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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 2.
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230. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 12:22 yuastnav
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 9, 2011, 11:23:
The only way it makes sense to develop for a 7 year old console is if you want to reach the widest audience possible and make the most people happy.


Sorry, guys, there are still more Xboxes out there than PCs capable of running Rage. Of course, right now it seems like no PCs are capable of running Rage.

Skyrim will be terrible at launch, too, but Bethesda has far more experience in fixing it up quickly.
Any surprise, now, that Skyrim stuck to its own engine?

Yeah but it wouldn't be a true successor to Oblivion without a terrible launch, now would it - so that is expected.
id is quite a tech-savvy company (or at least was) so it's surprising.
 
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229. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 11:23 Beamer
 
The only way it makes sense to develop for a 7 year old console is if you want to reach the widest audience possible and make the most people happy.


Sorry, guys, there are still more Xboxes out there than PCs capable of running Rage. Of course, right now it seems like no PCs are capable of running Rage.

Skyrim will be terrible at launch, too, but Bethesda has far more experience in fixing it up quickly.
Any surprise, now, that Skyrim stuck to its own engine?
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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228. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 11:20 Beamer
 
Creston wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 22:37:
Patch allows for ultra-spectacular new visuals! :p

Haggar's place never looked better!

Check out the details on those sunglasses!



Creston

So that's what it would be like if we hadn't developed textures and instead stuck with dithering, like in Stunt Island.

Viva la Stunt Island!
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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227. well..... Oct 9, 2011, 10:36 Shataan
 
"Anyway, I don't think RAGE is a bad game"

No... it`s not bad. I got it running sweet for me partly due to the stickied High Rez tweak at the Steam Rage forum, and the patch update, the visuals are pretty amazing imho. The design. Anything RPGlike is sorta clunky for me, in the navigating inventory areas. Or bringing up weaps easilly.

I got this 1 cause I really had nothing else on the horizon I am interested in cept for maybe BF 3. So I thought I`d give it a go. It is worth a sp playthru I think.

Had Carmack said ahead of the release what he stated bout PCs, I prolly would not have gotten this game.

Imho, not to tell it like it is till after release is f*cking shady. When he was doing the vids they put out to demo for the Press, he = Carmack could have stated his oppinion right then and there. And now that I know.... well, RAGE is my last Id purchase. I am sure Id doesn`t care if they lose sales anyways. Right?

Hopefully by the end of the sp game, it will still feel like a worthwhile buy.



 
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226. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 06:05 yuastnav
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Oct 9, 2011, 05:07:
zirik wrote on Oct 9, 2011, 01:53:
i thought id software stopped using opengl for their games in favor of direct x. didnt carmack mention it on an interview regarding tech 5? he said the draft status of the latest opengl library is hurting developers. maybe the lack of support and unfinished standard is whats causing all these problems.
idTech5 is OpenGL. However, Carmack said that if he were to ever start again he would develop for DirectX, as he says that it has a slightly advantage. However, he also said that they'd done too much work to move over to DirectX and that he'd never rewrite as much code as he did for RAGE.

Basically, he picked OpenGL and now he has to stick with it.

There's not really anything keeping him from writing his next engine in DirectX.
Look at icculus, when he ports a game he single-handedly rewrites all the DirectX code into OpenGL code to make it run on Linux and OS X.
I wouldn't understand why he'd not do it since they're too lazy to port Rage, for example, to Linux anyway.
 
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225. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 05:46 Jerykk
 
The only way it makes sense to develop for a 7-year old console is if your only interest is to make money.

Which is why publishers and developers tend to focus on consoles. Money takes precedence over all else. The developers who do it primarily because of their passion for it are either modders or indies.

Anyway, I don't think RAGE is a bad game. I'm finding it fairly entertaining, though certainly not $60 worth of entertainment. Worth picking up for $30 when all these issues have been fixed. But yeah, you should always try before you buy, whether there's an official demo or not. It will save you a lot of grief.
 
