73 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 3.
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| 33. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 16:16 |
PropheT |
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Jerykk wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 12:26:
If pirates have no intention of ever paying publishers a dime, how are publishers losing sales to them..?
Because you're not entitled to have the product for free just because you don't want to pay for it?
Used sales aren't a problem on PC in even a miniscule scale compared to console games, so I don't know why they would use DRM schemes on PC's so heavily to combat a problem that doesn't really exist. |
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| 32. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 15:47 |
avianflu |
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| the article writer's use of "collective hissy fit" kinda tells you where he stands doesn't it? The article writer is a tool. |
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| 31. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 15:43 |
jdreyer |
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Bodolza wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 14:54:
Ruffiana wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 14:30:
How can you lose sales you never had in the first place? That arguement might hold water when talking about "used" game sales, but it's completely invalid for piracy.
Example 1: Microsoft manages to block all piracy of their product. Most of the pirates switch to Linux and Libre Office. Linux becomes the dominant desktop platform in the world, destroying Microsoft's marketshare.
Example 2: Bethesda blocks all piracy of Oblivion. Many people who would have played the pirated version didn't. RPGs remain a niche, as they did for many years. When Skyrim is released, sales are much lower than they were.
Bodolza, this reasoning is total bullshit.
First, everyone has their price. Pirates have already invested money in the hardware, money in an internet connection, time in installing and setting up a bittorrent client, etc. etc. Pirates have the desire to play the game, with extensive time and money invested already. If piracy were magically made impossible, there would be some price point at which they would purchase the game, or they wouldn't have invested so much already. Or they would invest less in the hardware in order to afford the software. The desire to play is there, so if piracy were impossible, most would find some way of completing the transaction.
Second, arguing that MS is in business because people pirate it is stupid. People buy (and pirate) it b/c it's a superior product to Linux, otherwise Linux (being free) would have already taken over. Also, Windows is a monopoly with no real alternatives for certain applications like gaming. It takes money to make good software, and while I think that the government should force MS open its source code to competitors (a la Intel), they are in business on the strength of their software and anticompetitive business practices.
Third, your Oblivion example is this: Lots of people pirated Oblivion and enjoyed it, so they paid full price for Skyrim. Um, no. Pirates do not magically become paying customers. Bethesda has spent the last decade and a half continuously improving this franchise, building its brand, and advertising. That's why it's selling like crazy. Anyone who pirated Oblivion would most likely pirate Skyrim as well. |
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| Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. |
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| 30. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 15:37 |
Bodolza |
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theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 15:14:
Actually, we've seen publishers claim that when zero-day piracy is eliminated due to more sophisticated DRM (i.e. it lasts a week, rather than being cracked before release) they see higher sales than projected.
If all piracy is blocked, it will likely have the effect of shrinking the entire market for commercial software. True, in the short term it's very likely that sales will increase for some well-known publishers, but I haven't seen any convincing evidence that over-all sales will increase over time.
IMO, competitive pricing and availability in combination with social pressure against piracy is the best route. The second isn't going to happen until publishers stop fighting their customers, and even then, it's going to take some time for customers to forget the bad treatment. Society as a whole is generally OK with piracy right now, and a good deal of that attitude has to do with the adversarial posture that publishers have taken. |
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| 29. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 15:14 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Bodolza wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 12:47:
I'm sorry, but there is no evidence that this is true. It's also possible that sales would completely tank as people looked to either other sources of entertainment or free software. Actually, we've seen publishers claim that when zero-day piracy is eliminated due to more sophisticated DRM (i.e. it lasts a week, rather than being cracked before release) they see higher sales than projected. And there is plenty of evidence in other markets to suggest that decreasing the supply of fake merchandise results in an increase in sales of the legitimate goods, though there is no suggestion that all the people that bought fake goods would have paid for the legitimate version. Just because you want there to be no evidence does not make it so. Obviously there is no conclusive evidence and there never can be due to the number of variables involved when comparing different games with different DRM.
Pirates like to jump on the "I use pirated games as demos and purchase the ones I like" bandwagon but it's a convenient self-justification to give them a moral right to commit an immoral action. Rather than piracy being something negative pirates convince themselves they're doing the industry a favour, supporting the "good guys" and punishing the "evil publishers".
I see piracy a lot like a religion. Pirates want to believe that they have a justification for their actions; they reject any evidence that runs contrary to their beliefs and practices and they seek to convert others to theirs ways. I have many friends that say "why do you buy software when you can just download it for free?". I see pirates attack non-believers; I see pirate websites making a fortune in advertising revenue.
