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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 8.
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110. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 08:46 Bhruic
 

You know, I am thinking their response will be "Fine, the PC people want to bitch, we ust won't make games on that platform anymore. We have a set console platform, and have less QA on those platforms."

Considering the quality of the games they've put out in the last ten years (and they barely qualify for plural on "games"), I can't say that the PC people will miss them much.

I know I certainly won't.
 
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109. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 08:34 xXBatmanXx
 
You know, I am thinking their response will be "Fine, the PC people want to bitch, we ust won't make games on that platform anymore. We have a set console platform, and have less QA on those platforms."  
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108. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 08:17 Prez
 
With a properly working algorithm and powerful user overrides, most of the technical issues raised in these RAGE threads will go away.

But the anger at Carmack's flippant, unprofessional attitude towards a core market will remain.
 
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107. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 08:11 wonkawonka
 
From a developer's perspective, let me tell you why megatextures are the future.
Megatextures are basically a plug-and-play path for developers to disconnect their workflow pipeline from that of the graphics designers, and at the same time completely do away with the need to optimize for a myriad devices that could conceivably be dramatically different in terms of processing power (e.g. iPhone 3GS vs. iPhone 4S running iOS 5).
So while the first attempt looks like it's quite buggy, I don't see developers dropping that concept any time soon. In fact they're going to all embrace it pretty quickly.
The one thing I want to see ASAP is the ability for the end user to control the algorithmic rules. With a properly working algorithm and powerful user overrides, most of the technical issues raised in these RAGE threads will go away.

Of course I'm not talking about gameplay/story, etc... That is another story, so to speak.
 
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106. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 08:00 Viranth
 
Glad I bought it off some russian site for a low low price, when id makes statements like that.

Enjoying the game though...
 
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105. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 07:10 nofb
 
Well, if John Carmack doesn't see the PC as the leading platform for games, PC owners won't see id games as the appropriate choice for them

Not that those games are very interesting anyway, one or two of that style were enough, now it's getting embarrassing. Yes, after all they might be just good for consoles.
 
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104. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 07:02 eRe4s3r
 
If with innovate you mean downgrading the graphics on a PC back to 1997 while required 3gb of Vram and 22gb of HD space to do it.. then yeah

He hasn't innovated or influenced anything the past 5 years - in fact other game developers truly innovated like Frostbite 2 or the CryEngine 3 for example. He simply invented a way to waste texture memory with 0 gains in gameplay while making everything a blurry mess upclose.

Carmack made a console game, and with that he is no longer influencing pc gaming, in fact the only thing hes good for now is a bad example on how not to do it.
 
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103. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 06:45 Eldaron Imotholin
 
Overon wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:32:
RAGE sucks and no amount of driver issues is going to fix the fundamental GAME DESIGN PROBLEMS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GRAPHICS.

If RAGE is any indication, John Carmack and id can just go over exclusively to the console market and PC gamers will not be worse off. Let's just face reality: After years of development id's newest game is so full of terrible design decisions that graphics issues are just the icing on the shit cake.

But I have to give props to Carmack for being so honest about id's failure so soon after the game is released, of course he can only talk about the graphical failures not the game design failures, they are not his fault.

This.

And the random "*shrug* I'm enjoying RAGE and everything runs fine" people should catch on fire.
 
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102. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 06:12 yuastnav
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 06:00:
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 05:02:
Whining is what causes progress, fact is ID never again will be regarded as a good PC Developer after this, and Carmack nothing but a Quack when he opens his mouth about graphics technology, and the future of it.

Mega-Texture is not the future

Whaaaat? Rolleyes2

So Carmack innovates like crazy and is probably the most influential figure in FPS games ever (and graphics technology in general) and because of one game that was primarily made to make his company some money he's now a quack? [...]

Uhm, most games are primarily made to make a company money. What exactly are you getting at?
 
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101. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 06:12 Luke
 
All i can say is "Blame your self" for what we as a pc gamer are getting
Stop saying yes to every piece of shit they release(incl that DLC crap)
and stop falling for that "pc only" crap , why even go buy the newest hardware if all they can come up with is a Console port ITS VERY easy
just say NO , but i guess peps are falling for all that Jazz everytime and have to defend that they just flushed 40-50 60 $ down the drain for
a console port Clown 's
 
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100. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 06:09 Prez
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 06:00:

So Carmack innovates like crazy and is probably the most influential figure in FPS games ever (and graphics technology in general) and because of one game that was primarily made to make his company some money he's now a quack?

