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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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210. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 00:02 Creston
 
Ray Marden wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 23:34:
If you can wait, you will get more bang for your buck by waiting for the end of year update - you can either go into a whole new line or buy one of the "old" cards at a discounted rate.

The 6950 is a good step up (20%?) from the 5850, but I upgraded because my wife needed a new system - she took my system at the time and I build a new system. At the time, the 6950 was the best sub-$300 (single) card available.
Just like how I'll probably be giving her the 6950 when the new ones ship.
Waiting for Skyrim to wash out the bitterness of Rage,
Ray

Yeah, I think I'll do that. And I'm with you on Skyrim. God, the 11th of November can't come soon enough.

Creston
 
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209. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 23:36 theyarecomingforyou
 
Ray Marden wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 22:34:
Yes, with v-sync disabled, the screen refreshes as much as it can whether it'a a full or partial (tearing) update.

But enabling v-sync does not cut your framerate in half - the game simply refreshes the entire screen as often as it can.

If you have a slower computer, v-sync probably does make the overall experience more smooth, albeit with a sh*t ton of tearing. However, I would gladly take a v-sync experience equivalent to 40hz, 50hz or 58hz instead of capping the game's framerate to 30 FPS.
V-Sync doesn't work like that. It works by synchronising the framerate to the refresh rate of your monitor. Therefore if you have a 60hz monitor - like 99% of monitors out there - then you have to either sync to 60hz or 30hz, as otherwise you'll have incomplete frames. You can't pick an arbitrary figure like 40hz, as then you'd be rendering 1.33 frames for every frame the monitor displays. By dropping to 30fps you get one frame for every two cycles of the monitor, eliminating the tearing but halving the framerate. There is a technique called triple buffering that goes some way to minimising the framerate drop but I find that it makes games feel less responsive (it's an option for L4D2 if you want to try it out).

Now they've added a Smart option that basically syncs the game to 60hz whenever it can but if the performance drops it accepts a bit of tearing, much of which you probably wouldn't even notice if your framerate doesn't drop below 60fps that often.

Don't forget, when we're talking about dropping to 30hz that's only momentarily - as soon as the framerate is above 60fps it goes back to 60hz. It might only be for a fraction of a second but some people notice it more readily than others.
 
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208. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 23:34 Ray Marden
 
If you can wait, you will get more bang for your buck by waiting for the end of year update - you can either go into a whole new line or buy one of the "old" cards at a discounted rate.

The 6950 is a good step up (20%?) from the 5850, but I upgraded because my wife needed a new system - she took my system at the time and I build a new system. At the time, the 6950 was the best sub-$300 (single) card available.
Just like how I'll probably be giving her the 6950 when the new ones ship.
Waiting for Skyrim to wash out the bitterness of Rage,
Ray
 
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207. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 23:21 xXBatmanXx
 
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 21:34:
Aaaaaand the patch has made the game absolutely unfuckingplayable. I get probably a frame every 5 seconds now.

Fantastic. Thanks, John. You're a goddamn fucking champion.

Steam forums rife with people for whom the patch made things a fuckton worse. A few who say it fixed stuff. Large majority it either completely broke the textures, or can't even run anymore.

I can't even play. I can't get out of the bar. It takes a minute for the screen to update a single fucking frame.

I reckon this patch got tested on their in-house testing equipment again. Well done, id. Truly, job well done.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCKKKK


Edit : Somehow got it working again. Deleted all cfgs and startup options, still wouldn't work. Turned off Vsync in driver. Still wouldn't work. Turned off CCC AI. Still wouldn't work. In a fit of aptly named rage, fiddled with every fucking option in existence, and now it runs...

Patch still broke Vsync, though. You can try to switch it On or Smart in the video panel, it doesn't do anything.

Christ what an incredible clusterfuck of a launch.

Creston

I turned it on and it quit tearing. I dont have a smart option - cause I have a dumb computer.
 
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206. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 23:20 xXBatmanXx
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 22:43:
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 22:37:
Patch allows for ultra-spectacular new visuals! :p

Haggar's place never looked better!

Check out the details on those sunglasses!

LOL. Yep, just like Dmirti said, ignoring major technical problems and dealing with it in post-release patches sure is acceptable.


HOLY CRAP!

The only big issue I am having is the blur from turning to fast. Otherwise I can' complain TOO much. Other than the game is pretty lackluster....it is a rails shooter that is for sure!
 
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In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. / Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder.
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205. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 23:14 sxotty
 
Creston wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:44:
Yes. And since then, AMD has released two MORE wrong drivers to the public, right? Because they just can't figure it out. Rolleyes Okay, Todd Hollenshead.

Edit : In fairness, after installing the latest AMD driver AND restoring the 8192 tweaks, it seems as if the texture flickering is finally gone. Hurrah.

Creston


I am glad it is working for you.

