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CD Project vs. File-Sharers Follow-up

Eurogamer has a statement from CD Projekt to the report that they are sending letters to those accused of pirating The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings. While restating their strong feelings about not using DRM, they clarify that this does not mean they are okay with their game being stolen:

However, that shouldn't be confused with us giving a green light to piracy. We will never approve of it, since it doesn't only affect us but has a negative impact on the whole game industry.

We've seen some of the concern online about our efforts to thwart piracy, and we can assure you that we only take legal actions against users who we are 100 per cent sure have downloaded our game illegally.

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50 Replies. 3 pages. Viewing page 1.
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50. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 21, 2011, 15:59 Kosumo
 
So when USSR spy took photos of the atomic bomb plans they where not 'stealing' secrets due to the plan still being their?

It seem to me that people will just do what they want and don't want to hear that other people have a problem with it.

Once again, why are people not supporting CDProject trying to defend their income stream?

The 'I pirate then pay' group are saying that CDProject are a group of people who make entertament for free that you can contribute to if you wish - is that right?

It's like that concert I used earlier, but that you can buy a ticket and watch the show or you can watch the show and then pay what you want after. (This would work, but you would see a change in the concert industry away form expensive show to much more stripped down low risk affairs. - NO MORE LADY GAGA STADIUM SHOW FOR ANYONE) <--- Ok, I now talked myself into liking that idea.
 
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49. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 19, 2011, 16:52 Bhruic
 
I'm arguing that the law needs to be changed to reflect the change in technology

Argue that all you want. But the laws haven't been changed, which means that you are, at present, using the word incorrectly. Should the law actually be changed, then by all means, use the word "stealing". Until then, you remain wrong.
 
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48. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 19, 2011, 16:36 Beamer
 
Bhruic wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 16:32:
But you are stealing. I'm talking about morally here, not legally.

And that is why no one gives a fuck what you think. There is no such thing as a moral definition of stealing. You're simply using the word "stealing" because it has stronger overtones than copyright infringement does. Admit that and move on.

Sure there's a moral definition. I'm arguing that the law needs to be changed to reflect the change in technology.

It isn't the only law I'd argue needs to be changed due to changes in technology. Most of these laws were written long before computers admitted. Admit that and move on.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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47. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 19, 2011, 16:32 Bhruic
 
But you are stealing. I'm talking about morally here, not legally.

And that is why no one gives a fuck what you think. There is no such thing as a moral definition of stealing. You're simply using the word "stealing" because it has stronger overtones than copyright infringement does. Admit that and move on.
 
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46. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 19, 2011, 14:14 Beamer
 
Bhruic wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 10:59:
I'm comfortable calling that stealing.

You can be "comfortable" calling it whatever you want, but you're still mislabeling it. Now I don't really care about the labels personally, but at the same time, words have definitions for a reason, and you're using the wrong one.

Oh, and it's worth pointing out - copyright infringement is a civil matter, stealing is a criminal one. The reason that people get sued is because they can't be charged with a crime. If downloading and playing a game actually was stealing, people would be seeing jail time for doing it. And they aren't.

Copyright infringement laws are mostly written from a time when it was impossible to actually steal something copyrighted without stealing something physical, so the laws were created around manufacturing and distributing, not around using.
Things have changed and the laws need to, and will, change with it.

Keep in mind, however, that you're stealing a game worth $50 or less, so it isn't like the cops will be breaking down your door. But you are stealing. I'm talking about morally here, not legally. You're taking something that someone else is selling without paying for it.


 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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45. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 19, 2011, 10:59 Bhruic
 
I'm comfortable calling that stealing.

You can be "comfortable" calling it whatever you want, but you're still mislabeling it. Now I don't really care about the labels personally, but at the same time, words have definitions for a reason, and you're using the wrong one.

Oh, and it's worth pointing out - copyright infringement is a civil matter, stealing is a criminal one. The reason that people get sued is because they can't be charged with a crime. If downloading and playing a game actually was stealing, people would be seeing jail time for doing it. And they aren't.
 
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44. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 19, 2011, 09:49 Beamer
 
Bhruic wrote on Dec 19, 2011, 09:35:


Same thing with gaming. You aren't stealing anything, unless you are going to a store and walking out with a DVD. You are, however, making use of the company's copyright without permission.

