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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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190. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 21:15 siapnar
 
Yea that's absolutely bogus  
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189. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 21:11 Creston
 
siapnar wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 21:03:
I read this too fast and thought you were talking about driving in deus ex

Hehe. Not really a lot of room to drive in either city.


Btw, patch for Rage is up. It's massive, seems to be well over 400MB if my "time remaining" gauge is to be believed. It just went from 1hr 20 mins to 16 mins, so it's not THAT large. Probably 80-100 megs or so. Adds graphics options, v-sync and some other stuff. Here's a snippet that confuses me from the update news section, though.

When VSync is turned ON you should not see screen tearing. However, any time your frame rate drops below 60 frames per second you will get a sudden more severe drop to 30 frames per second. This is how VSync inherently works.

Errr, wot? If this is how Vsync inherently works, then why do I never have that problem in every other game except Just Cause 2? For that matter, why do I not have this problem in RAGE itself when I force Vsync through the CCC? Confused

Creston
 
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188. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 21:10 siapnar
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 20:28:

Dmitri you seem to be nothing more than a shill and apologist for shitty devs. Keep on trucking loser.
Christ you're bitter.

Really didn't see any comments made by him that would warrant the one you just made... I just saw valid points of discussion
 
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187. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 21:03 siapnar
 
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 18:38:

Not that I disagree, but what was wrong with Deus Ex?


Btw, I just played the mission they had in one of their trailers, where you have to take out the bandits who make the car bombs, and it was a really awesome mission. Just the right amount of bandits, cool setting, great gunfights.

And I'm really enjoying the driving parts. Heck, I kinda wish they'd just made a whole game about the driving.

Haven't seen any more texture flickering except for the Bash TV part, so hopefully it was a one-off.

Creston
I read this too fast and thought you were talking about driving in deus ex
 
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186. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 21:02 Creston
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 20:38:
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 18:38:
Not that I disagree, but what was wrong with Deus Ex?

Deus Ex also had AMD driver problems causing a lot of stuttering. It wasn't completely unplayable at launch, but it is something that was only fixed with the last patch and drivers. There was also the mouse sensitivity problems, crashes using AMD cards, diagonal movement was faster than walking forward, loads were very slow. Edit: The game was virtually unplayable with SSAO on at launch.

Deus Ex Patch info

Huh, I guess I got lucky as I never had any of those issues. In fact, I keep looking at Deus Ex as an example of a port done well. Only thing I had was the very slow loading times, but they fixed that in two days, so eh.

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185. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 20:38 Krovven
 
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 18:38:
Not that I disagree, but what was wrong with Deus Ex?

Deus Ex also had AMD driver problems causing a lot of stuttering. It wasn't completely unplayable at launch, but it is something that was only fixed with the last patch and drivers. There was also the mouse sensitivity problems, crashes using AMD cards, diagonal movement was faster than walking forward, loads were very slow. Edit: The game was virtually unplayable with SSAO on at launch.

Deus Ex Patch info

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2011, 20:56.
 
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184. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 20:31 DNForever
 
That was a good mission. A tip for the boss you're about to fight in dead city - shoot the rockets at the blue lights. Only use rockets against him also.


Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 18:38:
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 17:18:
It's quite sad really. Deus Ex, Dead Island, Rage, Red Orchestra 2, BF3 Beta game launches...these are all indicative for the state of PC Gaming.


Not that I disagree, but what was wrong with Deus Ex?


Btw, I just played the mission they had in one of their trailers, where you have to take out the bandits who make the car bombs, and it was a really awesome mission. Just the right amount of bandits, cool setting, great gunfights.

And I'm really enjoying the driving parts. Heck, I kinda wish they'd just made a whole game about the driving.

Haven't seen any more texture flickering except for the Bash TV part, so hopefully it was a one-off.

Creston
 
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183. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 20:28 Krovven
 
Dmitri_M wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 18:12:
Sure but the games you mentioned weren't all completely unplayable.

So only if games are completely unplayable at launch is where we should draw the line?

BF3 is a beta, it is a horrible beta. Anyone that knows anything about what alpha and beta means to software development, knows the BF3 beta technically is not even an alpha.

Dmitri you seem to be nothing more than a shill and apologist for shitty devs. Keep on trucking loser.

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2011, 20:57.
 
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182. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 20:21 Mr. Tact
 
I'm not in favor of pirating, nor have I participated in it. And if you are blaming piracy for poor PC game sales, you are either uninformed or a suit towing the company line.  
Truth is brutal. Prepare for pain.
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181. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 20:19 Slashman
 
CJ_Parker wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 19:58:
Nah Carmack's just smart. He's going where the money is. While PC gamers prefer to steal their games and waste everyone's time making up all sorts of shit excuses for it, publishers are raking in the big dow selling to the much less piracy-crippled console market.
If people want shit to change then they need to go back to buying their PC games instead of stealing them. As is always the case with this sort of thing people expect other people to move first and in the end no one moves. Except the world. It keeps on turning and it's turning in favor of the stronger console markets.

I know exactly what the replies to my post will look like. There'll be the same tired ol' arguments in favor of piracy. Sure. Go ahead and let it all out.
But anyone arguing against what I stated above is only in denial of the truth. A truth that people like Carmack, Yerli, Muzyka & Zeschuk, and many other leading heads of former PC power houses have long realized.


Yeah...I'm thinking that Valve and CD Projeckt don't actually count for anything. Neither does Bioware's success with Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect on the PC.

I'd like someone to explain why some companies can seem to make a very tidy profit with PC focused development and others claim they can't.

