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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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130. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:09 Creston
 
WaltC wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 09:27:
Creston wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:44:
...
Edit : In fairness, after installing the latest AMD driver AND restoring the 8192 tweaks, it seems as if the texture flickering is finally gone. Hurrah.

Creston

Every time I dial in these forums I keep reading the same old crap about it being only a problem for AMD cards--good grief, and how many times does it have to be repeated? nVidia is the company--not AMD--who put out a faq for nVidia users to use the 8192 tweaks so that the damn game would run right on *nVidia* cards! Sheesh. The game might have run *marginally* better on nVidia cards without the 8192 tweaks--but nowhere near how it should have run. Just like the AMD cards. I read post after post on the Steam forums (where I actually first found out about the tweaks) written by nVidia users having horrendous texture pop-in problems and who were also unable to get the game to function in SLI. What's happened is that some nVidia fans have been spreading the word that it's "only ATi products having problems with RAGE" and ATi users, of course not having access to nVidia cards (and apparently unable to read other forums like I was able to do), have believed it! Hook, line, and sinker.

The truth is that the game in its released state sucked for both PC platforms. Also, the console version reviewed by Ars Technica was rife with its own texture pop-in problems to the degree that Ars gave the console version a great big FAIL--and promised to get to the PC version later. Graphical problems weren't the only thing Ars didn't like, of course, but the main point here is that they existed on the console versions, too!

The fact of the matter is that this is a crap game released by a crap company that is trading solely on past-accrued goodwill. The PC is what put Carmack on the map. Yeah, he's a damn sell out, but more than that--he's as friggin' lazy as they come these days--he could have substantially revised the PC version of this game to take advantage of the "ten-times more power" as Carmack puts it, but he's just not interested anymore in doing that level of work. A few years ago, Carmack worked his butt off doing it right for the PC. I guess the truth is that he's pushing up against his limits as a programmer these days. Who the hell is he kidding? Console technology is almost a decade old and the fact that he'd rather program for it than for the "10 times more powerful PC" speaks volumes.

I am so glad I did not buy this game. Maybe in a few years in the bargain bin for $5. Maybe. Or when it hits GoG...;)


I agree with what you said, I'm just not sure why that was in reply to me? Where did I ever say that it was ONLY ATI that suffered from problems?

Creston
 
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129. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:06 DNForever
 
I think I'm about 1/3 of the way through the game, so my opinion could change, but I jsut don't see that this game is as bad as so many people claim, some of whom clearly haven't bought the game.

People will say they haven't bought a game or will wait for the "bargain bin" or a sale, and act like that's some judgment on the game itself. In reality, it means they have no grounds to say anything about the game.

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2011, 17:05.
 
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128. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:06 Creston
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 07:02:
If with innovate you mean downgrading the graphics on a PC back to 1997 while required 3gb of Vram and 22gb of HD space to do it.. then yeah

He hasn't innovated or influenced anything the past 5 years - in fact other game developers truly innovated like Frostbite 2 or the CryEngine 3 for example. He simply invented a way to waste texture memory with 0 gains in gameplay while making everything a blurry mess upclose.

Carmack made a console game, and with that he is no longer influencing pc gaming, in fact the only thing hes good for now is a bad example on how not to do it.

Yeah, I'm sure that on a deep technological level Tech5 is very impressive, but to the gamer it's the results that count. And the result is that this engine suffers from all kinds of limitations for very very very few benefits. Yes, the rocks are pretty. Hurrah?

Congrats Carmack. You've made an engine that's apparently aimed at amateur Geologists.

Creston

This comment was edited on Oct 8, 2011, 12:19.
 
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127. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:05 Krovven
 
WaltC wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 11:17:
Hopefully, Bethesda is not being a *ick with refunds...;)

They aren't being easy.

I got a response to my request last night that completely ignored that I was asking for a refund and the reason for it.

Instead I got a copy and paste from Bethesda Blog posts about vsync and how to enable it, etc.

Hudson, who posted earlier had emailed Bethesda directly for a refund, and they gave him almost exactly the same response I got regarding how to enable vsync. But also telling him to contact the vendor he bought the game from regarding a refund.

My ticket is still open with Steam Support, again asking for a refund, explaining the problem is specific to ATI 4000 series cards and 3 drivers have come out and havent fixed the problem.

 
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126. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 11:56 DedEye
 
The merits of console vs PC aside, and despite the occasional bug, I'm enjoying this game.

Imo it's far better, gameplay wise, than Doom 3. There are more things to do and a variety of gameplay types within the game. I haven't had a chance to try any of the minigames yet.

After u/g drivers I've had very few gfx glitches, performance is good, the vistas amazing. For some reason multiplayer (Legends anyway) doesn't run as well.

