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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 12.
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30. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 23:16 swaaye
 
Fortunately I have both a recent Radeon and a GeForce in the house. The game doesn't run so hot on the Radeon and it also tends to be unstable. The GTX 560 on the other hand really runs it very well and is bulletproof.

And I do like the game. It's not some mind blowing genre bending transcendental experience but it is a good time.
 
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29. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 23:15 cronik
 
I'm glad I held out on this, I'll pick it up when it's cheap and fixed  
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28. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 23:11 Parallax Abstraction
 
Here's my problem with the whole driver argument Carmack is making. This largely spawned from a discussion had on today's Tested.com podcast. While I obviously had to pay for my video card and it is the chip manufacturer's job to keep it supplied with drivers, in the case of RAGE, I paid id for it, not NVIDIA or ATI. It's id's job to ensure that their brand new engine works properly and if that requires special driver considerations, it's their responsibility to contact NVIDIA and ATI and get that done before the game comes out. If they called these companies and said "John Carmack would like to talk to you to make sure id Tech 5 works with your cards", they'd probably have their lead drivers engineers on the phone with him instantly. There is absolutely no excuse for drivers not being ready for this game that was in development for 6 years well in advance of launch. For Carmack to claim it's all the video chip maker's faults when he apparently made no effort to loop them in on his tech is ridiculous.

Frankly, I see this as a potential failing of their Zenimax acquisition. Bethesda hasn't put out a game I can think of that didn't have major launch problems and this seems to be the latest one. They seem to have an aversion to setting realistic release dates and sticking to those no matter what, even if the products clearly aren't ready yet. As someone who gave my money to them and no one else for RAGE, I think it's perfectly fair to put this bad launch on their shoulders. Had they contacted NVIDIA and ATI 6 months ago, I wonder if these problems would be here now.
 
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27. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 23:08 DangerDog
 
Really unfortunate that the game had such a horrible launch, it's not a deep game but there's always fun in well made mindless shooters. This is just an "action movie" variety shooter experience, popcorn in one hand, mouse in the other.

Personally I blame their inability to add manual overrides to their "automated" graphics setting decider routines - not so much on video driver issues, at least for me.

At least they didn't lock-out custom tweaking through the use of a .cfg file, from combing over a few threads on the Steam forums I've managed to get the game to look and play in a state worthy of praise on both the gameplay and the graphics.

Nvidia 285GTX running beta 285.38 drivers, Q6850, 4 gig ram, Win7 64

Not even close to being top of the line and I can run the game with 8k textures just fine at 1920x1080.

seta com_videoRam "1024" //sets the Video Card memory Set this to the amount you have in MB
seta com_maxfps "60" //limits the frames to 60 can be changed to what you desire
seta image_anisotropy "4" //Using the highest setting here but you can set as 2, 4 or 8
seta image_usecompression 0
seta image_filter "GL_LINEAR_MIPMAP_LINEAR" //filtering for light maps
seta image_preload "1" //Use preload images when ever possible
seta image_lodbias "-1" //LoD settings
seta image_ignoreHighQuality "0" //Sets up for using HQ gfx
seta image_ignoreLowQuality "1" //ignores the low textures
seta image_useCache "1" //Enabled Cache to allow the textures to load properly without popping
seta image_cacheMegs "125" //Cache size in Megabytes
seta image_cacheMinK "50" //Cache minimum size in kilobytes
seta r_swapInterval 1 //VSYNC 1 enabled, 0 diabled
seta r_useHighQualityPostProcess "1" //Fore High Quality post proccessing
seta r_shadowsHighQuality "1" //Fore High Quality shadows
seta r_displayRefresh "0" //keep it so the engine doesn't double render a frame
seta r_renderer "best" //highest rendering options
seta r_multiSamples "8" //Set this to 16 or 8 if you're having low-fps as 32 is the Max Multi-sampling
seta r_useHBAO "1" //Ambient occlusion
seta r_useRenderThread "1" // 0 Disable or 1 Enable threaded rendering useful for newer cards to increase performance.
seta r_visDistMult "1"
seta r_useMotionBlur "0" //use blur
seta r_skipBump "0"
seta r_skipSpecular "0"
seta r_skipNewAmbient "0"
seta r_shadows "1"
seta r_cgFragmentProfile "best"
seta r_cgVertexProfile "best"
seta vt_lodBias "-1" //LoD settings
sera vt_maxPPF 1 // This setting is suppose to be much higher but 1 works best for me
//below is cache settings
seta vt_pageimagesizeuniquediffuseonly2 "8192"
seta vt_pageimagesizeuniquediffuseonly "8192"
seta vt_pageimagesizeunique "8192"
seta vt_pageimagesizevmtr "8192"


my command line launch tweaks are basic: +set com_skipIntroVideo 1 +g_fov 5

Best of luck to those having problems, once you get it working right it really is a good game.

