Jeklor wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 15:31:

Cutter wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 14:03:

Nomaar wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 12:13:

Cutter wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 11:43:
You're going to see big drops in pops at the 3 and 6 mo. period.

Completely disagree. This is the first MMORPG since WoW that has legs. The subscribership will be growing for a good while and will reach several million fairly shortly. The in-game buzz -- not the bullshit on the forums -- confirms this. It has all the addictive elements you normally associate with an MMORPG, and a rich storyline that differentiates it from other titles. The PvP combat mechanics also have staying power, they just need to beef up the PvP content. Plus, Bioware has retained its entire development team and seems well-prepared to add a lot of new content fairly quickly.

I beta tested Age of Conan, Rift and Warhammer Online, and I could see pretty soon those titles would sputter out in a few months. This is entirely different--the same thing ain't happening here. We'll see in six months.

What legs? There's zero exploration to speak of - trains go off the rails more than this game. A ton of recycled content - as has become EABioware's norm now - the PvP is nothing great, very limited dungeons/PvP maps, weak crafting system. Weak arcade space combat mini-game. The novelty is the voice-over stuff which when done once, twice tops, will just be something else to skip through. The entire way this game is setup isn't developer friendly to banging out new content quickly so that's a major roadblock. In short it brings nothing new to the genre and takes a few steps backwards in some key areas.

They really would have been much better off banging out a KOTOR 3 and 4 for the time and money this thing has taken. This is not a game built to last. And only the hardcore Star Wars nuts will stick around for any length of time. Within a week you can hit max level easily. And withing a month see and do all there is to do. So how exacly is this going to last? No, this game has buzz because it has a 100 million dollar marketing push behind it. All the PR in the world though won't give it the legs it doesn't have.

Not just to pick on SWTOR because I think this model for the genre is basically over and done with anyway - yes even for GW2, which still appreards to be doing it better, but it's still too limited. If I had the means I'd be developing a new (slightly larger scale) NWN style game now. That's the way to go for the future!

Couldn't have said it better myself. On top of that, I tested the beta for 4 months. I watched in disbelief as they inexplicably removed popular features like the "unify colors" setting which makes Trooper worth playing, removed planetary GTN terminals which killed the economy, nerfed Commando and increased the difficulty to the point of making some quests nearly impossible to solo. All the while you got the sense that the devs couldn't care less about what we thought, because there was hardly any communication from them, and you could almost feel the arrogance. But back to your points, you're 100% right. Once people realize this is essentially KOTOR 3 with a few multiplayer elements sprinkled in and the brand novelty wears off, you'll see the number of subs start to plummet. I doubt many people will be paying the ridiculous $14.99/mnth fee for what is essentially a single player game for very long. It has no legs, IMO.

You fought in the Queue Wars?

Creston wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 16:25:

nin wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 15:52:

Parallax Abstraction wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 15:36:

Undocumented Alien wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 10:22:
Star Wars: Attack of the Queues

You fought in the Queue Wars?

Fought? Why no, we all just stood around, alt-tabbing in and out and surfing the web.

"This is your father's wireless router. He wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it."

Creston

nin wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 15:52:

Parallax Abstraction wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 15:36:

Undocumented Alien wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 10:22:
Star Wars: Attack of the Queues

You fought in the Queue Wars?

Fought? Why no, we all just stood around, alt-tabbing in and out and surfing the web.

nin wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 15:52:

Parallax Abstraction wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 15:36:

Undocumented Alien wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 10:22:
Star Wars: Attack of the Queues

You fought in the Queue Wars?

Fought? Why no, we all just stood around, alt-tabbing in and out and surfing the web.

Parallax Abstraction wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 15:36:

Undocumented Alien wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 10:22:
Star Wars: Attack of the Queues

You fought in the Queue Wars?