However, I agree that I shouldn't have been so absolute to say it was "true", when I should have said "very likely true". |
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Core i7 2600-K (4.6GHz) | 12GB DDR3 | GTX680 SLI (1215/1605) | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB SSD | Windows 8 Pro
Hazro HZ30Wie 30" | Saffire PRO 40 | Razer Mamba | Coolermaster RP1000W
SteamID: theyarecomingforyou |
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| 28. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 15:06 |
jdreyer |
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Jerykk wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 12:26:
Game publishers are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to battling piracy. If they do nothing, they are essentially ceding a good portion of their sales to pirates who have no intention of ever paying them a dime.
If pirates have no intention of ever paying publishers a dime, how are publishers losing sales to them..?
And let's be realistic here. DRM isn't realy designed to stop piracy. It's designed to stop used sales. With all the CD-keys and online activations, the second-hand market for PC games is pretty much nonexistent unless those games were released back in the 90's or early 2000's. This is why publishers have started introducing CD-keys and similar DRM schemes to console games.
This is somewhat true. I would care if I actually paid $60 for a game and desired to resell it after I am done. But when I pay $10 for a new game, the used value is so low that it's not worth the effort of reselling it anyway. And I like to keep my games forever and replay them. I recently replayed both Diablo II (2000) and Total Annhilation (1997). |
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| Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. |
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| 27. |
Re: SOPA Isn’t the Solution, But Can We At Least Agree There’s A Problem |
Jan 11, 2012, 14:59 |
jdreyer |
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Beamer wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 11:58:
What really solves piracy is making something easier to get through legitimate channels. "Ease" also involves price. I'm guessing Steam has done a ton to stem piracy just by being easier than driving to a store and by having so many sales. The flip side, though, is I guess it has done a ton to stem piracy on smaller games but done significantly less for the larger games that people need to have day 1.
I agree. Ease of use and reliability are huge selling points that make it worth $10 per game. Steam and D2D (and others) make it easy to quickly download my game any time, as many times as I like. I am assured that it will be bug free and always available. In the case of Steam, I get to see if my friends or relatives are online so I can invite them to play. Steam especially adds so much value for the money.
Torrenting stuff has lots of downsides. If I torrent something, it may or may not be what is advertised. It may have a trojan in it. It may not be there in a year. I won't be able to play it online. I could be harassed by some settlement letter like Righthaven.
Just make it easy for actual customers, and don't do stuff that hurts us, and people will pay for games. |
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| Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. |
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| 26. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 14:54 |
Bodolza |
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Ruffiana wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 14:30:
How can you lose sales you never had in the first place? That arguement might hold water when talking about "used" game sales, but it's completely invalid for piracy.
Example 1: Microsoft manages to block all piracy of their product. Most of the pirates switch to Linux and Libre Office. Linux becomes the dominant desktop platform in the world, destroying Microsoft's marketshare.
Example 2: Bethesda blocks all piracy of Oblivion. Many people who would have played the pirated version didn't. RPGs remain a niche, as they did for many years. When Skyrim is released, sales are much lower than they were. |
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| 25. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 14:48 |
Ruffiana |
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eRe4s3r wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 11:15:
Higher income will solve piracy exactly as much as clean tap water eradicated the business of selling bottled water with inferior quality....
Piracy is not an issue of money. Its human nature to want everything, and if given the option and knowledge to get what you want for free instantly with 0 repercussions, humans will take that route.
From personal experience I can say this is not true. When I was younger, newly married, and had a lot more disposable income my wife and I spent a lot of money on purchasing DVDs. Now that we're older, more responsible, and have children I can't justify buying so many movies on a whim. If we had more income, I'd probably be looking to update my library of beloved films to Blu-Ray.
What I have not done, largely because I feel it's a matter of ethics, is turn toward piracy. I would rather go without a game or movie that I cannot currently afford than pirate it. It takes a lot of time and energy from real, living people to make movies, music, or games and it's an insult to the creative process to tell them their efforts are worth absolutely nothing to me. |
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| 24. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 14:37 |
PHJF |
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Uhhh SOPA has jack shit to do with video games. Unlike the Wonderful Worlds of Movies and Music we poor gamers don't have bottomless-pockets lobbyist organizations looking out for our industry's "best interests".
The ESA doesn't hold a candle. Video games are silly toys for prepubescent boys, remember? |
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| 23. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 14:30 |
Ruffiana |
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Bodolza wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 12:47:
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 12:42:
they said that there is no way that if piracy was completely eliminated that sales would not increase as a result. And like it or not that is true
I'm sorry, but there is no evidence that this is true. It's also possible that sales would completely tank as people looked to either other sources of entertainment or free software.