Legends does add some interestng back stories to some of the NPCs. It would be nice to have a series of maps as part of a campaign ala L4D though.

I find the FPS enemy AI better than average. They are good at finding and using cover, flanking, charging, and retreating. The car AI seems unremarkable. They will use powerups etc.

I think I'm about 1/3 of the way through the game, so my opinion could change, but I jsut don't see that this game is as bad as so many people claim, some of whom clearly haven't bought the game.
 
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125. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 11:55 DNForever
 
Fibrocyte wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 05:54:
DNForever wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 23:26:
I'm usually playing 2 games, and nearing the end of DXHR it's like No Country For Old Men, and Rage is like Scott Pilgrim vs. The World.

It is clear you've seen neither of those movies.

I've seen both. Thanks anyways. Have a nice day!
 
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124. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 11:50 Dmitri_M
 
I'm not buying Rage because I bought Metro 2033 a while back and haven't gotten around to playing it yet and I think it's more of a PC game.  
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123. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 11:36 {PH}88fingers
 
I love how in this thread speaking of PC gaming only developers which is now on 7 pages and not 1 mention of Blizzard.
You guys never cease to amaze... of course I will get described as 'blizz shill/fanboy' but I'm ready for it.
Not only are they proof that the PC market is huge, they continue to make pc only games. yet only get shit from you guys. see something wrong here? What is it you want?

I see from you guys the constant "wheres sc2 now? LOL" classic lines when the game is actually being watched by millions all the time. Do you guys even see the pro sc2 scene that is currently going on? I would assume as knowledge 'pc gamers' you should.
The threads on sites like teamliquid go to 100 pages long in no time.
oh right... they are all blizz fanb0ys or "mcdonalds is popular but is it good? LOL"

and I'm not "bending over and taking it from them"; I'm enjoying their games. playing and watching.

so you guys bitch about not developing for PC, then bitch about when the developers do... non stop bitching all around.
Sure you say nothing will change if people don't bitch, but the constant hack bullshit coming from these boards gets to the hilarious level fast.

edit: apologize for the thread hijack from Carmack... but like was posted earlier, it's pretty clearly disappointing that he would switch from a market that can clearly make money when the game is quality. Those that stated the self fulfilling prophecy are right, make a shit game and you won't sell shit on the PC.
 
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122. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 11:35 Matshock
 
WaltC wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 11:00:
Zuckuss wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 10:29:
What game devs always fail to realize is that it's PC gamer's wallets that fund the tech evolution that they are able to put into consoles. If we weren't upgrading every 2 years, consoles would suck that much more.

True, and the fact is that even when Blues runs stories about how Valve and EA both, in recent weeks, have gone on record stating that the PC--not the console--is their overall chief revenue driver, some people are so conditioned to thinking that "PC gaming is dead" that they ignore these public statements and continue to support their weird console biases in their posts.

It depends on the publisher and on the developer as to "which platform" is their largest revenue driver. For some it is consoles, for others it is iPhones/Android phones, and for still others it is, and always has been, the PC.

Valve (and soon EA) makes money on DRM for PCs. Bethesda spends money on DRM for PCs.

Carmack finds himself in a position where being a graphics engine genius isn't good enough anymore so he's spinning around spewing hyperbole.

Next he can complain about all the used copies of Rage for the X360/PS3 moving around.

Meanwhile the market marches on...
 
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121. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 11:17 WaltC
 
You read it wrong. He's saying that, if Rage had been PC exclusive, it would have had a much smaller budget, and that he'd rather have the budget to realize his team's vision, even if it means a rough launch like this one.

You can agree or disagree, but at least read what he's saying before doing so.

Something major is out of whack with your reasoning here...;) You believe Carmack states that the PC is "ten times more powerful" than a console, and that to write a game program taking advantage of "ten times more power" would require less money than it did to "reach his team's vision" of a ten-times less powerful game? Heh...;)

I think that what he meant was that he didn't get a large enough budget to take the time and to do the work required to properly address the PC's far more powerful & capable environment. And yet, id software released a PC version of the game anyway, didn't they? I think it's more on the order of Bethesda offering Carmack $10M to do RAGE and Carmack complaining that wasn't enough money to do a proper PC port because of the extra work required. Regardless of the details of the situation, id software put its name on the PC version of the game and allowed Bethesda to ship it anyway, didn't they?

Ordinarily I don't post so much--but Carmack's remarks really burn me up, especially coming as they do *after the fact* of the game's PC release. Hopefully, Bethesda is not being a *ick with refunds...;)


 
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It is well known that I do not make mistakes--so if you should happen across a mistake in anything I have written, be assured that I did not write it!
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120. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 11:16 Fibrocyte
 
Eldaron Imotholin wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 06:45:
Overon wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:32:
RAGE sucks and no amount of driver issues is going to fix the fundamental GAME DESIGN PROBLEMS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE GRAPHICS.

