60 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
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| 60. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 20, 2011, 13:37 |
Beamer |
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People can like crappy things. That doesn't make them less crappy.
I have not played Skyrim yet (sadly.) I have barely watched any videos. But from what I've seen, and from remembering Oblivion's UI, I have no real concerns about someone calling the UI objectively crappy. It looks beautiful, and would probably make a cool but frustrating website design. That adds up to a terrible UI design, on consoles but especially PC.
Oblivion made you scroll through far too much (seriously, why were important items buried under mounds of keys? Why weren't keys in a separate key hook? Why do I need to see what keys I have at all?!
Bad UI. Emphasis on art design not usability. |
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| 59. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 20, 2011, 12:31 |
Jerykk |
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Yes, I agree with your points but that does not make them facts. Most players of Skyrim probably agree with you. They're still not facts.
I'm very curious as to how you define "fact." Is it a not a fact that Skyrim limits you to 8 hotkeys? Is it not a fact that my keyboard has 10 number keys? Is it not a fact that there are no scroll bars in Skyrim's UI? Is it not a fact that scrolling would be faster with scroll bars, PgUp/PgDn/Home/End support and proper sorting? Is it not a fact that the game requires scrolling in every menu? Is it a not a fact that navigating these menus would be faster if you didn't have to scroll at all? Is it not a fact that assigning hotkeys would be faster if I didn't have to mark items as favorites, then open up the "quick" menu and assign hotkeys to them there?
You keep arguing that my facts are opinions but you have yet to cite any specific examples of this. Please, point out which facts are actually opinions. In my youthful experience, I've learned that debates work a lot better when people actually address specific points, rather than making vague claims with no apparent basis. I'll concede that calling the UI lousy is subjective, as it's only lousy if you care about speed and efficiency. If you only care about aesthetics, the UI is fine. However, every single point I made supporting my claim is fact.
This comment was edited on Dec 20, 2011, 12:38. |
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| 58. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 20, 2011, 08:58 |
Verno |
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Yes, I agree with your points but that does not make them facts. Most players of Skyrim probably agree with you. They're still not facts
We're not writing a thesis here so who cares? Some of what he said likely might fit the dictionary definition of factual. The flip side to what you said is the "that's just opinion" defense. The user interface poorly conveys information and requires too much scrolling, that is factual enough for me and no one has refuted even a single thing Jerykk has said. It seems to me people are splitting hairs over nothing substantial, presumably because they can't address what he said.
Here's a fact - this is an optional mod that only requires a benign script extender that has no known compatibility or stability problems. People should try it out for themselves so they can see just how wide the gulf is between what Bethesda implemented and proper user interface design.
This comment was edited on Dec 20, 2011, 09:09. |
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Playing: Animal Crossing, Sleeping Dogs, Tales of Graces F
Watching: Survivorman, Justified, Silent Running |
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| 57. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 20, 2011, 08:10 |
Pankin |
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Normally, at this point, I'd abandon such an exchange in favor of doing, well, anything else. But I wish to make it clear that SV and I are not defending Skyrim's UI. Come to think of it, I shouldn't speak for StingingVelvet, so I won't. I'm not arguing in defense of the stock UI because it's indefensible. You can safely bet I'll be trying all these UI mods to replace the terrible stock UI.
What I AM saying, however, is that you cannot wave a wand and turn a subjective opinion into an objective fact just because you feel strongly about those opinions. I'm truly sorry but you can't. Again, it doesn't matter how strongly you feel that the points you've made are facts. They're not. They're opinions. I even agree with all of them. How's that for the equivalent of walking and chewing gum at the same time?
Yes, I agree with your points but that does not make them facts. Most players of Skyrim probably agree with you. They're still not facts.
Here's a question for you: why do you feel as though your expressions must be that of objective fact? Probably at some point, someone told you that objective facts are "better" than opinions. They're actually not, but that's getting into far too much subtlety and nuance for a Blues News forum. Plus, no one's going to read this because I waited too long to post. But anyway...please don't feel like you can't express opinions and label them as such. No one's going to think less of you for it, I promise. You're actually a pretty persuasive writer already.
But what you're experiencing is the youthful conviction without all the wisdom that comes with age and experience; wisdom that, among many many many other things, provides for an understanding of the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. And the experience to know that they're not opposites.
