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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 5.
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170. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 17:37 Ray Marden
 
Heh - as if my fingers can ever correctly type what is in my head.
There are literally times where I skip entire words I said in my head.
Off to make another edit ,
Ray
 
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169. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 17:35 Ray Marden
 
The new drive is actually causing me far more issues than the earlier one did.

I went from having flickering flags to having some flags becoming overly bright, NPCs that stutter/flicker, random textures through the world being fully lit, and issues with the ammo compnent of my guns floating above the actual weapon. /fail

Performance seems better, but it is a visual downgrade. However, they seem to be working for some people so it may be a model/OS issue.

Not feeling a burning desire to stop playing other games to play Rage,
Ray Which basically means that it is mediocre.
 
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168. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 17:19 DNForever
 
If you don't care about of PC gaming, then why are you posting? There is no need for you to be here.

I guarantee they'll fix the drivers. As long as there's been games on the computer, there have been driver issues, but it's very suspect for it to happen right when the game ships. I admitted that I haven't had problems with the game so all the name calling was pretty inappropriate, dude.
 
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167. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 17:18 Krovven
 
It's quite sad really. Deus Ex, Dead Island, Rage, Red Orchestra 2, BF3 Beta game launches...these are all indicative for the state of PC Gaming.

Only game I recall getting recently that hasn't had a bad launch was Bastion.

Played Deus Ex today for the first time in a few weeks, and seems to have finally been fixed with a combination of the last patch and the new AMD Rage video drivers. I can finally play, even with SSAO on High and everything else maxed at 1080. Very few hitches etc.

Dead Island was broken for 5 days with the wrong build and disabled coop servers.

Red Orchestra 2, various problems, too many to name, culminating in an achievements and stats reset. It was needed, but should never have had to happen.

Rage, so many problems and still ongoing.

When does it end?

 
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166. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 17:07 Krovven
 
DNForever wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 17:03:
No, I just don't care. At all. I hope you don't get a refund, then cry about it for weeks and get mad and post on here. I look forward to reading it.

If you don't care about of PC gaming, then why are you posting? There is no need for you to be here.

 
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165. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 17:03 DNForever
 
I'm sorry, but you say you can't see all sides because you don't have an ATI card. Are you completely fucking retarded that you cannot sympathize with those that do?

No, I just don't care. At all. I hope you don't get a refund, then cry about it for weeks and get mad and post on here. I look forward to reading it.

 
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164. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 16:59 Brutal
 
"...who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues."

i mean...why the f%?& did they release a game without testing it properly!?
Carmack : "bah game testers are too expensive lets just test the pc version on one computer."

greedy bastards...
 
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163. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 16:48 AnointedSword
 
Maybe instead of getting offended we should listen to the man's words. The bottom line is you are not helping anyone when you pirate a game. Not even yourself.  
If you were right, I would be agreeing with you.
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162. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 16:08 Creston
 
Ray Marden wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 14:34:
Why am I helping them by going on a merderous rampage?

I love the word merderous. It's the ultimate combination of Murderous and Merde, which sums up my feelings towards id quite nicely.

Creston
 
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161. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 16:04 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 13:31:
Also, Carmack was saying this since the reveal. We had more than a few quotes from Carmack that said "the PC is far more powerful than consoles" that some people loved to quote, ignoring that he kept following that with "but we're having a much easier time getting 60 fps on the consoles."

If I make Rage look like it does on the 360, I have no problem WHATSOEVER maintaining 60fps. It's not that hard to get 60fps with textures that look like they were made in 1997.


On a sidenote, anyone playing with the ATI driver that came out yesterday? It fixed the texture flickering in Wellsprings for me, but now it's fucking up the mutants in the Bash TV part.

Creston
 
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160. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 15:58 KilrathiAce
 
At first we were shocked why such PC ID software game after long development could turn into such garbage, but now Carmack explained why its so. Now that everything is clear, I suggest stop chatting about this game and play something worthy.  
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Bakhtosh Redclaw Nar Kiranka
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159. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 15:40 Johnny L
 
You should also look up words before you use them. Dichotomy - division into two mutually exclusive, opposed, or contradictory groups. To claim a false dichotomy implies that a person believes in both a positive and negative of something. When someone only states a single view, it's not a dichotomy, it's a viewpoint. The only way a dichotomy exist is if you assume there is an opposing view, which would make it your viewpoint not theirs, so once again the false dichotomy would be on your part for an assumption. Putting words in people's mouth or making assumptions only shows your own ignorance.  
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158. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 15:35 Johnny L
 
It must be nice to live in your little bubble where you're right and the world is wrong. A pity that isn't reality. It's called an opinion, look it up some time. You're entitled to your opinion, it doesn't make you right. And the fact that you have to insult anyone who opposes your view shows how childish you are about the possibility of being wrong.  
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157. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 15:27 Bhruic
 
People in companies may care a great deal, but the bottom line is that stock holders usually don't, executives don't unless it affects their bonus. The ones running the company care about money, regardless of how the designers may feel and the ones in charge call the shots.

Well, you're wrong. So apparently my "big bad companies" assumption was correct after all. There are quite a few examples of stock holders and executives that are interested in more than simply money.

Companies want to make money. They can and do put everything second to that.

The first one is most often true, but the second one is not. Are there companies for which it's true? Certainly. Is it true for all of them? Certainly not.

I absolutely agree that most companies have a majority of employees that care, but the COMPANY does not.

A "Company" isn't an actual individual, so sure, if you want to be pedantic about it, yes, it can't actually care about anything. But, then, it also can't care about making money.

And speaking of false dichotomies, to stand on the grounds of I'm right/you're wrong puts you squarely in the crosshairs of hypocrisy to your own complaint about everyone else having a false dichotomy.