Undocumented Alien wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 10:22:
Star Wars: Attack of the Queues

Cutter wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 14:03:

Nomaar wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 12:13:

Cutter wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 11:43:
You're going to see big drops in pops at the 3 and 6 mo. period.

Completely disagree. This is the first MMORPG since WoW that has legs. The subscribership will be growing for a good while and will reach several million fairly shortly. The in-game buzz -- not the bullshit on the forums -- confirms this. It has all the addictive elements you normally associate with an MMORPG, and a rich storyline that differentiates it from other titles. The PvP combat mechanics also have staying power, they just need to beef up the PvP content. Plus, Bioware has retained its entire development team and seems well-prepared to add a lot of new content fairly quickly.

I beta tested Age of Conan, Rift and Warhammer Online, and I could see pretty soon those titles would sputter out in a few months. This is entirely different--the same thing ain't happening here. We'll see in six months.

What legs? There's zero exploration to speak of - trains go off the rails more than this game. A ton of recycled content - as has become EABioware's norm now - the PvP is nothing great, very limited dungeons/PvP maps, weak crafting system. Weak arcade space combat mini-game. The novelty is the voice-over stuff which when done once, twice tops, will just be something else to skip through. The entire way this game is setup isn't developer friendly to banging out new content quickly so that's a major roadblock. In short it brings nothing new to the genre and takes a few steps backwards in some key areas.

They really would have been much better off banging out a KOTOR 3 and 4 for the time and money this thing has taken. This is not a game built to last. And only the hardcore Star Wars nuts will stick around for any length of time. Within a week you can hit max level easily. And withing a month see and do all there is to do. So how exacly is this going to last? No, this game has buzz because it has a 100 million dollar marketing push behind it. All the PR in the world though won't give it the legs it doesn't have.

Not just to pick on SWTOR because I think this model for the genre is basically over and done with anyway - yes even for GW2, which still appreards to be doing it better, but it's still too limited. If I had the means I'd be developing a new (slightly larger scale) NWN style game now. That's the way to go for the future!

Cutter wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 14:03:

Nomaar wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 12:13:

Cutter wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 11:43:
You're going to see big drops in pops at the 3 and 6 mo. period.

Completely disagree. This is the first MMORPG since WoW that has legs. The subscribership will be growing for a good while and will reach several million fairly shortly. The in-game buzz -- not the bullshit on the forums -- confirms this. It has all the addictive elements you normally associate with an MMORPG, and a rich storyline that differentiates it from other titles. The PvP combat mechanics also have staying power, they just need to beef up the PvP content. Plus, Bioware has retained its entire development team and seems well-prepared to add a lot of new content fairly quickly.

I beta tested Age of Conan, Rift and Warhammer Online, and I could see pretty soon those titles would sputter out in a few months. This is entirely different--the same thing ain't happening here. We'll see in six months.

What legs? There's zero exploration to speak of - trains go off the rails more than this game. A ton of recycled content - as has become EABioware's norm now - the PvP is nothing great, very limited dungeons/PvP maps, weak crafting system. Weak arcade space combat mini-game. The novelty is the voice-over stuff which when done once, twice tops, will just be something else to skip through. The entire way this game is setup isn't developer friendly to banging out new content quickly so that's a major roadblock. In short it brings nothing new to the genre and takes a few steps backwards in some key areas.

They really would have been much better off banging out a KOTOR 3 and 4 for the time and money this thing has taken. This is not a game built to last. And only the hardcore Star Wars nuts will stick around for any length of time. Within a week you can hit max level easily. And withing a month see and do all there is to do. So how exacly is this going to last? No, this game has buzz because it has a 100 million dollar marketing push behind it. All the PR in the world though won't give it the legs it doesn't have.

Not just to pick on SWTOR because I think this model for the genre is basically over and done with anyway - yes even for GW2, which still appreards to be doing it better, but it's still too limited. If I had the means I'd be developing a new (slightly larger scale) NWN style game now. That's the way to go for the future!

