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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 10.
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70. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 01:10 RamataKahn
 
The funny thing is, other and better game companies can and do design games for both PC and console and guess what? They work.


Carmack is a dick and id software is dead.
 
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69. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 01:09 Jim
 
id's heyday is long over. They can keep their console crap. I won't be buying it.  
Jim
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68. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 01:05 PHJF
 
The problem is, unexplored ideas in graphics are largely about nuance and making a believable simulation, which is something no one is interested in doing; you can't put "better immersion" as a bullet point on the box the same way you can't put anti-aliasing there, so it never gets done.

LA Noire did exactly that, to positive effect.
 
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Steam + PSN: PHJF
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67. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 01:03 KilrathiAce
 
EddieTheHack wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 00:59:
The money is in consoles for several genres of games. That PC development still gets AAA SKU's at all is almost amazing right now.

Good point and I have no problems with it as long as company dont try to put price tag on PC half assed version same as consoles. ID Software unfortunately put 60 bucks price on PC version which is just slap in the face. You may want to call PC gamers trolls and flaming but when ID software insults me with such price tag for a product thats clearly not developed properly for PC then what do you expect.
 
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"On 2646.215 I myself attacked & destroyed TCS Tiger's Claw in my Jalthi heavy fighter"
Bakhtosh Redclaw Nar Kiranka
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66. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 01:02 StingingVelvet
 
The only issue I have with his comments is that very often the PC outsells the PS3 version in shooters and RPGs. Worldwide sales taken into account, of course.  
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65. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:59 EddieTheHack
 
mlw wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 00:34:
Carmack: "We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games,"

Me: I don't see id as a leading developer for games. In fact, far from it.

Here is the difference though: id: shipped genre defining titles, created the technology powering the most successful franchise(s) in the history of gaming, and has exerted more influence on vendors than another single company. you: random troll on the internet who's opinion proves how far up his own ass he can get his empty head.

PC is the leading tech platform - but PC's are an open ecosystem and much harder to develop effectively on. More power means more complexity means longer development cycles and higher costs. In the world we live in today, money is what matters to companies. The money is in consoles for several genres of games. That PC development still gets AAA SKU's at all is almost amazing right now. It's a mine field filled with a bunch of pathetic, rage filled, forum trolls who constantly rage about everything because its not how they would have done it. All hail the glorious PC master race - drowning in its own self loathing.
 
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64. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:54 KilrathiAce
 
Dear Carmack,

Based on your statements you don't view PC platform or development for it as much of an importance yet you still want to charge same amount of money for PC version of the game as consoles. You cannot have it both ways sir. Kthx and in future dont release half assed version of the games.

Further, looks like ID Software finally is hitting the retirement moment, as you havent released any games since doom 3 and this project is really low quality compared to previous projects. As a long PC gamer I am highly dissapointed to see ID Software unable to make a good PC Game or even engine anymore. Sad moment.
 
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"On 2646.215 I myself attacked & destroyed TCS Tiger's Claw in my Jalthi heavy fighter"
Bakhtosh Redclaw Nar Kiranka
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63. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 00:49 HorrorScope
 
If there is one gaming question that has eluded me forever it's the video driver one. The say a lot of issues were because of video drivers. Well pray tell what drivers were they using when testing and developing? They obviously weren't developing on a future version never released. I don't get it. I just don't. It's as if Nvidia and AMD have to fix developer issues, obviously if you are doing something in development with a driver and it's not working, you make the change on your end before you release and thus you don't have to pray for a driver update.  
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62. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:42 Jerykk
 
He's a game designer; he enjoys making great games.

Technically, he's a programmer, not a designer. Actually, I think his official title is Technical Director, which mean he primarily focuses on engine-side programming, rather than gameplay programming.
 
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61. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 00:40 CannibalBob
 
Well it's nice and all for id to come out and say this stuff (ok, it's not all that nice at all), but the real question here is:
Will they fix the game? Should we expect patches, and to what extent? Are they still dedicated to the PC, or should we expect the same story for Doom 4?

All I've seen so far is them point fingers at the video drivers - How come other games have gotten along fine with those drivers? Did they never test the game on the PC? Why did they never talk with the driver makers (nvidia, ati) and get this stuff sorted out before hand? Did they give nvidia/ati a preview copy of Rage and work with them?

It's a pity; if Rage had a smooth launch, the video card manufacturers would've made more money (people buying new cards due to good game reviews), and obviously id would make more in sales. Simply saying "oh the PC isn't leading anymore" and then not trying anymore definitely guarantees the PC will stay in that state.

