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Op Ed

Kotaku - Nerds and Male Privilege.
The idea that perhaps the way women are portrayed in fandom is aleetle sexist is regularly met with denials, justifications and outright dismissal of the issue. So regularly, in fact, that there's a Bingo card covering the most common responses. Part of the notion of male privilege in fandom is that nothing is wrong with fandom and that suggestions that it might benefit from some diversity is treated as a threat.

But what is that threat, exactly?

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83 Replies. 5 pages. Viewing page 1.
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83. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 19:43 TurdFergasun
 
women and men are generally equipped with different skills, weaknesses, and tastes. why wouldn't there be some differences that take shape similarily in society? simple question... do women actually want to see Hairy S. Manballs in the buff everywhere? probably not, so stop harping on the people that enjoy female less-hairy equivalent.

you know the world don't move to the beat of just one drum, what might be right for you, may not be right for some...... so go slap some polyglass tires on your wife's car and lets call it a day.
 
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82. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 18:17 Prez
 
So to reiterate, you perceive there to be a lack of fairness. I perceive no such lack, at least in the workplace. I guess it comes down to real life experience, which, because neither you nor I can work at all of the businesses out there to witness all the unfairness (or lack thereof) first-hand, ends up making the only evidence we can provide anecdotal.

Given that, out of all the women I know, mother, sisters, wives, friends, co-workers, not a single one of them has ever complained of any unfairness in pay or privilege. In fact, the women I know generally have better-paying jobs with more authority than the men I know. My sister is manager of her bank, my neighbor is lead pharmacist at a pharmacy where all the techs are male. There are more female managers at my job than male ones, and while the board remains predominantly male, the first woman was elected to the board a few years ago, and another is the running for another position vacated this year, so even the board room gap is disappearing from what I can see.

It's just not worth worrying about - there are way more problems that are far more serious than whether the board room contains mostly penises or vaginas. Like the vast chasm that exists between what the highest-paid and the lowest-paid employees at virtually every business in America. That number grows exponentially year on year. Now THAT could be a problem.

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2011, 21:08.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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81. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 17:12 Draugr
 
Prez wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 16:49:
Draugr:

I appreciate you are concerned above all for equal treatment for all, but in my view you are letting easily manipulated stats give you a false sense of unfairness in the workplace that simply doesn't exist, and hasn't for a very long time.

Numbers are funny things. They could be made to dance a jig, and one set of data can be used to argue a point from both sides. Stats are worse - they don't ever tell the complete story, and are almost never represented honestly when used in discussions like these.

And the finger would point the same way, I would argue that the stats were being used to give a false sense of fairness. I've avoided using stats due to this particular weakness they can suffer from, I can only think of one stat I cited, and it was to prove a point, not provide evidence of privilege.

I will certainly agree with you. I've been very careful not to get too statistic heavy for that very reason,which is the same reason I was being critical of his post to begin with. I wasn't using stats as the basis for my argument, that was someone else. I can only think of one stat which I cited, My only point in showing stats was that things were being cherry picked, so while we can see a bunch of stats supporting someones argument, there are plenty of stats that don't support it, and when bringing in stats we can run into the problems you covered. When we look at a stat, or collection thereof, and then draw conclusion such as 'priveledge doesn't exist.' Then the statistics are not being used for their intended purpose. The only conclusion we could factually draw from the stats is (for example) More men serve in the military than woman. Numbers can be misleading, and aren't the only factors when considering issues such as these.

None of the stats listed were really produced in any meaningful way, and discusses nothing of the methodology when gathering the stats, or the samples used, and far from encompass all the issues that men and women are subject to, so they are moot.
 
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80. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 16:49 Prez
 
Draugr:

I appreciate you are concerned above all for equal treatment for all, but in my view you are letting easily manipulated stats give you a false sense of unfairness in the workplace that simply doesn't exist, and hasn't for a very long time.

Numbers are funny things. They could be made to dance a jig, and one set of data can be used to argue a point from both sides. Stats are worse - they don't ever tell the complete story, and are almost never represented honestly when used in discussions like these.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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79. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 16:20 Prez
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 09:54:
It's interesting that some people here absolutely revile corporations for trying to get richer when it is something that offends them personally but it's ok when it offends anyone else.