Disagreed. You're right, creating something with someone else's work is copyright infringement.
Pirating a game is not is more open to argument. "Piracy" refers to copyright infringement for distribution. It stems from people making bootleg phonographs or the like and selling them as their own. So if you were to download Skyrim and sell it you'd be pirating it (and, if you look at lawsuits, they always target distribution, not use. They get people unwittingly using peer-to-peer and uploading it to others as they download.)

But for personal use? Not to distribute but to enjoy? I'm comfortable calling that stealing. You're not really infringing on a copyright, you're enjoying something you did not pay for.

 
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Music for the discerning:
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http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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43. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 19, 2011, 09:35 Bhruic
 

Can someone explain to me the diffence between stealing and copyright infringement then?

Stealing is taking something that doesn't belong to you without permission.

Copyright infringement is making use of someone else's copyright work without permission.

People focus on the software side of copyright a lot, but it's not the only area of concern. For example, Disney has a copyright on Mickey Mouse. If you draw a cartoon and put Mickey Mouse in it, you are performing copyright infringement. Now, I don't think anyone in their right mind would suggest that if you drew a cartoon with Mickey Mouse in it, that you have stolen anything from Disney. The paper is yours, the pen is yours. You just don't have a legal right to use the image.

Same thing with gaming. You aren't stealing anything, unless you are going to a store and walking out with a DVD. You are, however, making use of the company's copyright without permission.
 
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42. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 17, 2011, 15:14 Kosumo
 
Can someone explain to me the diffence between stealing and copyright infringement then?

What your stance on this action by CD Project then.
 
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41. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 17, 2011, 12:41 TheVocalMinority
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 17, 2011, 00:47:
Yet you haven't explained how taking someone else's work without paying for it isn't stealing.

Probably because it wasn't my original point, which you have again demonstrated by attempting to reframe some arrangements you don't like using emotive language (essentially another straw man).

 
Assley Putz
"Was vocalminority assley putzs most recent handle?"
-nin May 16, 2012, 10:52
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40. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 17, 2011, 11:16 shponglefan
 
I don't blame CD Projekt for doing what they're doing. The reality of copyright law (such as it is) is it's mostly a civil affair, so it's up to companies to go after pirates.

If there were stronger laws/legal enforcement, then this wouldn't be necessary.
 
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39. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 17, 2011, 00:47 Beamer
 
Yet you haven't explained how taking someone else's work without paying for it isn't stealing.  
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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38. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 16, 2011, 22:27 TheVocalMinority
 
Beamer wrote on Dec 16, 2011, 08:17:
TheVocalMinority wrote on Dec 16, 2011, 08:02:
Prez wrote on Dec 15, 2011, 17:34:
And for the love of peace and superman, can we please agree to accept that "stealing" is an acceptable colloquialism concerning copyright infringement even if it is technically incorrect? Talk about an absolutely pointless discussion.

An "acceptable colloquialism" to who? Stealing is a very emotive term and referring to copyright infringement as stealing is an attempt to influence the debate by creating an false equivalence between the two.

"I'm not stealing, I'm just like, borrowing it, man."


Steal:
a: to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully



Yes, you're stealing.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about, with the nice flourish of an ad hominem straw man thrown in.
 
Assley Putz
"Was vocalminority assley putzs most recent handle?"
-nin May 16, 2012, 10:52
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37. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 16, 2011, 08:17 Beamer
 
TheVocalMinority wrote on Dec 16, 2011, 08:02:
Prez wrote on Dec 15, 2011, 17:34:
And for the love of peace and superman, can we please agree to accept that "stealing" is an acceptable colloquialism concerning copyright infringement even if it is technically incorrect? Talk about an absolutely pointless discussion.

An "acceptable colloquialism" to who? Stealing is a very emotive term and referring to copyright infringement as stealing is an attempt to influence the debate by creating an false equivalence between the two.

"I'm not stealing, I'm just like, borrowing it, man."


Steal:
a: to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully



Yes, you're stealing.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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36. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 16, 2011, 08:02 TheVocalMinority
 
Prez wrote on Dec 15, 2011, 17:34:
And for the love of peace and superman, can we please agree to accept that "stealing" is an acceptable colloquialism concerning copyright infringement even if it is technically incorrect? Talk about an absolutely pointless discussion.

An "acceptable colloquialism" to who? Stealing is a very emotive term and referring to copyright infringement as stealing is an attempt to influence the debate by creating an false equivalence between the two.
 
