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Morning Previews

  • The Elser Scrolls V: Skyrim on GameInformer. Thanks Acleacius.

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23. Re: Morning Previews Oct 29, 2011, 22:17 jimnms
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Oct 29, 2011, 11:45:
Personal opinion here, of course, but repairing weapons is never fun, in any game, to me. Regardless of whether it's supposed to be survival horror or 'old school' rpg or whatever, it just takes me away from doing the fun stuff, to do a menial, repetitive chore.

I'm glad there is no repair (still none, right?) in Skyrim.

I personally like having things degrade and needing repairs or maintenance, it makes the game more imersive. But Jerykk has a point, it's usually poorly implemented which is why it usually becomes a chore. In reality, if you get into a sword fight, your sword is going to get dinged up and your armor will get damaged. You should either need the right skill level, tools and a work bench to do it yourself or have to take it to a black smith and pay him to do it.

Fallout New Vegas came close to getting it right. I liked how weapons and armor didn't lose effectiveness until they degraded below a certain point. The ability to craft weapon repair kits was a nice alternative to repairing them with an identical item based on your repair skill. However, it was poorly implemented. First they made it so that you could repair any weapon or item to 100% condition at any repair skill, you just need more items to repair with at lower skill. Second, with enough repair kits, anyone could repair any weapon to 100% condition. The repair kit was made with six pounds of components, yet once crafted the repair kit only weighed 1 pound.

It could have been done better if they had left the repair skill more like Fallout 3 where you can only repair up to a certain condition based on your skill and also made repair kits only repair up to a certain condition based on your repair or weapon skill or both. And finally make repair kits weigh more.
 
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22. Re: Morning Previews Oct 29, 2011, 19:47 Jerykk
 
Personal opinion here, of course, but repairing weapons is never fun, in any game, to me. Regardless of whether it's supposed to be survival horror or 'old school' rpg or whatever, it just takes me away from doing the fun stuff, to do a menial, repetitive chore.

The process of repairing stuff itself isn't particularly enjoyable, but the consequences of having degradation does add depth to the combat and force you to role-play.

A lot of game mechanics aren't particularly enjoyable in and of themselves. The mechanic of trading with a merchant or looting a container, for example. Or using a health kit. Or reloading your weapon. Or running out of ammo. Or taking damage. Or dying. However, what's important are the consequences of these mechanics and how they affect the experience as a whole. If a mechanic adds depth or challenge to a game, I tend to appreciate it. If a mechanic adds nothing or detracts from a game, I want it removed. Bethesda's implementation of degradation was flawed but instead of fixing it, they just removed it entirely, Bioware-style.
 
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21. Re: Morning Previews Oct 29, 2011, 14:09 xXBatmanXx
 
I really liked that "How to be a bastard" preview that was posted this past week. I will read this one later. Can't get enough info about this game - super excited. sans the crappy UI.  
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20. Re: Morning Previews Oct 29, 2011, 11:45 MoreLuckThanSkill
 
Jerykk wrote on Oct 29, 2011, 02:06:
That's a nice idea, but it doesn't work in practice because you get metric tons of "repair hammers", so degradation becomes utterly meaningless and nothing more than a chore.

That's a problem with implementation, not the concept of degradation itself. If they wanted to make degradation more meaningful, they could just remove the hammers and force you to repair your stuff at workbenches, ala Dead Island. Or they could make the hammers very rare. Or some combination of the two.

People are too quick to dismiss concepts and mechanics based on poor implementations, even when the fundamental ideas behind them are solid. Degradation can add a lot of depth to a game, as long you implement and balance it properly. Sadly, Bethesda sucks at all things pertaining to balance.

Personal opinion here, of course, but repairing weapons is never fun, in any game, to me. Regardless of whether it's supposed to be survival horror or 'old school' rpg or whatever, it just takes me away from doing the fun stuff, to do a menial, repetitive chore.

I'm glad there is no repair (still none, right?) in Skyrim.
 
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19. Re: Morning Previews Oct 29, 2011, 02:06 Jerykk
 
That's a nice idea, but it doesn't work in practice because you get metric tons of "repair hammers", so degradation becomes utterly meaningless and nothing more than a chore.

That's a problem with implementation, not the concept of degradation itself. If they wanted to make degradation more meaningful, they could just remove the hammers and force you to repair your stuff at workbenches, ala Dead Island. Or they could make the hammers very rare. Or some combination of the two.