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224. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 05:07 theyarecomingforyou
 
zirik wrote on Oct 9, 2011, 01:53:
i thought id software stopped using opengl for their games in favor of direct x. didnt carmack mention it on an interview regarding tech 5? he said the draft status of the latest opengl library is hurting developers. maybe the lack of support and unfinished standard is whats causing all these problems.
idTech5 is OpenGL. However, Carmack said that if he were to ever start again he would develop for DirectX, as he says that it has a slightly advantage. However, he also said that they'd done too much work to move over to DirectX and that he'd never rewrite as much code as he did for RAGE.

Basically, he picked OpenGL and now he has to stick with it.
 
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SteamID: theyarecomingforyou
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223. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 04:54 Johnny L
 
I see why other people have told you to read the post again, you keep claiming a dichotomy. For there to be a dichotomy I would have to have claimed that some companies care about their customers, and yet the only thing I said was that they don't. But somehow you keep arriving at a conclusion that I said either they do or they don't. Once again, making assumptions.  
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222. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 04:36 Johnny L
 
So in your little world, no company has ever screwed over a customer in the name of profit? No company has ever used copy protection that has prevented or hindered a person from using a product huh?, every company on earth is a perfect blend of charity and profit? And again you assume and make grand statements of "what i mean" when not once did I claim speaking for "the world" or for anyone but myself, I'm not the one claiming others are saying anything they never actually said. I made a broad over-generalization and you take it as a fact, hate to tell you but you're the one making assumptions and false claims if you can't distinguish a viewpoint from a fact. It's a forum, as in a place for people to complain. But apparently you're so busying trying to be right that you don't actually care about what is being said.  
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221. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 04:27 Johnny L
 
And yet you are the one claiming to be right when everyone else is wrong, which I believe is a defining factor of delusion. Newsflash, you can claim facts all you want but you are ALSO stating an opinion and foolish enough to believe it's fact. I never claimed what I was saying was the world's viewpoint nor did I ever claim to be spouting fact over opinion, but hey who am I to argue with a troll, keep spouting your "facts" and keep insulting others for differing "opinions". Obviously you ignore anything you didn't think of yourself.  
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220. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 04:26 eRe4s3r
 
For the record, while we are on "rock".. the rocks in Metro have about 4 times higher texture resolution (on HIGH - theres still Ultra...) than the ones in Rage ;p

I don't think theres a lot of gpu's around that can run BF3 on the "actual" ultra quality setting on a 64 player server but point is that even in 3 years that game will still look pretty well, while Rage will always look blurry, no matter how much VRAM you throw at it.
 
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219. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 03:28 Kastagir
 
I empathize with the Steam purchasers. I purchased Rage through Amazon and chose to read the reviews before opening the box. It has already been returned for a full refund.

Carmack's comments regarding the PC's inferior nature as a gaming platform seem strange. The only way it makes sense to develop for a 7-year old console is if your only interest is to make money. For years, Rage has been touted as new technology, but this is likely just marketing PR for potential licensees. This isn't what I would have previously associated with id, but that is clearly the direction they're moving in. I fully expect the backlash will result in very poor interest in their next offering.

I hope Bethesda is listening. I would hate to see Skyrim suffer a similar fate, though it is much too late to do anything about it now. That game too was developed on the XBOX 360, but I think more effort (or as Carmack puts it, "development effort") has been put into the PC version to make it look better.

id (Carmack) would develop a game for the iPhone if they thought it was the leading platform for games. It's still a stupid avenue to show off new technology if there's something more capable.
 
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218. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 01:53 zirik
 
Creston wrote on Oct 9, 2011, 01:09:
On a sidenote: I can confirm that the OpenGL Triple Buffer is what's fucking the game with the latest patch. Without it activated, I can play without issues. With it on, I can play for ~ 2 seconds before it freezes up.

i thought id software stopped using opengl for their games in favor of direct x. didnt carmack mention it on an interview regarding tech 5? he said the draft status of the latest opengl library is hurting developers. maybe the lack of support and unfinished standard is whats causing all these problems.
 