How can you lose sales you never had in the first place? That arguement might hold water when talking about "used" game sales, but it's completely invalid for piracy.
Somehow magically eliminating all piracy would undoubtedly lead to some level of increased sales. It's just common sense. You can see a similiar effect by walking into a Gamestop and witnessing someone who really wants a game buy a full-priced retail copy or even a more expensive collector's edition of a game when the slightly less expensive "used copy" isn't available. It's the exact same mentality. If people want something, they're going to get it...at the lowest cost possible but if that low-cost or free option isn't there then some of them are going to pony up and pay. The real kicker is, forcing pirates to become legitimate, paying customers would ultimately be a win for gamers. I understand and sympathize with the anti-DRM arguements, but piracy itself is a cancer in the age of digital media and don't understand why anyone would want to defend it.
The arguement about piracy is moot at this point. Gamers have already set the industry down a different path away from traditional sales of a 'product' with the undesirable compontent of a fundamental change in how games are financed, how they're designed to support monitization, and how they're controlled and secured.
Maybe it will be better, probably worse for at least a while, but unquestionably it will be different. The die has been cast.
This comment was edited on Jan 11, 2012, 14:38. |
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| 22. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 12:56 |
Cutter |
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Silicon Avatar wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 10:47:
Black markets (piracy) exist when demand exceeds supply at the price point most of the market is willing to bear.
The industry took a two-pronged approach to reduce the black market: lowered price points (Steam sales) and legislation.
One was popular and one wasn't. Steam is succeeding and other companies are still griping and complaining and trying to buy politicians.
Exactly. It's why these major corps like MS have two tiered pricing schemes around the globe. A premium for the first world and much more realistic price for everyone else. And they wonder why people get pissed-off and want to engage in piracy in the first place.
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| "Are you crazy? Is that your problem?" - Jack Burton |
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| 21. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 12:47 |
Bodolza |
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theyarecomingforyou wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 12:42:
they said that there is no way that if piracy was completely eliminated that sales would not increase as a result. And like it or not that is true
I'm sorry, but there is no evidence that this is true. It's also possible that sales would completely tank as people looked to either other sources of entertainment or free software. |
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| 20. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 12:42 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Jerykk wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 12:26:
If pirates have no intention of ever paying publishers a dime, how are publishers losing sales to them..? If you read the rest of the article you'd see they already covered that when they said that there is no way that if piracy was completely eliminated that sales would not increase as a result. And like it or not that is true, despite the protestations of those claiming pirated copies can act as promotional tools. Of course you'll likely find the 90-95% of people still wouldn't buy the game and they're not suggesting otherwise.
But I can also understand it from a moral perspective. Why the fuck should somebody that has not paid for the game and has no right to play it get to benefit from the hard work of the developers? I oppose anything that impacts upon legitimate users but if they could eliminate piracy overnight without that then I would happily support it. Anyone that suggests otherwise is being unreasonable. |
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Core i7 2600-K (4.6GHz) | 12GB DDR3 | GTX680 SLI (1215/1605) | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB SSD | Windows 8 Pro
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SteamID: theyarecomingforyou |
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| 19. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 12:35 |
theyarecomingforyou |
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Verno wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 10:46:
I agree with your other sentiments but this itself is a misconception considering casual copying was a trend that peaked long ago and has since moved to downloading. Casual copying is piracy by the way. People don't really "share" games on DVD anymore, it's not practical and hasn't been for awhile even without DRM. They mainly do that with movies and music though even that is a trend on a sharp decline thanks to the ease of streaming and legitimate download sites becoming more prevalent. Admittedly it has diminished but don't forget that a lot of parents buy games for themselves and their children and many feel it is acceptable for one copy to be used on every computer in the house. It's also to stop secondhand sales, with one-use only serials and associated online accounts. And for shareholders, who want to see some evidence that publishers are trying to counter piracy. All games end up pirated - whether they include DRM or not - so it has no impact upon direct piracy, where a user sets out to download a game. It's all about secondary losses: where people feel it is their right to give a copy to their brother or friend; where second-hand sales generate huge profits for retailers but not for the publishers whose work is being sold.
DRM doesn't address direct piracy, except for the extreme examples - Ubisoft being the most obvious one. However, it certainly does piss people off. And even though I like Steam I can perfectly understand why someone would be opposed to games requiring it, even though it is a very mild form of DRM.