Sorry I insulted you earlier (the shortbus crack) but I lost my temper. Have a great day and Happy Holidays! |
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| 56. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 22:48 |
Jerykk |
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You're confusing something called a fact with opinions. "This UI sucks" is an opinion. "The world is round (or spherical actually)" is a fact.
The reasons I listed as to why the UI sucks are all 100% fact. Facts that no one has been able to refute. If you think that the quality of an interface is not determined by its speed and efficiency, then I guess I could see why you'd disagree. From a purely aesthetic standpoint, Skyrim's UI is pretty slick. However, functionality takes precedence over style when it comes to UI and Skyrim's UI is neither quick nor efficient, again, for the factual reasons I listed. |
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| 55. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 22:23 |
Dades |
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StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 20:30:
Missing water textures on occasion is a known bug with the 4GB patch that many have mentioned. Maybe he updated it again, I dunno, but it's pretty irrelevant Drama boy. You're confusing something called a fact with opinions. "This UI sucks" is an opinion. "The world is round (or spherical actually)" is a fact.
Yep I'm the dramatic one here, posting 20 times to defend the terrible Skyrim UI. I encountered a single bug, freaked out like a child and made ridiculous statements about things I don't understand, whew someone stop me.
This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2011, 22:31. |
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| 54. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 20:30 |
StingingVelvet |
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Dades wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 18:25:
You should take better care of your computer so you don't have technical problems that you need to blame on user mods.
Missing water textures on occasion is a known bug with the 4GB patch that many have mentioned. Maybe he updated it again, I dunno, but it's pretty irrelevant Drama boy. |
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| 53. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 20:28 |
StingingVelvet |
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Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 12:26:
See above response. I can disagree that the world is round but that doesn't somehow nullify the fact that the world is indeed round.
You're confusing something called a fact with opinions. "This UI sucks" is an opinion. "The world is round (or spherical actually)" is a fact. |
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| 52. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 20:23 |
Jerykk |
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I rest my case.
I think you need to have a case before you can rest it.  |
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| 51. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 20:04 |
Pankin |
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Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 12:26:
So I have to ask: do you know what the words subjective and objective mean? These words each have a specific meaning that you can't simply ignore and expect to be taken seriously.
Can you actually refute any of the specific examples I presented? Until you do, you can't expect to be taken seriously.
The very fact I disagree with you makes your statement incorrect.
See above response. I can disagree that the world is round but that doesn't somehow nullify the fact that the world is indeed round.
I rest my case.
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| 50. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 18:25 |
Dades |
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StingingVelvet wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 10:52:
Yes drama queen, because I think the normal UI is fine and replacing a small part of it is not worth the effort involved I should be a console gamer. I feel so ashamed of myself.
You should take better care of your computer so you don't have technical problems that you need to blame on user mods. |
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| 49. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 13:35 |
Ozmodan |
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Pankin wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 07:26:
Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 03:15:
Hey look, you made a subjective statement sound like a fact.
It's not really subjective at all. When designing menus that players will need to navigate on a regular basis, you want to ensure that navigation is as quick and efficient as possible. This is objectively not the case for Skyrim's UI. Every menu involves redundant scrolling. There's no reason why a map should require scrolling. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to see all my skills and perks without scrolling. There's no reason why I should have to spend more than 10 seconds scrolling through my potions, ingredients, books, etc. There's no reason why, given the amount of scrolling required to navigate these menus, there is no scroll bar or PgUp/PgDn/Home/End support, or the ability to sort by name, value, weight, damage, etc. There's no reason why I should have to mark an item as a favorite before I can assign it a hotkey. There's no reason why I should be limited to 8 hotkeys when my keyboard has 10 number keys.
Skyrim's UI is objectively lousy.
So I have to ask: do you know what the words subjective and objective mean? These words each have a specific meaning that you can't simply ignore and expect to be taken seriously.
It's perfectly ok if you don't like Skyrim's UI. You're not alone, lad. But to assign your subjective dissatisfaction to that of an objective fact is delusional.
You have hereby forfeited your place among the intelligent. Now, please watch your step as you get on the shortbus. Here's your lunchbox, play nice with the other kids.
