of and in alpha.
On the other hand I bought Natural Selection 2 before anything was available because those developers had already provided me with hundreds of hours of free and excellent entertainment with NS1. |
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| [I'm not trolling I'm just] tossing stuff like that in there only to get your panties all bunched up. -TrollinThundr |
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| 13. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 17:34 |
Ventura |
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Verno wrote on Jan 12, 2012, 15:20:
Notch had this attitude pretty much from the beginning before he was successful which is part of what makes the statement worthy of mentioning.
I would wager it's because he's done more than his fair share of pirating in the past, like most Swedes |
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| 12. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 17:19 |
ventry |
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Verno wrote on Jan 12, 2012, 15:20:
Maybe the problem doesn't lie in the piracy statistics but instead the business model you're referring to.
100% This.
Notch seems a happy chappy with his success. Good on him.
However once corporations get involved it's never enough.
They will lie, pander, sleaze, grease, bend and outright break the laws to get you to part with your money BUT, don't ever break the law against them because then the tears will really flow.
i.e. "We're super rich but, you nasty pirates are preventing us from getting MEGA-ULTRA rich.
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| 11. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 16:36 |
nin |
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Nameless Again wrote on Jan 12, 2012, 16:30:
Maybe I *should* pirate Minecraft. Seeing as I can't get any technical support regarding my account through the official channels....
Did you try his twitter account? He seems active there... |
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RollinThundr Apr 17, 2013, 12:25: Eh really tossing stuff like that in there only to get your panties all bunched up. If you really want to call that trolling sure.
Mr. Tact Apr 17, 2013, 12:33: Pretty sure that's the definition of trolling... |
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| 10. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 16:30 |
Nameless Again |
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| Maybe I *should* pirate Minecraft. Seeing as I can't get any technical support regarding my account through the official channels.... |
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| 9. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 15:20 |
Verno |
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Ruffiana wrote on Jan 12, 2012, 13:45:
It's easy to have this attitude when you've already made more money than you could have imagined from your one-man independant endeavor. But I promise, this attitude does not work when you're trying to convince capital investers to fork over tens to hundreds of millions of dollars to make a game.
At this point, it's just free extra money for Notch and it would be pointless to not pander.
Notch had this attitude pretty much from the beginning before he was successful which is part of what makes the statement worthy of mentioning. Maybe the problem doesn't lie in the piracy statistics but instead the business model you're referring to. |
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Playing: Super Mario 3D Land, Tales of Graces F, Fire Emblem 3DS
Watching: Hannibal, Community, Life |
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| 8. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 13:45 |
Ruffiana |
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It's easy to have this attitude when you've already made more money than you could have imagined from your one-man independant endeavor. But I promise, this attitude does not work when you're trying to convince capital investers to fork over tens to hundreds of millions of dollars to make a game.
At this point, it's just free extra money for Notch and it would be pointless to not pander. |
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| 7. |
Re: Quoteworthy: Notch on Piracy |
Jan 12, 2012, 13:32 |
nin |
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Creston wrote on Jan 12, 2012, 13:24:
RIAA and paid-for Representatives: "Notch is costing thousands of American jobs and endangering millions of lives with this attitude. If we just allow people to give the okay to pirate their own IP, THE U.S. IS DOOMED."
Creston
Quick! Someone phone Cevat!
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RollinThundr Apr 17, 2013, 12:25: Eh really tossing stuff like that in there only to get your panties all bunched up. If you really want to call that trolling sure.
Mr. Tact Apr 17, 2013, 12:33: Pretty sure that's the definition of trolling... |
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26 Replies. 2 pages. Viewing page 1.
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