This board, taken as a whole, has weird politics. Well, maybe just childish ones. It's almost like libertarianism, but it hates corporations.

By and large, though, this is a board unwilling to make any sacrifice and unwilling to admit anything it does is wrong. "I don't steal games, I copyright infringe, and it doesn't harm anyone." "I don't demean women or other minorities, I make jokes. They're funny and no one should be offended." Heaven forbid anyone do anything that you dislike, though, suddenly their last name is a euphemism and they should be shut down and burned at the stake,.

Stop and reflect for a second - the only thing most people on this board feel are holding them back and wronging them are corporations (or, to a lesser extent, others that feel they're being wrong.) It must be nice, then, to be that comfortable. Imagine if everyone could feel that way...

The next time you feel like spewing such a BS-filled diatribe, punch yourself really, really hard in the crotch. Maybe it will spare the rest of us the pain of actually reading it in the hope it may contain some actual substance.

You talk of "the board" as if it is some self-aware sentient intelligence instead of a collection of wildly different people with a wide array of opinions and values.

The board is not anti-corporation or pro-corporation. The people tend to fall on the side of "corporations are evil", but even then it's at most a 60/40 split. And that's not accounting for the majority of members who don't bother to share their views on such things.

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2011, 16:26.
 
Avatar 17185
 
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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78. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 16:13 Draugr
 
Morga wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 06:50:
Draugr:
Companies cannot get away with that, they could be sued for huge sums of money, and it also makes no sense at all, because if women did the exact same amount of work, worked similar amount of hours during their lives at companies, studies the same majors etc and cost less, then companies have no reason to hire male employees, if they cost more for they same work.


“If they can pay women less, why don't they just hire all women.” This argument – or some variation of it – is commonplace among anti-feminists
This argument sounds logical enough – so long as we assume that no other factors aside from the wage gap are operating. But in the real-world economy, other factors are always operating. (Curiously enough, this flawed logic can be used to “prove” not only that discrimination against women doesn’t exist, but also that racial discrimination doesn’t exist, and furthermore that neither racial nor sexual discrimination has ever existed.)

There are many reasons a workforce wouldn't/couldnt be replaced by all women, the biggest reason being discrimination. Another reason is the female workforce is not infinite; there aren’t enough women to fill all the jobs in the US currently held by men, in addition to the jobs women already have. Lets also not forget the transition costs of replacing all one’s male employees (especially in male-dominated workplaces) may well be higher than the costs of the wage gap; hiring and training new workers is very expensive. Those transition costs are even higher when you consider how unhappy and unmotivated the men will be to train their female replacements. Of course, The employer may simply be prejudiced, and thus willing to pay the extra price to avoid employing women in some positions (a conservative economist Gary Becker's, Theory). Ultimately, the employer has community relations – and customer relations – to worry about. Practicising discrimininating policies won't help those aspects.

There's various health departments for women, coalition for women and girls. Where are the male equivalents? Why is there no national coalition for men and boys? And still you believe in the fantasy that men are privileged lmao.

http://ncfm.org/ - that is the website for the National Coalition for Men, started in 1977. First hit on google when you type it in. Also the boyscouts have existed for ages, Before that (and for a while after) most institutions didn't allow women in, so most everything was a 'boys club.'

As for Health services for women, Men don't really need to go to special places to get medical care for procedures their insurance refuses to cover, (for example, terminating a pregnancy, or depending on your insurer, having access to birth control or vaccinations for HPV, just to name a few) Men don't really have anything like this because men don't have people fighting to take away their reproductive rights.

Regardless, I never said men didn't suffer, and don't suffer from sexism as well. At no point did I make that assertion. Sexism is something both Genders are subject to,and both genders participate in, both to their own gender, and to the other gender. I completely agree with you that more should be done for men in situations like those, though as to WHAT should be done, we would certainly have out differences. I would also argue that sexism plays into those institutions and orginizations like those, and the lack of their formation. The patriarchal society recgonizes that women need help, stereotypically men have always felt the need to protect their women (who once used to be property, and in some cases it's still the case)
'Women get the help because they need protection but all of us men are so strong and badass we don't need help!'