People are too quick to dismiss concepts and mechanics based on poor implementations, even when the fundamental ideas behind them are solid. Degradation can add a lot of depth to a game, as long you implement and balance it properly. Sadly, Bethesda sucks at all things pertaining to balance.
 
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18. Re: Morning Previews Oct 29, 2011, 00:14 Creston
 
Jerykk wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 23:19:
Except weapon and armor degradation actually promotes tactical combat. If you're using a low durability weapon, you'll want to focus on calculated, high-damage strikes, like backstabs, and if you have a low durability armor, you'll want to avoid getting hit altogether. Conversely, if you high durability weapons and armor, you can just wade into battle. As such, degradation adds long-term consequences to the choices you make in battle.

That's a nice idea, but it doesn't work in practice because you get metric tons of "repair hammers", so degradation becomes utterly meaningless and nothing more than a chore.

Creston
 
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17. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 23:19 Jerykk
 
Kastagir wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 20:00:
At least in Fallout3 you didn't see bandits climbing out of the sewers in full glass/daedric armor and weapons (or whatever the FO3 equivalent would be - raiders in power armor and gatling lasers?).

Actually, I did see a raider with a gatling laser. I think it was only once, though. On the other hand, I also saw Super Mutants with sticks, which is equally ridiculous.

The removal of weapon/armor degradation is welcome, since it always felt like it was only there to justify the armorer skill.

Except weapon and armor degradation actually promotes tactical combat. If you're using a low durability weapon, you'll want to focus on calculated, high-damage strikes, like backstabs, and if you have a low durability armor, you'll want to avoid getting hit altogether. Conversely, if you high durability weapons and armor, you can just wade into battle. As such, degradation adds long-term consequences to the choices you make in battle. Unfortunately, this didn't work very well in Oblivion because of the level scaling. Once you reached the higher levels, it took you like 10 minutes of spamming attacks to kill a basic goblin.

On an unrelated note, I'm really surprised they haven't combined the Light Armor and Heavy Armor skills into a single Armor skill yet. They've basically done that with weapons and attributes. I'm guessing they'll do it in the next game.

This comment was edited on Oct 28, 2011, 23:36.
 
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16. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 20:00 Kastagir
 
At least in Fallout3 you didn't see bandits climbing out of the sewers in full glass/daedric armor and weapons (or whatever the FO3 equivalent would be - raiders in power armor and gatling lasers?).  
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15. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 19:32 MoreLuckThanSkill
 
Creston wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 19:05:
Obsidian hired Jorge Oscuro, the guy who made Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, one of the most popular leveling fixes for Oblivion. And I think his handywork is fairly evident in the game, in that it's set up almost exactly the same way as Oblivion. Stick to the roads, and you're safe, but start straying and you'll get your ass handed to you in a hurry.

Ah, I did not know this. Good to hear that Oscuro's hard work got him gainful employment... I enjoyed the hell out of Fallout:NV compared to Oblivion(which I still have yet to finish, been bored to quitting a few times).

*EDIT* Obligatory: wait, is this the new card game from the Minesweeper guy?
 
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14. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 19:05 Creston
 
jimnms wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 16:45:

I prefer the way New Vegas does it over Fallout 3 where certain level creatures populate certain areas, so trying to venture to certain places early on is asking for death.

Obsidian hired Jorge Oscuro, the guy who made Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, one of the most popular leveling fixes for Oblivion. And I think his handywork is fairly evident in the game, in that it's set up almost exactly the same way as Oblivion OOO (my bad.) Stick to the roads, and you're safe, but start straying and you'll get your ass handed to you in a hurry.

Sadly, New Vegas' map was really too small to do that kind of setup justice. One moment you're in Coyote territory, and three steps further and suddenly, bam, there's a giant radscorpion feasting on your corpse.

Creston

This comment was edited on Oct 28, 2011, 22:59.
 
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13. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 19:04 Tumbler
 
Gameinformer hunh? I'm done here.  
99gamers.com-Game trading site, PC digital trading!
Kickstarter "Game Developer"!
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12. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 16:45 jimnms
 
Creston wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 15:34:
Not in the zones all near you, no. If you ventured out far enough at low level, you could run into (admittedly low level versions) of Deathclaws or Super Mutants, which generally tended to make your life fairly miserable.

New Vegas basically didn't scale. It just put bad shit in out of the way areas, and if you were foolish enough to walk there, a Ghoul Reaver would come and show you why little peons like you should stick to the main road.