Huh? The UI that comes with the game sucks on a PC and that is a solid FACT! Anyone that can't see that is delusional. Very typical of this developers games, they really should stick to consoles as they have no clue how to write a UI for the PC. That is why for a game that should be a 10, only gets an 8. Jerykk pretty much nailed the problems with it.
Tried the mod and it helps. There will be other UI mods out as I know a couple of people working on them.
When you question people's intelligence maybe you should look in the mirror instead |
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| 48. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 12:26 |
Jerykk |
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So I have to ask: do you know what the words subjective and objective mean? These words each have a specific meaning that you can't simply ignore and expect to be taken seriously.
Can you actually refute any of the specific examples I presented? Until you do, you can't expect to be taken seriously.
The very fact I disagree with you makes your statement incorrect.
See above response. I can disagree that the world is round but that doesn't somehow nullify the fact that the world is indeed round. |
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| 47. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 12:20 |
Silicon Avatar |
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The interface needs improvement and this mod is a good start.
Now I need someone to redo the game textures without just doubling the resolution and slapping on a sharpen filter...
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| 46. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 10:56 |
Verno |
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The normal interface isn't fine and Jerykk pretty much tore down any notion that it is in detail, I see no responses to anything he said other than "me likey". If you can stomach using it then enjoy, why are you stirring the pot here for people that don't like it? That's the wonderful thing about mods, no one makes you use them, they are there for the people who aren't satisfied by the default experience.
Thanks InBlack, I'll give enchanting a whirl on this dude I guess. |
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Playing: Animal Crossing, Sleeping Dogs, Tales of Graces F
Watching: Survivorman, Justified, Silent Running |
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| 45. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 10:52 |
StingingVelvet |
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Dades wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 07:41:
Yeah you're a real angel, implying that installing this is somehow a hassle and will affect stability. The 4GB launcher made my water disappear even though it is completely unrelated!! Console ownership sounds like the ticket for you.
Yes drama queen, because I think the normal UI is fine and replacing a small part of it is not worth the effort involved I should be a console gamer. I feel so ashamed of myself. |
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| 44. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 10:51 |
StingingVelvet |
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Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 03:15:
Skyrim's UI is objectively lousy.
The very fact I disagree with you makes your statement incorrect. |
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| 43. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 09:57 |
InBlack |
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On a side note I'm really loving my 2H Nord run now but I need another skill to mix things up, any recommendations? I was thinking Illusion or Conjuration.
Enchanting is really cool. Some would say its overpowered, but its not nearly in the same league as Smithing, since soultrapping actually requires some effort and large soulgems and good enchantments are hard to find. |
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| I have a nifty blue line! |
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| 42. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 09:11 |
MacLeod |
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wonkawonka wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 04:58:
And speaking of alchemy, why can't I just say "I want to make an invisibility potion" and see all the possible ingredients bolded or something?
Slightly confused here... That's pretty much how it works if you know the ingredient effects. You scroll down to "Invisibility" and it only shows the ingredients that have that effect.
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| 41. |
Re: Enhanced Skyrim UI |
Dec 19, 2011, 09:06 |
Verno |
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Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 03:15:
It's not really subjective at all. When designing menus that players will need to navigate on a regular basis, you want to ensure that navigation is as quick and efficient as possible. This is objectively not the case for Skyrim's UI. Every menu involves redundant scrolling. There's no reason why a map should require scrolling. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to see all my skills and perks without scrolling. There's no reason why I should have to spend more than 10 seconds scrolling through my potions, ingredients, books, etc. There's no reason why, given the amount of scrolling required to navigate these menus, there is no scroll bar or PgUp/PgDn/Home/End support, or the ability to sort by name, value, weight, damage, etc. There's no reason why I should have to mark an item as a favorite before I can assign it a hotkey. There's no reason why I should be limited to 8 hotkeys when my keyboard has 10 number keys.
Skyrim's UI is objectively lousy.
Exactly. There's a difference between working around something and it being efficient. This is a pretty slick implementation that's superior to Bethesda's inventory user interface. I'm not even sure why there would be debate about that either, that's been the case with pretty much every game they've made.
On a side note I'm really loving my 2H Nord run now but I need another skill to mix things up, any recommendations? I was thinking Illusion or Conjuration.
This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2011, 09:18. |
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Playing: Animal Crossing, Sleeping Dogs, Tales of Graces F
Watching: Survivorman, Justified, Silent Running |
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60 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
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