IN regards to incarcerated people being raped. It certainly an issue, one I would like to see adressed in a meaningful way. No one should be subjected to that, as they weren't sent to prison to be sexually assaulted, though some tacitly endorse it, hence the lack of reform.
I didn't count these among the rape stats i provided for a couple of reasons, the first being, I see it as an institutional problem. Since this is a demographic made up solely of men (this happens in womens prison too actually, to a smaller degree, but it applies in both sexes during inacarceration), in what is essentially a closed society with its own rules, laws, hierarchy etc. Counting it as part of the normal statistics would be misleading, as the people who are in these institutions live such a different life in there from what the average person has they need to be 'reintegrated' into society.


Regardless of how particular individuals feel, I'm glad the gaming community is finally starting to wisen up, albiet slowly.
Hopefully the threatened-by-women crowd gets weeded out.

This comment was edited on Dec 19, 2011, 16:30.
 
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77. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 15:08 FloorPie
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 12:37:
But not all "unrealistic" is equal.

You're right. Topless men are actually far more common than topless women in videogames. Arkham City has five topless, chiseled men. It has no topless sexy women. I'm going to start an online petition because this is clearly a case of female privilege.

Call it "Tits or GTFO".
 
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76. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 12:37 Jerykk
 
But not all "unrealistic" is equal.

You're right. Topless men are actually far more common than topless women in videogames. Arkham City has five topless, chiseled men. It has no topless sexy women. I'm going to start an online petition because this is clearly a case of female privilege.
 
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75. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 12:03 Verno
 
This sure was a thread Popcorn  
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Playing: Alien Isolation, Legend of Grimrock 2, Super Mario 3D World
Watching: A Good Marriage, The Knick, Gotham
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74. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 10:55 Bhruic
 

It's interesting that some people here absolutely revile corporations for trying to get richer when it is something that offends them personally but it's ok when it offends anyone else.

I know, right? How dare people actually get upset about the things they actually care about. For shame!

By and large, though, this is a board unwilling to make any sacrifice and unwilling to admit anything it does is wrong. "I don't steal games, I copyright infringe, and it doesn't harm anyone."

Really? You're saying that the majority of people here not only pirate software, but claim that it's not wrong to do so? Maybe you should look beyond the few people who make that argument to the larger community.

"I don't demean women or other minorities, I make jokes. They're funny and no one should be offended."

Sure, and by all means point out where anyone has claimed they only "make jokes" and that people shouldn't be offended. Take as long as you want to look.
 
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73. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 10:15 InBlack
 
Oh and Beamer while you are thinking about a reply here is an article that you might find interesting:

[url=LongURL]www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-van-zandt/democracy-in-america_b_1139463.html[/url]

 
Avatar 46994
 
I have a nifty blue line!
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72. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 10:11 InBlack
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 09:54:
It's interesting that some people here absolutely revile corporations for trying to get richer when it is something that offends them personally but it's ok when it offends anyone else.

This board, taken as a whole, has weird politics. Well, maybe just childish ones. It's almost like libertarianism, but it hates corporations.

By and large, though, this is a board unwilling to make any sacrifice and unwilling to admit anything it does is wrong. "I don't steal games, I copyright infringe, and it doesn't harm anyone." "I don't demean women or other minorities, I make jokes. They're funny and no one should be offended." Heaven forbid anyone do anything that you dislike, though, suddenly their last name is a euphemism and they should be shut down and burned at the stake,.

Stop and reflect for a second - the only thing most people on this board feel are holding them back and wronging them are corporations (or, to a lesser extent, others that feel they're being wrong.) It must be nice, then, to be that comfortable. Imagine if everyone could feel that way...

What?? Women being sexually dominated by men in society is a significantly older phenomenon than any corporate entity in existence. (Other than the "Holy" Catholic Church maybe). So what exactly is your point? That coporations use stereotypes to increase their profit is basically saying that fish breathe water...Please point to an example where someone said its ok to do that??
 
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I have a nifty blue line!
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71. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 09:54 Beamer
 
It's interesting that some people here absolutely revile corporations for trying to get richer when it is something that offends them personally but it's ok when it offends anyone else.

This board, taken as a whole, has weird politics. Well, maybe just childish ones. It's almost like libertarianism, but it hates corporations.