The only places I can think of that were dangerous for a low level character in Fallout 3 were the deathclaw infested Old Olney and the scripted super mutant behemoth encounter west of the Jury Street Metro. FO3 seemed weird that fresh out of the vault you could wander around at level 2 and only run into molerats and bloatflies, but when you level up and wander the same areas you start seeing yao guai, deathclaws and giant radscorpions.

I prefer the way New Vegas does it over Fallout 3 where certain level creatures populate certain areas, so trying to venture to certain places early on is asking for death.
 
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11. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 15:34 Creston
 
jimnms wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 15:26:
Creston wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 13:13:
PHJF wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 13:08:
So is this going to have the same stupid-ass leveling system that punishes players who don't want to grind for 5/5/5 stats?

No. It'll feature a system similar to Fallout 3's. It'll kill you if you wander into a high-end zone too early (as it should), but if you're of medium level and you go back to an easy zone, you'll lay waste to everything in there. (as you should.)

Creston

Do you mean Fallout New Vegas? Fallout 3 scaled the world to the player. You would never see anything spawn in the wasteland that could easily kill you (deathclaws, giant radscorpions, etc.) at early levels.

Not in the zones all near you, no. If you ventured out far enough at low level, you could run into (admittedly low level versions) of Deathclaws or Super Mutants, which generally tended to make your life fairly miserable.

New Vegas basically didn't scale. It just put bad shit in out of the way areas, and if you were foolish enough to walk there, a Ghoul Reaver would come and show you why little peons like you should stick to the main road.

I hope they've gone a bit further than FO3 in the leveling, but at least it's not like Oblivion where a bandit would try to stick you up for 100 gold while wearing full Daedric Fucking Armor worth 40,000 gold.

In any case, eh, if the leveling sucks, give it one week and a mod will fix it.

Creston
 
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10. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 15:26 jimnms
 
Creston wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 13:13:
PHJF wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 13:08:
So is this going to have the same stupid-ass leveling system that punishes players who don't want to grind for 5/5/5 stats?

No. It'll feature a system similar to Fallout 3's. It'll kill you if you wander into a high-end zone too early (as it should), but if you're of medium level and you go back to an easy zone, you'll lay waste to everything in there. (as you should.)

Creston

Do you mean Fallout New Vegas? Fallout 3 scaled the world to the player. You would never see anything spawn in the wasteland that could easily kill you (deathclaws, giant radscorpions, etc.) at early levels.
 
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9. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 15:17 Kastagir
 
The removal of weapon/armor degradation is welcome, since it always felt like it was only there to justify the armorer skill. Smithing does so much more, so I'm glad it's gone. The removal of attributes has me somewhat worried, but I suspect there will be sufficient depth to character development to make them unnecessary. Every leveling mod effectively removed attributes as something you needed to worry about, so move to make them fully hidden or behind the scenes is welcome, if done well and not simply a "streamlining" feature for the consoles.  
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8. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 13:30 Alamar
 
PHJF wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 13:08:
So is this going to have the same stupid-ass leveling system that punishes players who don't want to grind for 5/5/5 stats?

Was just talking to a friend about this yesterday...

Lots of uproar about the TES system (was it Oblivion?) where mobs were always your level... But so many other games do this, and no peep... And ya, I mentioned that it was likely because you could gimp yourself, but not knowing you needed to do stupid things, like jump around in circles for 5 minutes, to make sure you had a stat/skill worth picking at level up...

Anyhow... I barely played the game... Which is actually true of every TES; I've played them all, but barely heh...

I may look into Skyrim... But currently, there is no hype...

-Alamar
 
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7. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 13:13 Creston
 
PHJF wrote on Oct 28, 2011, 13:08:
So is this going to have the same stupid-ass leveling system that punishes players who don't want to grind for 5/5/5 stats?

No. It'll feature a system similar to Fallout 3's. It'll kill you if you wander into a high-end zone too early (as it should), but if you're of medium level and you go back to an easy zone, you'll lay waste to everything in there. (as you should.)

Creston
 
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6. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 13:08 PHJF
 
So is this going to have the same stupid-ass leveling system that punishes players who don't want to grind for 5/5/5 stats?  
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5. Re: Morning Previews Oct 28, 2011, 12:49 Kastagir
 
I'll skip this - don't need to see a video of guys blabbing about stuff that's already been disclosed. http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Skyrim is more informative.  
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4. Re: fags Oct 28, 2011, 12:39 space captain
 
that shit is GAY

its fucking GAY
 
Go forth, and kill!
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