The thing is we don't know what percent of the fault lies where, but it is 100% clear AMD screwed up by releasing the wrong driver originally. The most horrid stuff was fixed with the correct one, but there were still problems.

gilly775 wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 23:50:
I still find it funny that fingers are being pointed at AMD/NVidia for poor driver support by id, yet id/Bethesda let the game ship before VERIFYING that whatever drivers that had to code the game were good enough and available to the masses. But I guess that's what some people do when you decide to choose the console as the lead development platform....

Very very few nvidia users had any problems besides a bit of texture popin on slow systems.
 
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204. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 23:11 Creston
 
Is there a huge speed difference between your 5850 and the 6950?

I may just wait for the 7000s to come out...

Thanks Ray

Creston
 
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203. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:43 Krovven
 
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 22:37:
Patch allows for ultra-spectacular new visuals! :p

Haggar's place never looked better!

Check out the details on those sunglasses!

LOL. Yep, just like Dmirti said, ignoring major technical problems and dealing with it in post-release patches sure is acceptable.

 
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202. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:41 Ray Marden
 
I purchased the Sapphire model based solely upon it being in stock and there being a manufacturer rebate back at the start of the year. It's worked fine for me and has not presented any of the minor glithces my prior 5850 had.

As for the 2GB version, excluding something like Rage, there really is not much of a real word gain over the 1GB model. Otherwise, just make sure you have sufficient power and your case has space to fit a wide card. I never tried to unlock it.

This is the September comparison, but you might want to check out the article from Tom's:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-performance-radeon-geforce,3018.html
Cooler and less power needed than NvIdIa'S equivalent.
Wondering when the next update of cards is coming,
Ray

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2011, 23:20.
 
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201. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:40 siapnar
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 22:26:
Why shouldnt anyone be bitter if they spend $60 on a game and can't play it? Nevermind being bitter after having problems with Deus Ex, Dead Island and now Rage during launch weeks?

If you don't show some respect towards the people that have spent money on these games, have legitimate problems and make comments brushing off those problems...then don't be surprised when you get an earful. Now go cry in the corner.

Yes, your post has thoroughly invoked utter, corner hugging sadness in me. How grey the skies are. Woe is me.
 
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200. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:37 Creston
 
Patch allows for ultra-spectacular new visuals! :p

Haggar's place never looked better!

Check out the details on those sunglasses!



Creston
 
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199. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:36 [VG]Reagle
 
I thought Carmack runs his mouth about how he knows everything about computer games and graphics. Then he puts out this garbage. Try working on games and not building space craft and maybe crap like this wont happen...  
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198. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:34 Ray Marden
 
I suspect they are playing a semantics game. Note the "inherently" in the statement.

Yes, with v-sync disabled, the screen refreshes as much as it can whether it'a a full or partial (tearing) update.

But enabling v-sync does not cut your framerate in half - the game simply refreshes the entire screen as often as it can.

If you have a slower computer, v-sync probably does make the overall experience more smooth, albeit with a sh*t ton of tearing. However, I would gladly take a v-sync experience equivalent to 40hz, 50hz or 58hz instead of capping the game's framerate to 30 FPS.

Now, as for it being a performance cheat for the game that was designed explicitly for 60hz realtime auto-configuration, that's a different matter.
Herp derp herpa derp.
Shrugging; off to play the Ico and Shadow of Colossus collection,
Ray
 
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197. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:33 theyarecomingforyou
 
Ray Marden wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 22:15:
So...patch notes that contain a blatant lie?

A game that mandates a 60hz refersh rate - tearing, texture resolution, graphical quality be damned?

And, if you don't give it 60hz, the game is going to limit PC gamers to 30hz?
Huh, what are you talking about? People were complaining about v-Sync not being enabled when the game was first released, which required people to force it on through drivers. This patch exposes the v-Sync option, allowing you to enable it to prevent tearing - the side effect of this is a drop to 30hz when the system isn't able to provide 60hz. That's because tearing is caused by refreshing the frame during the display cycle refresh, meaning that for 1 of those 60hz you get maybe 1/3 of one frame and 2/3 of another.

The game defaulted to v-sync off, which meant that there could be occasional tearing when the game dropped below 60fps.

This patch allows those that WANTED v-sync to be able to enable it, as well as a new Smart option that will provide the best of both worlds. id Software has introduced the best possible implementation of v-sync.
 
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196. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:26 Krovven
 
siapnar wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 21:10:
Christ you're bitter.

Really didn't see any comments made by him that would warrant the one you just made... I just saw valid points of discussion

Why shouldnt anyone be bitter if they spend $60 on a game and can't play it? Nevermind being bitter after having problems with Deus Ex, Dead Island and now Rage during launch weeks?

If you don't show some respect towards the people that have spent money on these games, have legitimate problems and make comments brushing off those problems...then don't be surprised when you get an earful. Now go cry in the corner.