You're joking, right? It's hard to believe that someone could actually put forth that argument seriously. But on the offchance you are that foolish, my comment was about false dichotomies. If I'm making an argument that contradicts yours, there is nothing false, it's a true dichotomy.
 
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156. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 14:59 Johnny L
 
No matter how it's justified or rationalized, at the end of the day, the bottom line is that companies do not care about customers, they only care about profit.


A common complaint, but not one based in reality. Everyone likes to pull the "big bad company" line, but it's a half-truth at best. Do companies want to make money? Of course, I doubt there are many, if any, companies that want to go out of business. They need money to survive. But (again with the false dichotomies), it's not an "either/or" situation. It's entirely possible to both want to make money, and care about your customers.


Funny, I never said once in my post anything about a "big bad company", but nice, if inaccurate, assumption. People in companies may care a great deal, but the bottom line is that stock holders usually don't, executives don't unless it affects their bonus. The ones running the company care about money, regardless of how the designers may feel and the ones in charge call the shots. Companies want to make money. They can and do put everything second to that. Staying is business is more important then making customers blissful. I absolutely agree that most companies have a majority of employees that care, but the COMPANY does not. Companies are business entities designed to net profit, if they can do so and still achieve customer satisfaction, great, but at the end of the day, it's about the almighty dollar. And speaking of false dichotomies, to stand on the grounds of I'm right/you're wrong puts you squarely in the crosshairs of hypocrisy to your own complaint about everyone else having a false dichotomy.
 
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155. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 14:53 Animals for Crackers
 
Maybe id should re-hire Romero.

Sorta ironic how his re-acquisition could do nothing but help id software's gamer cred at this point, isn't it? It's like we've come full circle, or something. I think I'm getting dizzy just thinking about it.

 
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154. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 14:51 Johnny L
 
Ah but the key is objectivity. It IS all about money, is it cost effective to fix a game, is it worth pursuing the customer satisfaction at the cost of profit. People can assume and twist words as much as they like but companies exist to make money. If other considerations can factor in with minimal loss to profit, they pursue it. Otherwise they don't. As much as people complain about never buying the game again, they only represent a small portion of the people complaining. Most will gripe and still buy the next game that's made. Companies know this, more often then not they just ride out the bad press.  
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153. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 14:36 Krovven
 
DNForever wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 12:39:
Maybe I'm not seeing all sides because I don't have an ATI card, but I find it hard to share all this anger.

I'm sorry, but you say you can't see all sides because you don't have an ATI card. Are you completely fucking retarded that you cannot sympathize with those that do? Apparently you are since you make the comment..

You have to just detach yourself from it all. Play the game or not, like them or not. Then get on with your shit.

They have my $60. It's been 5 days and I CAN'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME!
So if you want to give me $60 back, then fork it over. Otherwise, shut the fuck up since you are incapable of recognizing that thousands of people are completely incapable of playing the game.

 
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152. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 14:34 Ray Marden
 
I will pick up Hard Reset on discount some day, but it is really linear and, for wanting to be a straight foward shooter, the emphasis on using the environment to kill enemies slows down the action.

In a lot of ways, the game feels full of contradictions. Let's try to have a lot of things to shoot at...but let's put them in a small area. Let's put a low limit on the number of weapons they can have...but then make them turn into various different versions. Let's try to make a detailed world...but remove any real exploration or story. Let's just make a pure shooter...but let's group of herds of enemies so you can use the environment against them.

Back to Rage, I bashed Doom 3 as a failure, but Rage is actually going to be the point in time that id gave up. On a technical front, things can be pretty, but Carmack has no appreciation for consistency - he thinks it is fine to have tearing, have parts of the world change in front of your eyes, and does not want PC gamers to have configuration control over the game. To have this many issues on both sides of the GPU market for a game that has been in development this long is just sad.

Though the game can be pretty, it has not blown me away. More than that, even when it does look quite good, the mish mash of texture resolutions mars the overall experience. The constaint limitations on exploration (weak jumping, invisible walls, confined areas) just reinforces how little the player is given. It's sad that the 360 degree map has to highlight the little portions of the game you are actually allowed to play in. Given how small some of these levels are, it further detracts from any visual achievements (that's all I get for this small area???)

As for the gameplay, it is a simple shooter and nothing else. If something rushes me, I just use my shotgun, else everything just stays behind cover and I can just snipe with my pistol. Why the poor weapon interface? Why are there invisible walls even in the confined quest zones? Why can't I loot the weapons and ammo that the hostile NPCs had? Crafting the same few items over and over and over and over is tedious and adds nothing to the simple shooter gameplay - screw it, I will not even bother unless I have to. Why can't I even loot those NPCs at all? What was the story again? Why do I care about these people? Why am I helping them by going on a murderous rampage? How many times will they reuse the same level? Why does it take three direct shots to the head to kill this guy? Why does this remind me of Fallout and Borderlands? Why include the vehicle portion at all when it exists just to get you to the next limited, confined quest zone?

And screw the whole PC versus console thing. A gaming PC is vastly superior to a five year old console, but I understand why companies may focus on the consoles as their target tech level. But that does not explain why the vastly superior platform has so many rough edges or, with the bar being set so low, why it is not incredibly polished. Tech aside, this doesn't explain what the hell this company was doing for all this time. Carmack was working on the engine - I get that. But what were the designers and the rest of the team doing?

It is a sometimes nice looking game marred with various obvious graphical tradeoffs. On the gameplay front, it is a really stupid shooter that is not particularly unique, deep, fast, action packed, or fun. But it is a straight forwarded shooter.
That took how long to make???
Stating this is when id just stopped caring,
Ray

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2011, 17:40.
 
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151. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 14:10 shponglefan
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:13:
Shrug... I'm still playing Rage and am really enjoying it.

Blasphemer!
 
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