I'm glad to see the use of third-party DRM dropping on Steam. Ubisoft is one of the few companies that still use it and I fucking hate their Tages bullshit. I tried to play Anno 1404 the other day but it gave me an error message on activation - turns out that I had to manually download the Tages drivers because the included ones didn't support Windows 7, despite the game being on Steam and auto-updating. I'm going to be seriously pissed off it they fuck with Far Cry 3, as FC2 DRM was bad enough (though it was removed in a patch sometime after release). |
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Core i7 2600-K (4.6GHz) | 12GB DDR3 | GTX680 SLI (1215/1605) | OCZ Vertex 3 120GB SSD | Windows 8 Pro
Hazro HZ30Wie 30" | Saffire PRO 40 | Razer Mamba | Coolermaster RP1000W
SteamID: theyarecomingforyou |
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| 18. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 12:26 |
Jerykk |
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Game publishers are caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to battling piracy. If they do nothing, they are essentially ceding a good portion of their sales to pirates who have no intention of ever paying them a dime.
If pirates have no intention of ever paying publishers a dime, how are publishers losing sales to them..?
And let's be realistic here. DRM isn't realy designed to stop piracy. It's designed to stop used sales. With all the CD-keys and online activations, the second-hand market for PC games is pretty much nonexistent unless those games were released back in the 90's or early 2000's. This is why publishers have started introducing CD-keys and similar DRM schemes to console games. |
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| 17. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 12:07 |
eRe4s3r |
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the balance in the universe will restore itself anyway, humans are just specks on some irrelevant planet, give it another 2000 years and then, either humans will continue to devastate the universe just on a grander scale or we will be dead as a race.
Humans are unable to not be egoistic assholes. Yes, 1 or 2 humans can be great and altruistic, maybe 100 can be superb, creating a true utopia. But 7 billion and you got yourself a setup for Armageddon, because the lowest common demoniator of 7 billion is very very low indeed.
Short of wiping out 90% of the population somehow there is no way we will ever reach a sustainability. You know what the max sustainability of earth is? 2 Billion.. so better get the shelter ready. |
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| 16. |
Re: SOPA Isn’t the Solution, But Can We At Least Agree There’s A Problem |
Jan 11, 2012, 11:58 |
Beamer |
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PropheT wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 11:45:
Kajetan wrote on Jan 11, 2012, 09:50:
There is no proof that DRM increases sales, there is no proof that the lack of DRM decreases sales. For DECADES, since the early days of tapes and video cassettes the fear of loosing sales is based on assumptions, not actual, proven facts.
Everyone I knew had copied tapes 20 years ago, burned CD's 10 years ago, and working IT jobs for the last 15 years half of the people I've worked with in that time have pirated games and movies constantly with no intention of buying them.
I don't know what proof you're looking for, but common sense says that this stuff being easily and readily available for free when companies need to sell the product is a major problem. It's not like piracy sites are unpopular and nobody with a sliver of intelligence and honesty really believes that pirates are just using those games as a demo before they buy.
What really solves piracy is making something easier to get through legitimate channels. "Ease" also involves price. I'm guessing Steam has done a ton to stem piracy just by being easier than driving to a store and by having so many sales. The flip side, though, is I guess it has done a ton to stem piracy on smaller games but done significantly less for the larger games that people need to have day 1.
Price is tricky, though. Most people have an impulse buy range of $5 or so. For some things it goes up to $20. For some it goes down to $10. $5 seems high for movies, still, as so many still pirate instead of rent on their cable box. And with major games you can't move the price much. You won't get a huge dent in piracy by dropping $10 or even $20, and any more than that and you're losing more in margin than you're making up in converting pirates to consumers.
It works fantastically for some indie games, though, who can release at $4.99 instead of $9.99 and see a huge jump. |
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| 15. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 11:57 |
space captain |
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its all about restoring balance to the universe
if we had logical fairness as a general rule in society and its economic functions, then piracy would be entirely unnecessary ... until then, i'll take all of your moralistic superiority and shove it right up your ass... you got a problem with what im doing? go ahead and try to stop me, you worthless shits - its the law of the jungle around here, and im the fucking cop |
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| 14. |
Re: Op Ed |
Jan 11, 2012, 11:55 |
eRe4s3r |
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But assuming that is correct, more potential customers lead to more potential sales, more potential products and thus more piracy, not less.
But yeah, nothing will "solve" piracy, with that meant reduce. And i think it'd be a success to at best level piracy rates and sustain them at the current levels, technology and internet speed will only grow and pirating has never been easier and safer than nowadays.
And funnily, the actual piracy on sea is also growing and has never been easier than nowadays... |
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73 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 3.
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