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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 9.
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90. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 04:28 Jackplug
 
"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added.

Fuck you Carmack, I just paid for a console game, for my pc. Stuff your fucking games from now on up your shitter. Will never buy anything from you again.

So I with the likes of Doom 4 will be just another console rip, so that will be pirated to hell cos no fucker is gonna buy it on the pc not after this palaver.
 
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89. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 04:03 Razumen
 
Bhruic wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 03:27:
Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases.

So basically what he's saying is they put a tenth of the effort into developing for the PC? Because it's no wonder the game had so many problems if that's the case. If it's not the case, wtf is he bringing it up for?

No, that's not what he's saying at all, try reading the article again.
 
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88. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 03:53 SectorEffector
 
vrok wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 02:04:
A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases.
Not in this case though since Rage is the worst id game ever. And id hasn't made good games in a long long time.

Frankly, I don't even care about the graphics even though they're far below BF3/Witcher 2 in quality. Rage is just plain and simple a really bad game. The gameplay is terrible, the animations are very bad, and the horrible sounds make me want to rip my ears out.

ID has one of the worst sound designers of any company, they are the polar opposite of DICE...

Doom3's machine gun sound effect was uncontrollably disappointing.

Rage with its disappearing corpses and bland gameplay can go jump in the bargin bin where it belongs before my wallet gains any proximity to it.
 
Avatar 55456
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-Q2iICtlIc
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87. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 03:27 Bhruic
 
Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases.

So basically what he's saying is they put a tenth of the effort into developing for the PC? Because it's no wonder the game had so many problems if that's the case. If it's not the case, wtf is he bringing it up for?
 
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86. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 03:27 Beaner
 
I thought we were going through this resurgence of everyone suddenly moving toward PC gaming again. Of all the people to do the reverse... lol Carmack.  
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85. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 03:00 Mashiki Amiketo
 
Ant wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 02:45:
[sighs] id is over.
ID was dead after Q3 was released. I think that was about the time I stopped going to lan parties.
 
--
"For every human problem,
there is a neat, simple solution;
and it is always wrong."
--H.L. Mencken
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84. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 02:59 El Pit
 
You know, id, we had a great time. Lots of wonderful memories. But now we have different interests, and you want to develop into a very different direction. I understand this. Thanks for the years we shared, no harsh feelings here. You got a new friend now, with socketed diamonds in his teeth, plenty of golden rings. And he promised you, that you can earn a lot of money without working as hard as you did in the past. All you are required to do now is drop to your knees, open the trousers of the kids that come along, and... Well, you know the drill. I hope you'll be happy with your new friend and your new job. Buhbye.  
Consoles? I owned two: a Pong clone and an Atari 2600. And that's it.
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83. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 02:57 Acleacius
 
Your joking right? There are many solid engines that don't have anywhere this kind of trouble. Doom 3 was a sloppy and crappy ass engine at release too.

Take an engine like Source for instance scales extremely well, Unreal scales well.

The problem is they seem to think it's more important to release something untested. And always seem to releases coding only capable of running to extreme top end machines. Then when things go to crap, who gets blamed? The UNREASONABLE customer who paid top dollar. Damn Ingrates.

In case you haven't noticed the console version aren't scoring very high either.
 
The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.That is easy.All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.It works the same way in any country.
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82. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 02:45 Ant
 
[sighs] id is over.  
Avatar 1957
 
Ant @ The Ant Farm: http://antfarm.ma.cx and Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net ...
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81. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 02:43 Jerykk
 
More power means more complexity means longer development cycles and higher costs.

That's not really true at all. Yes, PC games usually go through compatibility testing but that's outsourced, takes about a week and is performed only a few times throughout the development cycle. However, PC games do not have to be submitted for certification like console games do and certification is a significantly more costly matter than compatibility testing. There are dedicated, full-time QA testers who specialize exclusively in cert testing and comprehensive cert passes are performed regularly. The actual submission for certification is very expensive and has to be planned far ahead. If you miss your scheduled submission date or fail submission, that's more money down the drain. Then you have the cost of dev and test kits. A single dev kit costs around $10,000. Most games have at least 10-20 programmers so that's $100k right there.

Then there's ease of development as well. A common misconception amongst people outside the industry is that developing for a closed platform is faster and easier. That would be true, if the closed platform weren't horribly outdated. Compiling, linking, loading and running a PC build is significantly faster process than on X360 or PS3. A modern PC can run a debug build with a higher framerate than consoles can run submission builds, making it much easier and faster to test your changes. Oh, and don't forget memory. PCs have lots of memory. It's rarely an issue for PC developers. Conversely, memory is a huge issue for console developers. Trying to work with 512MB of memory total is brutal. Do you know why RAGE's engine was designed around texture streaming? Because that's the only way to fit those textures into console memory. Console developers spend more time working around memory limitations than PC developers spend fixing compatibility issues.

That PC development still gets AAA SKU's at all is almost amazing right now.

It's not amazing at all. Developing a PC port is cheap. It's only a small fraction of the total development budget and as such, it's easy to generate a profit from. That's why more and more publishers are releasing PC versions of their multiplatform releases. In addition, digital distribution gives publishers a much larger cut of each sale than retail, making it even easier to profit from PC sales. You'd be stupid not to release a PC version of your game, unless it was in a genre that has no audience on PC.
 