Time to go bash some more mutants in the wasteland!










This comment was edited on Oct 7, 2011, 23:14.
 
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26. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 23:00 Elricsi
 
Teddy wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:46:
"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games"

Translation: We'll release it on PC and charge as much as we possibly can for it, but we don't really care if it works.

Fuck you too, Carmack. Fuck you too.

That is the feeling I got from the quote too. (And I agree it is smart to design for the consoles first and foremost on action games.)

But I want to see if they really go ahead and release some HD levels for PC only, and I will be happy with that.

P.S. General consensus seems to be that the shooter gameplay is meh, but vehicles are suprising fun. I hope they focus their DLC efforts on the vehicle stuff.
 
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25. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:46 Teddy
 
"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games"

Translation: We'll release it on PC and charge as much as we possibly can for it, but we don't really care if it works.

Fuck you too, Carmack. Fuck you too.
 
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24. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:44 Creston
 
sxotty wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:16:
Creston wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:11:
"We knew that all older AMD drivers, and some Nvidia drivers would have problems with the game, but we were running well in-house on all of our test systems."

What a bunch of fucking horseshit. I guess all your test-sytems then had NO driver on it that was available to the public at launch? Because nobody with an AMD card had a driver that actually just FUCKING WORKED. So what kind of driver did you have installed? One made with unicorn giggles and fucking fairy dust?

Four straight days of fighting with your shitty fucking console port just to try to get it to look the way it's supposed to and to run well. Yeah, it's all AMD's fault, Carmack.

Creston

All your geniuses don't seem to understand reality. AMD gave id a driver. id tested the driver to see how it would work. Then AMD released the wrong driver to the public. Ingenious.

Yes. And since then, AMD has released two MORE wrong drivers to the public, right? Because they just can't figure it out. Rolleyes Okay, Todd Hollenshead.

Edit : In fairness, after installing the latest AMD driver AND restoring the 8192 tweaks, it seems as if the texture flickering is finally gone. Hurrah.

Creston
 
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23. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:43 Capella
 
xXBatmanXx wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:34:
Why not make the PC the leading platform - isn't it easier to DUMB DOWN the game than to make it better after it is so shitty for a console?

Makes no sense. Wish I had never bought it.

I won't buy anymore of their games after his statements.

Agree 100% on both statements. Never thought id would shit on the PC market like this.
 
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"Yeah everyone's gotta have the sickness
Cause everyone seems to need the cure"
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22. Unforgettable vs Instantly forgettable Oct 7, 2011, 22:43 JohnBirshire
 
Congrats id, you made unforgettable games for the PC over the years, and then this new instantly forgettable and unremarkable console game. Keep up the good work in this fantastic new groundbreaking direction!  
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21. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 22:38 mlw
 
Carmack: "A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

Me: Inferior product means no buy for me.

A pity, both my son and I were looking forward to purchasing this game. Now, forget it.
 
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20. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 22:34 xXBatmanXx
 
Why not make the PC the leading platform - isn't it easier to DUMB DOWN the game than to make it better after it is so shitty for a console?

Makes no sense. Wish I had never bought it.

I won't buy anymore of their games after his statements.
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
Playing: New dad
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19. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:32 Overon
 
RAGE sucks and no amount of driver issues is going to fix the fundamental GAME DESIGN PROBLEMS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GRAPHICS.

If RAGE is any indication, John Carmack and id can just go over exclusively to the console market and PC gamers will not be worse off. Let's just face reality: After years of development id's newest game is so full of terrible design decisions that graphics issues are just the icing on the shit cake.

But I have to give props to Carmack for being so honest about id's failure so soon after the game is released, of course he can only talk about the graphical failures not the game design failures, they are not his fault.
 
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18. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:30 TurdFergasun
 
working well for me, but followed the instruction in the steam/rage forums on setting up a cfg file with notepad and saving it in the rage/base folder. game looks better and v hard to view texture pop in now. very enjoyable, and immersive game when it's not shitting the bed.  
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17. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:22 qsto
 
Creston wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:12:
qsto wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:07:
It really puzzles me how this game could've been a cluster!@#$ release on PC, as I understand the issues were related to ATI cards only. Is the entire PC community running ATI nowadays?