Why is Carmack talking about audiences anyway? Why does he care? He's a game designer; he enjoys making great games. It's obviously the upper management who gave him orders for the design direction, and he has to follow that. I'm not blaming Carmack for anything - he's just doing as ordered. The issue is obviously a lack of testing; it was the upper management who decided "yeah, this game was tested enough and is ready for release. No, we don't need to delay the PC release and put more resources into fixing it."
 
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"If you like it, they will stop making it" - Herblock's Law
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60. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:38 ^Drag0n^
 
I think he fully understands the the PCs potential--he even remarks on that in the quote.

He's just confirming what most have known for years: it's hard developing on for a PC: API constraints, endless permutations of hardware configs, unknown myriad of other softwware running concurrently: it's much easier to code for a closed ecosystem--you know what hardware and software will be running. Always. Its the same thing that makes iOS development so enticing to a programmer.

Honestly? I probably wouldn't have a problem with it if MS added a mouse, browser, and a keyboard. But that will never happen.

While I'm disappointed he's taking this position, I get it.
 
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"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
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59. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 00:37 crypto
 
Consoles Rule!!! Mwuahahahaha... MWWUUAAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!!  
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58. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 00:34 mlw
 
Carmack: "We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games,"

Me: I don't see id as a leading developer for games. In fact, far from it.
 
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57. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 00:29 ThatMonkey
 
This is John Fucking Carmack telling us we're doomed. SO disappointed in game industry trends lately, but this takes the cake... id Software practically invented the first person shooter AND modern PC gaming, and even they have no support for the cause. That's not just harsh, that's cruel. 10 times the power, better and more varied control schemes, infinitely more freedom, and how many games take full advantage of that these days? Extremely few if you ask me.

This may seem like I'm dwelling on the past but I think it's the true turning point: as far as I'm concerned PC gaming could be on top if Microsoft didn't decide to make a console. Xbox should have been a PC gaming initiative with software much like Steam and hardware much like an XBox as a MINIMUM spec. Instead they chose to make a closed box with nothing but an analog control pad, and this is the true end result. Dicks. All but ruined gaming as far as I'm concerned.

John Carmack just doesn't see the potential in the PC because it's been overshadowed by Microsoft's console push for so long. It has more potential though, much more.
 
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56. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:27 Creston
 
^Drag0n^ wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 00:14:
I think the courier missions give you race tickets too (?)

May be wrong.

Well, I guess I'll find out.

Creston
 
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55. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:25 Creston
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 00:16:
Half-Life 2? I seem to recall having my 9800 and having problems with HL2 at launch, which was ironic since there was the whole "developed for ATI" promo.

I switched to an nVidia card shortly after and never had drivers problems again.


No, HL2 ran fine for me, though I didn't get around to playing it until like four months after it was launched. And I may have had an Nvidia card at the time anyway.

I tend to switch between the two based on who delivers the most power for the least amount of noise. And noise was a major issue with Nvidia for quite awhile until the second generation Fermi cards came out, and they apparently finally realized that not everybody enjoys having their card sound like a vacuum cleaner.

Creston
 
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54. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:18 The Pyro
 
Had they contacted NVIDIA and ATI 6 months ago, I wonder if these problems would be here now.

Knowing how closely Carmack has worked with GPU vendors in years past, I would be extremely surprised if either nVidia or ATI had not been informed several months prior about driver issues affecting Rage. My guess is that nVidia and ATI had plenty of advance but were slow to deliver fixes, and id was forced to decide whether Rage should be released on schedule - hoping that driver updates would be available by launch date.

All of the above is pure speculation, but I know Carmack has mentioned working closely with both vendors in the past to address driver issues.
 
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53. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:16 Krovven
 
Half-Life 2? I seem to recall having my 9800 and having problems with HL2 at launch, which was ironic since there was the whole "developed for ATI" promo.

I switched to an nVidia card shortly after and never had drivers problems again.

 
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52. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:14 ^Drag0n^
 
I think the courier missions give you race tickets too (?)

May be wrong.
 
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"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
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51. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 00:10 Creston
 
^Drag0n^ wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 23:32:
Reading Creston's experience with ATI makes me really glad I stuck with nvidia

(sorry man <g> )

It's fine.

I've only ever had... three games that were a huge issue with AMD. KOTOR, Rage (both OpenGL), and I can't quite remember the third.

I've had one game that would never work on an Nvidia card (That RTS that also got turned into a book, about the US being invaded. Act of War?)

In general AMD works just fine, but their OpenGL support is worthless. Again, though, the driver they released today seems to have fixed all my issues. It now runs smoothly, and I'm finally able to do some races, which are quite fun.

However, I didn't buy rockets, and now the only races I have left open are rocket races, and I don't have the Flags to buy rockets. Errr... So, I'm fucked?

And can someone tell me how to assign quick items to a car BEFORE a race?

Creston
 
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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 10.
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