By and large, though, this is a board unwilling to make any sacrifice and unwilling to admit anything it does is wrong. "I don't steal games, I copyright infringe, and it doesn't harm anyone." "I don't demean women or other minorities, I make jokes. They're funny and no one should be offended." Heaven forbid anyone do anything that you dislike, though, suddenly their last name is a euphemism and they should be shut down and burned at the stake,.

Stop and reflect for a second - the only thing most people on this board feel are holding them back and wronging them are corporations (or, to a lesser extent, others that feel they're being wrong.) It must be nice, then, to be that comfortable. Imagine if everyone could feel that way...
 
-------------
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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70. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 09:33 InBlack
 
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah....

Sterotypes exist in entertainment and media. They exist to cater to their audience which in turns makes their producers richer.

End of story.

P.S.

This:

Federally Funded Battered Shelters [18]
Women – 2,000+ $300,000,000 per year
Men – None – $0

Is not exactly proof of female equality or superiority or dominance or anything, its just fucking sad....
 
Avatar 46994
 
I have a nifty blue line!
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69. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 08:56 netnerd85
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 08:27:
netnerd85 wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 08:24:
Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 00:03:
Bottom line: videogames are entertainment and entertainment revolves around fantasy. As a result, men are portrayed just as unrealistically as women.
Agreed.

But not all "unrealistic" is equal.
Are you thinking what I am thinking? I want to see more Penis in my video games, I don't want to have to play the Elder Scrolls to see it either.

Equality, like Perfection and Normal it's the wrong goal. They can not be measured.
 
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68. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 08:37 theyarecomingforyou
 
It's sad that there are some people that are suggesting women have a superior position in society. It only takes a quick glance at popular culture to see promiscuous women described as "sluts" or "whores", whereas guys doing the same are just "lads" or "players". And women hold a tiny percentage of the top jobs in society. And that women have a higher achievement level in schools but a greater percentage drop out before university. And that women are depicted as sexual objects in comics, computer games and TV series, the majority of which wear much more revealing clothing. And that women are sexualised in magazines, with shelves dedicated to barely clothed women - with many "newspapers" featuring topless women but none featuring topless men.

Nobody is denying that there are some advantages to being a woman, particularly an attractive one. But those advantages are offered by men in superior positions, who use it to get what they want. And to suggest that they have a superior position in society if ridiculous. And women that use sexuality to get what they want are playing into the very system that keeps them from achieving based upon their intellectual merit.

If people can't see the gender inequality in society then that is incredibly worrying... actually, downright scary.
 
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SteamID: theyarecomingforyou
Star Citizen: Blue's News
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67. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 08:27 Beamer
 
netnerd85 wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 08:24:
Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 00:03:
Bottom line: videogames are entertainment and entertainment revolves around fantasy. As a result, men are portrayed just as unrealistically as women.
Agreed.

But not all "unrealistic" is equal.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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66. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 08:24 netnerd85
 
Jerykk wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 00:03:
Bottom line: videogames are entertainment and entertainment revolves around fantasy. As a result, men are portrayed just as unrealistically as women.
Agreed.
 
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65. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 07:54 Quboid
 
That's really messed up, not being able to get care because people assume your problem only affects the other sex.

In terms of control and risk taking, I mean that men get more chances and are taken more seriously. For example, it's easier for men to get venture capital (from Business Week: "companies headed by women represented less than 7 percent of the startups funded by venture capital firms, even though women launch nearly half of all new businesses." - although this doesn't specify how many female led businesses seek venture capital).

Society in general assumes men are strong and ambitious while women need protecting, which leads to inequality that affects both genders.
 
Avatar 10439
 
- Quboid
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64. Re: Op Ed Dec 19, 2011, 07:50 Dev
 
Quboid wrote on Dec 18, 2011, 14:06:
Too late, I ate the cookie.

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/

That depiction of Starfire (who I'd never heard of before, I don't read comic books) is what I mean about turning me - target demographic - right off.
Since I don't read much comics, I didn't know about the DC reboot until I overheard a friend talking about it recently. Then I went to google some info on it, and one of the first links I found was about starfire:
Text for your Link
I thought the comments were surprisingly insightful and profound considering the source.
 
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