 
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195. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:23 Creston
 
Ray Marden wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 22:15:
All this aside, I gave the new patch a quick whirl and it seems to work, at least on my system (6950 2GB & Win 7 64-bit)

Hey Ray,

I'm tempted to get a 6950 2GB for my next system in a few weeks. Which particular one did you get? Any plusses or negatives about that card?

Creston
 
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194. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:20 Creston
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 21:48:
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 21:11:
When VSync is turned ON you should not see screen tearing. However, any time your frame rate drops below 60 frames per second you will get a sudden more severe drop to 30 frames per second. This is how VSync inherently works.

Errr, wot? If this is how Vsync inherently works, then why do I never have that problem in every other game except Just Cause 2? For that matter, why do I not have this problem in RAGE itself when I force Vsync through the CCC? Confused
It is actually how it works. That's why many gamers are opposed to it and are willing to put up with a bit of screen tearing. The advantage of V-Sync is that it stops graphics cards over working themselves. If I disable V-Sync in some games, especially games like Crysis 2, then my graphics card heats up quite dramatically.

But... that's not how it works? I mean, at least not in practice? Since V-sync is broken in the patch (literally. It just won't turn on), I forced it back on through the CCC, and I never have a drop down to 30fps? I had those in Just Cause 2, and it was super irritating, because the game would just constantly lurch back and forth, basically.

I don't have that problem AT ALL in Rage, and I'm sure that I dip below 60fps from time to time. It just seems weird. Other than JC2, I've NEVER had a game lurch me back to 30fps if I dipped below 60 (or 75, whatever my refresh rate was.)

Anyway, the game is playable again for me, but I still haven't found what setting I switched that caused it. I think it may have been the OpenGL Triple Buffer in the CCC.

One thing I will say, the Large Texture Cache option has a noticeable effect on texture pop-in (as in: improves it.)

Creston
 
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193. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 22:15 Ray Marden
 
So...patch notes that contain a blatant lie?

A game that mandates a 60hz refersh rate - tearing, texture resolution, graphical quality be damned?

And, if you don't give it 60hz, the game is going to limit PC gamers to 30hz?

All this aside, I gave the new patch a quick whirl and it seems to work, at least on my system (6950 2GB & Win 7 64-bit) - lighting appears consistent across all textures, NPCs are not shaking, ammo is positioned in my weapons, etc. Additionally, the game seems to run even faster than it did before.

Tempted to say id should go console-only,
Ray
 
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192. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 21:48 theyarecomingforyou
 
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 21:11:
When VSync is turned ON you should not see screen tearing. However, any time your frame rate drops below 60 frames per second you will get a sudden more severe drop to 30 frames per second. This is how VSync inherently works.

Errr, wot? If this is how Vsync inherently works, then why do I never have that problem in every other game except Just Cause 2? For that matter, why do I not have this problem in RAGE itself when I force Vsync through the CCC? Confused
It is actually how it works. That's why many gamers are opposed to it and are willing to put up with a bit of screen tearing. The advantage of V-Sync is that it stops graphics cards over working themselves. If I disable V-Sync in some games, especially games like Crysis 2, then my graphics card heats up quite dramatically.

Fortunately they also include Smart V-Sync, which is the first time I've heard of it being implemented. That includes all the positives but none of the negatives. Can't wait for this to become industry standard.

As for the patch, it seems to have improved the few remaining quirks I had. Previously some of the characters were glitching in Wellspring but now appear to be fine. Everything maxed out, including 8xAA, and it runs beautifully smooth. Now they need to release the 150GB of textures that they have for the game, as the quality of textures on objects / floors is simply shocking. There's no point using MegaTexture if it results in so many textures looking WORSE than a standard tiling / decal game.
 
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191. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 21:34 Creston
 
Aaaaaand the patch has made the game absolutely unfuckingplayable. I get probably a frame every 5 seconds now.

Fantastic. Thanks, John. You're a goddamn fucking champion.

Steam forums rife with people for whom the patch made things a fuckton worse. A few who say it fixed stuff. Large majority it either completely broke the textures, or can't even run anymore.

I can't even play. I can't get out of the bar. It takes a minute for the screen to update a single fucking frame.

I reckon this patch got tested on their in-house testing equipment again. Well done, id. Truly, job well done.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCKKKK


Edit : Somehow got it working again. Deleted all cfgs and startup options, still wouldn't work. Turned off Vsync in driver. Still wouldn't work. Turned off CCC AI. Still wouldn't work. In a fit of aptly named rage, fiddled with every fucking option in existence, and now it runs...

Patch still broke Vsync, though. You can try to switch it On or Smart in the video panel, it doesn't do anything.

Christ what an incredible clusterfuck of a launch.

Creston

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2011, 22:20.
 
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