It's a "What have you done for me lately?" kind of thing. No one disputes that his past accomplishments helped pioneer gaming as we know it, but in light of his attitude displayed here it seems obvious that he is no longer relevant to PC gaming's future. And his flippant attitude towards creating a decent working product simply because the market for it is smaller smacks of unprofessionalism and arrogance. So yeah, "a quack" sounds about right.

His attitude towards the PC platform is essentially a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course your market will be smaller on the platform for which you make inferior, barely-working products.
 
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99. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 06:00 Fibrocyte
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 05:02:
Whining is what causes progress, fact is ID never again will be regarded as a good PC Developer after this, and Carmack nothing but a Quack when he opens his mouth about graphics technology, and the future of it.

Mega-Texture is not the future

Whaaaat? Rolleyes2

So Carmack innovates like crazy and is probably the most influential figure in FPS games ever (and graphics technology in general) and because of one game that was primarily made to make his company some money he's now a quack? Are you that boneheaded, really?

This is like that one saying: a man can build a thousand bridges but if he sucks one cock he's known as a cock sucker.
 
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98. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 05:57 .Drifter
 
Jackplug wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 04:28:
So I with the likes of Doom 4 will be just another console rip, so that will be pirated to hell cos no fucker is gonna buy it on the pc not after this palaver.

Always find it funny to read a game isn't worth buying, which implies it has no value, and yet is worth pirating, which implies it does have value.
If I feel a game isn't worth buying, and it has no value to me, I ignore it.

PS:
Not saying you endorse piracy, or are saying you plan to pirate the game, btw. I'm just commenting on the statement in general, since I see variations of it all the time.
 
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97. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 05:54 Fibrocyte
 
DNForever wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 23:26:
I'm usually playing 2 games, and nearing the end of DXHR it's like No Country For Old Men, and Rage is like Scott Pilgrim vs. The World.

It is clear you've seen neither of those movies.
 
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96. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 05:54 Prez
 
"You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter."

BAD choice, John.

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version.

Because, in RAGE's case, it's a CONSOLE game, John. Things would be different had you made a PC game - well-made PC games tend to sell much better on PC. Certainly a well-made id game would.

Tinmann840 wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 05:22:
I can't believe what I am reading here. It's a sad day in gaming when you have to hold back the evolution of the game so that outdated and under powered hardware can still look like a viable gaming solution. I built a gaming rig to better appreciate a higher level of gaming but now I have consoles dragging gaming down.

I feel ya, dude. I'm stunned by his comments, more specifically his flippant attitude towards the market that made "John Carmack" a household name, but at least he's honest about things. I don't have to wonder if he or id are relevant to PC games anymore.

Of course, the asshole could have pointed this out BEFORE he got a whole bunch of people buy a train wreck that received 1/10th of the development resources of its console counterpart on PC.

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2011, 06:04.
 
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95. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 05:22 Tinmann840
 
I can't believe what I am reading here. It's a sad day in gaming when you have to hold back the evolution of the game so that outdated and under powered hardware can still look like a viable gaming solution. I built a gaming rig to better appreciate a higher level of gaming but now I have consoles dragging gaming down. John, you lied. You said it was going to be a PC game first. Well I hope you all make you profit point.  
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94. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 05:13 ibm
 
I couldn't care less which platform the "design point" was aimed at, I just want the thing to work.  
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93. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 05:02 eRe4s3r
 
Whining is what causes progress, fact is ID never again will be regarded as a good PC Developer after this, and Carmack nothing but a Quack when he opens his mouth about graphics technology, and the future of it.

Mega-Texture is not the future
 
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92. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 04:40 Bhruic
 
No, that's not what he's saying at all, try reading the article again.

I did. He specifically said they didn't put the same amount of resources into the PC version. And then he specifically said that a game built with a tenth of the resources is inferior. If he didn't mean to imply that they spent a tenth of the resources on the PC version, he shouldn't have brought it up. Because there's no other reason to use that stupid "tenth the resources" line.

Or, to put it differently, if you spend the same amount of resources on all platforms, and one platform is 10 times as powerful, the one that is 10 times as powerful should be the best platform.
 
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91. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 04:36 Illumin
 
Wow worst response every. I won't be buying PC games anymore from Id with an attitude like that. Way to alienate your customers. What it comes down to is this .. id putting effort into making a quality product that's it. Nothing more too it.  
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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 8.
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