Assley Putz
"Was vocalminority assley putzs most recent handle?"
-nin May 16, 2012, 10:52
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35. Re: CD Project vs. File-Sharers Follow-up Dec 16, 2011, 06:16 InBlack
 
Bhruic wrote on Dec 16, 2011, 03:56:
As an idle aside, I wonder if developers/publishers would be happy if they completely eliminated piracy (speaking theoretically, of course), but doing that didn't increase sales at all. Ie, in a hypothetical world, piracy completely stops, but everyone who pirated stuff still doesn't buy it (or buys it under the same conditions they would have had they pirated it).

Would they be satisified with having no pirates, despite no more sales than they otherwise would have seen? Or would that be considered a failure, because they'd only be happy if they could get more sales?

This is a very good question, sadly it will remain in the domain of other philosophical questions since there is no way to definitively measure the impact of piracy on sales.

My best educated guess is that depends on a case to case basis. For example a relatively unknown indie publisher that releases a very good game, but without the proper funds to finance a strong marketing campaign could even GAIN sales if the game is shared among a large number of people and the asking price is low compared to other aaa titles.

On the other hand a very BAD game with a substantial PR marketing campaign and a huge hype buildup might lose a significant number of sales due to bad word of mouth, in case of a (pre)release day build leak.

In the end I think the lesson that all developers need to learn is that piracy is like a force of nature. You cant really fight it, you have to learn to live it and in the end its all about the quality of the game you produce. Build the best damn game you can and it will be a success.
 
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I have a nifty blue line!
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34. Re: CD Project vs. File-Sharers Follow-up Dec 16, 2011, 03:56 Bhruic
 
As an idle aside, I wonder if developers/publishers would be happy if they completely eliminated piracy (speaking theoretically, of course), but doing that didn't increase sales at all. Ie, in a hypothetical world, piracy completely stops, but everyone who pirated stuff still doesn't buy it (or buys it under the same conditions they would have had they pirated it).

Would they be satisified with having no pirates, despite no more sales than they otherwise would have seen? Or would that be considered a failure, because they'd only be happy if they could get more sales?
 
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33. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 16, 2011, 01:00 Jerykk
 
If the music industry is any indication, suing your customer base and/or forcing them to settle for ridiculous sums of money for downloading a $50 digital product is a terrible, terrible strategy.

This. People can continue arguing semantics all they want but the fact is, suing your customers or potential customers doesn't exactly generate a lot of good will towards your company. Are they within their rights to sue? Sure. However, just because you're allowed to do something doesn't mean you should.

That aside, their actions are a bit contradictory. On the one hand, they claim that they don't believe in DRM because it's useless and won't stop piracy. On the other hand, do they honestly believe that suing a few people will be any more successful? The RIAA and MPAA have shown that lawsuits do not make piracy disappear. For every 10 pirates you sue, thousands will continue pirating without hesitation. They'll do this because they know that you can't possibly sue every single pirate in existence and the likelihood of them getting caught is practically non-existent.

If you want to reduce piracy, offer a better product and/or service than the pirates. When I buy a movie from a store, I shouldn't be forced to sit through unskippable legal warnings (which are completely pointless) and trailers before I can watch the actual movie. When I buy a game, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops just to install and play it. Steam is so successful because it's actually easier than piracy. People tend to be more generous with their money if it's convenient to do so.

This comment was edited on Dec 16, 2011, 01:07.
 
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32. Re: The Humble Indie Bundle #4 Dec 15, 2011, 22:12 Jivaro
 
Prez wrote on Dec 15, 2011, 20:14:
@Yuastnav and Jivaro:

It's not that I don't agree that, technically speaking, "theft" is not the most appropriate word here; however my point remains that it doesn't make a cunt hair's worth of difference. Even whether you think piracy is wrong in all cases or it isn't is largely irrelevant. The fact is people who aren't bad, vile, or evil do it, and there are wildly varying solutions to dealing with it ranging from reasonable to ludicrous (the category under which CD Projekt's behavior documented here falls).

I'll buy that.
 
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31. Re: CD Project vs. File-Sharers Follow-up Dec 15, 2011, 21:40 Prez
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Dec 15, 2011, 21:00:
... who the hell would pirate from CD Project? If there is anyone that actually DESERVES our money, it is them.

I totally agree. I imagine it would be largely two types - habitual pirates (people who pirate everything just because) and try-before-you-buy types. I generally don't have a problem with the second type, as long as they buy it if they like it.
 
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Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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