Umbragen wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 12:55:

Dirwulf wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 11:18:

I think as they add content, they will not only maintain their player base, but add to it.

That's just it, they wont be able to add content fast enough.

Yewkon wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 13:52:

Graham wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 13:42:
So you're kiting the boss while your pocket healer is keeping you alive?

Sounds like a valid MMO mechanic to me. I seem to recall Grobbulus has a similar mechanic: run backwards in a circle until he's dead (he can't poison bomb the tank, so the mechanics are identical...).

Essentially: STOP WHINING.

Not really a pocket healer as it was the NPC companion that heals you every now and then. I only got the big robot boss stuck on the boxes. I think the others I had to run around in a circle while shooting them. I supposed you can consider it a valid tactic, if the Grobbulus person you're talking about was supposed to be solo-able. I don't think these Flashpoints are supposed to be solo-able.

Cutter wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 14:03:
Not just to pick on SWTOR because I think this model for the genre is basically over and done with anyway - yes even for GW2, which still appreards to be doing it better, but it's still too limited. If I had the means I'd be developing a new (slightly larger scale) NWN style game now. That's the way to go for the future!

Yewkon wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 13:30:

Darks wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 13:10:


The Esseles Flashpoint is a low level FP. you can start it at level 9 and up. but, you would have to be at least a level 15 or above to solo it. There are a few boss fights that are pretty dificult. You defianlty are not going to solo this FP at 10 thru 14.

I may have been level 9 or 10. I can't remember. I was whatever level you would normally be when you reach that flashpoint in the game. I didn't backtrack and come back at a higher level. This was before I was able to PvP so maybe I wasn't even level 11, yet.

Dont believe me? Make a bounty hunter, and run through that flashpoint. Get the bosses on the opposite sides of the stacks of boxes, or for two of them (the jedi at the end, and some other guy) run around in a large circle, keep passing you companion so you get healed. It was ridiculously simply.

My point is: If the Flashpoint AI is so easily exploitable, and doesn't ever 'reset', like in every other MMO ever, what's to prevent people from farming world bosses and the like by exploiting the crappy AI?

Yewkon wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 13:52:

Graham wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 13:42:
So you're kiting the boss while your pocket healer is keeping you alive?

Sounds like a valid MMO mechanic to me. I seem to recall Grobbulus has a similar mechanic: run backwards in a circle until he's dead (he can't poison bomb the tank, so the mechanics are identical...).

Essentially: STOP WHINING.

Not really a pocket healer as it was the NPC companion that heals you every now and then. I only got the big robot boss stuck on the boxes. I think the others I had to run around in a circle while shooting them. I supposed you can consider it a valid tactic, if the Grobbulus person you're talking about was supposed to be solo-able. I don't think these Flashpoints are supposed to be solo-able.

Nomaar wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 12:13:

Cutter wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 11:43:
You're going to see big drops in pops at the 3 and 6 mo. period.

Completely disagree. This is the first MMORPG since WoW that has legs. The subscribership will be growing for a good while and will reach several million fairly shortly. The in-game buzz -- not the bullshit on the forums -- confirms this. It has all the addictive elements you normally associate with an MMORPG, and a rich storyline that differentiates it from other titles. The PvP combat mechanics also have staying power, they just need to beef up the PvP content. Plus, Bioware has retained its entire development team and seems well-prepared to add a lot of new content fairly quickly.

I beta tested Age of Conan, Rift and Warhammer Online, and I could see pretty soon those titles would sputter out in a few months. This is entirely different--the same thing ain't happening here. We'll see in six months.

Graham wrote on Dec 20, 2011, 13:42:
So you're kiting the boss while your pocket healer is keeping you alive?

Sounds like a valid MMO mechanic to me. I seem to recall Grobbulus has a similar mechanic: run backwards in a circle until he's dead (he can't poison bomb the tank, so the mechanics are identical...).

Essentially: STOP WHINING.