Anyways, I've had a zero problems with Rage. On my 2500k box it runs a solid 60fps @2560x1600 on a measly GTX460 1GB. Only thing I hate about the engine is its streaming nature. Despite utilizing almost all my vram, it still grinds my HDD all the time when moving forward. Even if I take just one step forward on a cramped interior like the Subway Town, it trashes my hdd.

Where does it even need vram, if it streams everything straight off the disk?

Did you create the cache folder? You know, the one that Carmack's brilliant installer FORGOT to install?

Creston
Actually, yes I did. I usually tend to check forums for any useful tweaks before I start playing a new game.

My launch options are currently +cvaradd g_fov 20 +com_allowconsole 1 +com_skipIntroVideo 1 +fc_maxcachememoryMB 1024. But besides that, there's a shit ton of tweaks people are adding into their rageConfig.cfg. I tried some of them and my game practically stalled below 1fps. I've got 8GB of ram. Go figure...
 
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16. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:16 sxotty
 
Creston wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:11:
"We knew that all older AMD drivers, and some Nvidia drivers would have problems with the game, but we were running well in-house on all of our test systems."

What a bunch of fucking horseshit. I guess all your test-sytems then had NO driver on it that was available to the public at launch? Because nobody with an AMD card had a driver that actually just FUCKING WORKED. So what kind of driver did you have installed? One made with unicorn giggles and fucking fairy dust?

Four straight days of fighting with your shitty fucking console port just to try to get it to look the way it's supposed to and to run well. Yeah, it's all AMD's fault, Carmack.

Creston

All your geniuses don't seem to understand reality. AMD gave id a driver. id tested the driver to see how it would work. Then AMD released the wrong driver to the public. Ingenious.
 
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15. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:13 Fibrocyte
 
Shrug... I'm still playing Rage and am really enjoying it.  
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14. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:12 Creston
 
qsto wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:07:
It really puzzles me how this game could've been a cluster!@#$ release on PC, as I understand the issues were related to ATI cards only. Is the entire PC community running ATI nowadays?

Anyways, I've had a zero problems with Rage. On my 2500k box it runs a solid 60fps @2560x1600 on a measly GTX460 1GB. Only thing I hate about the engine is its streaming nature. Despite utilizing almost all my vram, it still grinds my HDD all the time when moving forward. Even if I take just one step forward on a cramped interior like the Subway Town, it trashes my hdd.

Where does it even need vram, if it streams everything straight off the disk?

Did you create the cache folder? You know, the one that Carmack's brilliant installer FORGOT to install?

I'm sure that's also just a driver fault, isn't it, John? I'm sure that on your test-boxes at id, the cache folder got installed just fine?

Creston
 
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13. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 22:11 Creston
 
"We knew that all older AMD drivers, and some Nvidia drivers would have problems with the game, but we were running well in-house on all of our test systems."

What a bunch of fucking horseshit. I guess all your test-sytems then had NO driver on it that was available to the public at launch? Because nobody with an AMD card had a driver that actually just FUCKING WORKED. So what kind of driver did you have installed? One made with unicorn giggles and fucking fairy dust?

Four straight days of fighting with your shitty fucking console port just to try to get it to look the way it's supposed to and to run well. Yeah, it's all AMD's fault, Carmack.

Creston
 
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12. Re: id On RAGE Oct 7, 2011, 22:09 Krovven
 
Im back to trying for a refund again as the new drivers today still did not fix the AMD 4000 series missing textures.

Edit: typo

This comment was edited on Oct 7, 2011, 22:50.
 
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11. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 7, 2011, 22:07 qsto
 
It really puzzles me how this game could've been a cluster!@#$ release on PC, as I understand the issues were related to ATI cards only. Is the entire PC community running ATI nowadays?

Anyways, I've had a zero problems with Rage. On my 2500k box it runs a solid 60fps @2560x1600 on a measly GTX460 1GB. Only thing I hate about the engine is its streaming nature. Despite utilizing almost all my vram, it still grinds my HDD all the time when moving forward. Even if I take just one step forward on a cramped interior like the Subway Town, it trashes my hdd.

Where does it even need vram, if it streams everything straight off the disk?
 
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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 12.
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