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80. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 02:36 goatman
 
I would normally let all of these negative comments about a new release not bother me but as a life long PC gamer I am just fed up with the impatient group we have become.

Do we expect PC developers to test their product on every conceivable hardware configuration available?

How many are there? 50 different models? Made on 100 different manufactured cards? Sitting on how many MBs?

Doesn't sound very reasonable to me. I like to have a quality product for my money. I am not however, unreasonable to the fact that you cannot test every possible variance.

Do we want game developers to abandon the PC? I don't. But hell, when they hear the kinds of comments that are made on boards like this I really can't blame them.

Code an entire game based off of just two possible platforms with the PS3 and the 360? Sounds like heaven just to avoid the hate, and yes some here are spouting pure hate, towards something they put much time and effort into.

One week is not too much to ask. I would be patient with a car if it had problems off the lot and I spend a little more on vehicles.

OpenGL. Its been an issue with PC gaming from the word 3dfx and GLQuake. Nvidia didn't handle it well back then, turned it around, and now excels at it. ATI seems to be much more DX friendly. You need to pick and choose your battles friends.

id to blame? Sure somewhat. Drivers? Sure somewhat. Freedom with hardware choices we love? Sure somewhat. Unreasonable to hate? Sure. Will they get it sorted? Track record says yes.
 
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79. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 02:19 StingingVelvet
 
Pineapple Ferguson wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 02:08:
Sure am glad I didn't buy this piece of shit game.

Just because it led on consoles, which honestly is the smart choice, doesn't mean it's a shitty game. If you like pure shooters it's a pretty good game and once you tweak it a bit it looks amazing on the PC, barring some nasty textures hidden in corners.

The main issue with PC gamers on the internet is their dramatic whining about everything. Me included, at times.
 
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78. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 02:08 Pineapple Ferguson
 
Sure am glad I didn't buy this piece of shit game.

I was once a total id fanboy. Doom was the whole reason I got into PCs, let alone gaming. I played more hours on Quake 1 thru 3 than I care to count, but this just proves what I've been saying all along: You can't trust any game developer or publisher to do the right thing anymore.

Stop preordering and buying on day one. Make them earn your money based on trusted reviews, not by fleecing you with hype or your willingness to support them based on reputation from previous titles.
 
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77. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 02:04 vrok
 
A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases.
Not in this case though since Rage is the worst id game ever. And id hasn't made good games in a long long time.

Frankly, I don't even care about the graphics even though they're far below BF3/Witcher 2 in quality. Rage is just plain and simple a really bad game. The gameplay is terrible, the animations are very bad, and the horrible sounds make me want to rip my ears out.
 
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76. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 02:00 shihonage
 
Really glad I got to RMA this game back to Amazon. Didn't even open the package. The reviews told me enough.

I should've seen this happening after Quake Wars, which is the closest engine-wise to Rage, still runs like crap on medium settings on a system that runs Crysis 2 on ultra fine.
 
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75. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 01:57 grudgebearer
 
AnointedSword wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 01:18:
What is the number one pirated platform and do not give me any of this well all platforms are pirated BS. Keep pirating games, you are only shooting yourselves in the foot. I have said this for years, you reap what you sow.The bottom line is if you do not buy the game you like playing they have no record of sales. There you have it... Hate to tell you that I told you so...

So...now shitty console porting to the PC, with half-assed driver support can also be blamed on "pirating of games?" Fuck, what can't pirating do?


 
Avatar 17580
 
'I'm not going to walk in through the front door - or the side door - and let you do the talking, just like that. You think I got this old not knowing how to stay alive?'
- Harlon Nayl
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74. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 01:29 ^Drag0n^
 
KilrathiAce wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 01:03:
EddieTheHack wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 00:59:
The money is in consoles for several genres of games. That PC development still gets AAA SKU's at all is almost amazing right now.

Good point and I have no problems with it as long as company dont try to put price tag on PC half assed version same as consoles. ID Software unfortunately put 60 bucks price on PC version which is just slap in the face. You may want to call PC gamers trolls and flaming but when ID software insults me with such price tag for a product thats clearly not developed properly for PC then what do you expect.

I'm pretty sure id had little to do with pricing, and Bethesda had EVERYTHING to do with it, Bethesda being the publisher and all.
 
Avatar 55075
 
"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
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73. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 01:27 ^Drag0n^
 
PHJF wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 01:05:
The problem is, unexplored ideas in graphics are largely about nuance and making a believable simulation, which is something no one is interested in doing; you can't put "better immersion" as a bullet point on the box the same way you can't put anti-aliasing there, so it never gets done.

LA Noire did exactly that, to positive effect.

And look where it got them: shut down, and in the unemployment line. :/
 
Avatar 55075
 
"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
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72. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 01:19 Elf Shot The Food
 
The creator of the Glorious PC Master Race has just struck them down. How ironic.  
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71. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 01:18 AnointedSword
 
What is the number one pirated platform and do not give me any of this well all platforms are pirated BS. Keep pirating games, you are only shooting yourselves in the foot. I have said this for years, you reap what you sow.The bottom line is if you do not buy the game you like playing they have no record of sales. There you have it... Hate to tell you that I told you so...  
If you were right, I would be agreeing with you.
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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 9.
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