I'm not justifying piracy...I'm just genuinely curious how you explain these companies and the success they have with their titles in an environment that is rife with piracy and no one is buying games anymore. Because by your logic...it should be impossible to make a decent profit from PC gaming.

I'm curious what your take is on companies that do well in the market. Are they cheating?
 
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180. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 19:58 CJ_Parker
 
Nah Carmack's just smart. He's going where the money is. While PC gamers prefer to steal their games and waste everyone's time making up all sorts of shit excuses for it, publishers are raking in the big dow selling to the much less piracy-crippled console market.
If people want shit to change then they need to go back to buying their PC games instead of stealing them. As is always the case with this sort of thing people expect other people to move first and in the end no one moves. Except the world. It keeps on turning and it's turning in favor of the stronger console markets.

I know exactly what the replies to my post will look like. There'll be the same tired ol' arguments in favor of piracy. Sure. Go ahead and let it all out.
But anyone arguing against what I stated above is only in denial of the truth. A truth that people like Carmack, Yerli, Muzyka & Zeschuk, and many other leading heads of former PC power houses have long realized.

 
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179. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 19:57 Omni
 
Another random gaming industry excuse for another bullshit release.

SHOCKING!

If it isn't pirating is console's either way they find a black sheep rather that just saying that they failed at making something that would work proper.

They can blame nothing but them self for people pirating there games and this will continue until they change they fucking weak attitude and make a fair fucking deal for everyone.

I liked Carmack but now he's just blowing smoke up our arse.
 
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178. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 19:54 Beamer
 
Johnny L wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 14:59:
if they can do so and still achieve customer satisfaction, great, but at the end of the day, it's about the almighty dollar.

Buddy, companies exist to survive.
If you keep pissing off your customers you will not do that. Companies like id, Bethesda, Valve, etc., make decisions based upon making money. Smart companies know that happy consumers are repeat consumers, so they do anything feasible to make consumers happy, to an extent.

Their "greed" more often than not results in a better, more entertaining product for you. Unless there's no real benefit for them, as in the good will and added sales will cost more than they can afford.
 
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177. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 18:52 Paketep
 
It's sad to see Carmack like this. YOU fucked up, man up and admit it.

It seems that every company that decides to sell to consoles ends up rotting, and blaming PC for it. Shame on you, id.
 
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176. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 18:43 saluk
 
AnointedSword wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 16:48:
Maybe instead of getting offended we should listen to the man's words. The bottom line is you are not helping anyone when you pirate a game. Not even yourself.

Where does pirating come into it? I do not believe that pirating is the main cause that pc is a bad platform for games.

Case in point: RAGE. Why is RAGE bad on the pc? Not because of pirating, not because id developed with consoles as a lead platform. The main reason it is bad on the pc is drivers. If ID can have a host of in-house systems and put a lot of work into making a good pc game, release it, and STILL have 50% of their buying audience have a game that doesn't work, it's like what's the point? Developing for pc costs more, is more frustrating, and pays less, and on top of that you go to a torrent site and see all of your hardwork being taken advantage of. Yes piracy is a factor, but it's more like the straw that broke the camels back.

It's a bit convenient to blame yet another bad pc port on mis-configured drivers by a third party, but it's not like it's rare for ATI to release drivers that f**k up a game.
 
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175. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 18:38 Creston
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 17:18:
It's quite sad really. Deus Ex, Dead Island, Rage, Red Orchestra 2, BF3 Beta game launches...these are all indicative for the state of PC Gaming.


Not that I disagree, but what was wrong with Deus Ex?


Btw, I just played the mission they had in one of their trailers, where you have to take out the bandits who make the car bombs, and it was a really awesome mission. Just the right amount of bandits, cool setting, great gunfights.

And I'm really enjoying the driving parts. Heck, I kinda wish they'd just made a whole game about the driving.

Haven't seen any more texture flickering except for the Bash TV part, so hopefully it was a one-off.

Creston
 
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174. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 18:12 Dmitri_M
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 18:02:
There is no excuse for having a game unplayable at launch for large numbers of users on common setups. It shouldn't even be acceptable to say "we'll patch it shortly after release", particularly when it prevents people from playing at all.


Sure but the games you mentioned weren't all completely unplayable.

Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 17:18:
It's quite sad really. Deus Ex, Dead Island, Rage, Red Orchestra 2, BF3 Beta game launches...these are all indicative for the state of PC Gaming.

And BF3 is a beta so one might expect problems?
 
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173. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 18:02 Krovven
 
Dmitri_M wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 17:45:
Technical issues don't bug me as much as bland game design.

I can't participate in a discussion about Rage's game design, because I can't get the game to a playable state! Technical trumps design when the technical problems prevent you from even playing the damn game.

There is no excuse for having a game unplayable at launch for large numbers of users on common setups. It shouldn't even be acceptable to say "we'll patch it shortly after release", particularly when it prevents people from playing at all.

 
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172. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 17:45 Dmitri_M
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 17:18:
It's quite sad really. Deus Ex, Dead Island, Rage, Red Orchestra 2, BF3 Beta game launches...these are all indicative for the state of PC Gaming.

Technical issues don't bug me as much as bland game design. Post release patching is fine if the game shows signs of being created with passion.

The industry is throwing money into artistic resources and little else. A bunch of artists handed some concept sketches, executing it, then a bunch of designers string it together into a "game".
 
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171. . Oct 8, 2011, 17:41 Ray Marden
 
Edit: Double post.  
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