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217. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 01:49 Krovven
 
So, for me the problem only got worse with the patch. Thanks id, you guys rock!

http://steamcommunity.com/id/krovven/screenshot/542907315075775418?tab=public

 
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216. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 01:24 ^Drag0n^
 
I just got to the "Second" wasteland.

Creston, wait until you get to the subway station...that map is AMAZING. It seems modeled slightly on Grand Central. Some of the new effects were....stunning.

Just nice architecture and map design, especially when the level hits it's opus.
 
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"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
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215. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 01:09 Creston
 
Krovven wrote on Oct 9, 2011, 00:18:
For those thinking on refund...you're screwed. I was aware they don't generally give refunds unless it's before the game is released, but I was hoping.


6 Message by Support Tech Arnold on Sat, 8th Oct 2011 7:50 pm
Hello,

As with most software products, we will not offer refunds or exchanges for purchases made online as outlined in the software license - please review Section 4 of the Steam Subscriber Agreement for more information.

Steam Subscriber Agreement
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Please send me a copy of your conversation with Bethesda Support, which outlines what steps youíve taken to try to get the game working on your computer and I will investigate this matter further.


See if you can get them to give you Steam credit (ie, put funds in your Steam wallet), and to remove the game from your library.

I've seen a few people on Steam's forum that were able to do that.


On a sidenote: I can confirm that the OpenGL Triple Buffer is what's fucking the game with the latest patch. Without it activated, I can play without issues. With it on, I can play for ~ 2 seconds before it freezes up.

Just finished the Dead City. That was a really cool level. That looked NOTHING like it did in id's screenshots.

Creston
 
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214. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 9, 2011, 00:32 Dades
 
tl;dr.  
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213. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 00:29 Bhruic
 
It must be nice to live in your little bubble where you're right and the world is wrong

Actually, it looks like I'm living in a world where I'm right, and you're wrong. Oh, and a world where you believe that you speak for the entire world.

It's called an opinion, look it up some time.

People seem to love this one, as if it gives them a "get out of jail free" card. If your opinion is that the sky is yellow, you are wrong. Calling it an "opinion" doesn't factor into it. Similar case here, your opinions don't trump the facts, and the facts disagree with your opinion.

And the fact that you have to insult anyone who opposes your view shows how childish you are about the possibility of being wrong.

I haven't insulted you. I said you made a foolish argument. Which, again, is a factual statement.

You should also look up words before you use them.

And you should try and understand them before quoting dictionary definitions.

To claim a false dichotomy implies that a person believes in both a positive and negative of something. When someone only states a single view, it's not a dichotomy, it's a viewpoint.

It doesn't imply they believe in a positive and negative, it flat out states that they are claiming that something is mutually exclusive when it's not the case. If you said that people who wear socks can't wear hats, you would be claiming that socks and hats are mutually exclusive when they aren't.

The false dichotomy that you used was claiming that companies can either want to make money, or they can care about their customers. Unfortunately for you, it's possible for companies to do both. Since that's the case, your factually wrong, regardless of how you try and wrap it in "opinion".
 
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212. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 00:18 Krovven
 
For those thinking on refund...you're screwed. I was aware they don't generally give refunds unless it's before the game is released, but I was hoping.


6 Message by Support Tech Arnold on Sat, 8th Oct 2011 7:50 pm
Hello,

As with most software products, we will not offer refunds or exchanges for purchases made online as outlined in the software license - please review Section 4 of the Steam Subscriber Agreement for more information.

Steam Subscriber Agreement
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

Please send me a copy of your conversation with Bethesda Support, which outlines what steps youíve taken to try to get the game working on your computer and I will investigate this matter further.

 
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211. Re: id On RAGE Oct 9, 2011, 00:03 Creston
 
theyarecomingforyou wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 23:36:
Don't forget, when we're talking about dropping to 30hz that's only momentarily - as soon as the framerate is above 60fps it goes back to 60hz. It might only be for a fraction of a second but some people notice it more readily than others.

Ah, now that actually makes sense. Thanks for explaining it.

Creston
 
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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 2.
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