If RAGE is any indication, John Carmack and id can just go over exclusively to the console market and PC gamers will not be worse off. Let's just face reality: After years of development id's newest game is so full of terrible design decisions that graphics issues are just the icing on the shit cake.

But I have to give props to Carmack for being so honest about id's failure so soon after the game is released, of course he can only talk about the graphical failures not the game design failures, they are not his fault.

This.

And the random "*shrug* I'm enjoying RAGE and everything runs fine" people should catch on fire.

Are you jealous? You poor thing.
 
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119. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 11:00 WaltC
 
Zuckuss wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 10:29:
What game devs always fail to realize is that it's PC gamer's wallets that fund the tech evolution that they are able to put into consoles. If we weren't upgrading every 2 years, consoles would suck that much more.

True, and the fact is that even when Blues runs stories about how Valve and EA both, in recent weeks, have gone on record stating that the PC--not the console--is their overall chief revenue driver, some people are so conditioned to thinking that "PC gaming is dead" that they ignore these public statements and continue to support their weird console biases in their posts.

It depends on the publisher and on the developer as to "which platform" is their largest revenue driver. For some it is consoles, for others it is iPhones/Android phones, and for still others it is, and always has been, the PC.
 
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It is well known that I do not make mistakes--so if you should happen across a mistake in anything I have written, be assured that I did not write it!
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118. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 10:29 Zuckuss
 
What game devs always fail to realize is that it's PC gamer's wallets that fund the tech evolution that they are able to put into consoles. If we weren't upgrading every 2 years, consoles would suck that much more.  
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117. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 10:24 ^Drag0n^
 
You're all reading far too much into it. He's stating what we already know: the money is in the console port, and it makes more sense to develop for the console and have incremental improvements on the PC than develop for the PC and dumb down the game for the console.

As for the guy making the "Douchebag" comment: Really? That's beyond lowbrow. Disagree with his stance? Fine. but show a little respect and class. Carmack has more programming talent and game development experience than you'll have in four lifetimes.
 
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"Never start a fight, but always finish it."
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116. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 09:42 Lesaonar
 
Kevin Lowe wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 09:10:
You read it wrong. He's saying that, if Rage had been PC exclusive, it would have had a much smaller budget, and that he'd rather have the budget to realize his team's vision, even if it means a rough launch like this one.

You can agree or disagree, but at least read what he's saying before doing so.

Actually reverse that statement because you obviously read it wrong. What he said was if they'd been budgeted to expend the same dollar amount for the PC port, it would've been a comparable experience. Their design point was to create the game for consoles and the majority of their budget was used for the development of a console title and a small portion of the budget was spent on the PC port.

"A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases"

So yes you can agree to disagree, but take your own advice and actually read the article.
 
[img]http://valid.canardpc.com/cache/banner/8qzpu4-4.png[/img]
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115. well... Oct 8, 2011, 09:37 Shataan
 
Notice he says all this AFTER peeps are buying the product? He didn`t say anything of this sort before when the game was leading up to release. Next time John? Release it on your prefered platform.

 
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114. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 09:34 netnerd85
 
A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases.
*Looks at Rage, Looks at Hard Reset, Looks at Rage, Looks at John Carmack*

What a complete dbag that has lost touch. Retire, you had your day.
 
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113. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 09:27 WaltC
 
Creston wrote on Oct 7, 2011, 22:44:
...
Edit : In fairness, after installing the latest AMD driver AND restoring the 8192 tweaks, it seems as if the texture flickering is finally gone. Hurrah.

Creston

Every time I dial in these forums I keep reading the same old crap about it being only a problem for AMD cards--good grief, and how many times does it have to be repeated? nVidia is the company--not AMD--who put out a faq for nVidia users to use the 8192 tweaks so that the damn game would run right on *nVidia* cards! Sheesh. The game might have run *marginally* better on nVidia cards without the 8192 tweaks--but nowhere near how it should have run. Just like the AMD cards. I read post after post on the Steam forums (where I actually first found out about the tweaks) written by nVidia users having horrendous texture pop-in problems and who were also unable to get the game to function in SLI. What's happened is that some nVidia fans have been spreading the word that it's "only ATi products having problems with RAGE" and ATi users, of course not having access to nVidia cards (and apparently unable to read other forums like I was able to do), have believed it! Hook, line, and sinker.

The truth is that the game in its released state sucked for both PC platforms. Also, the console version reviewed by Ars Technica was rife with its own texture pop-in problems to the degree that Ars gave the console version a great big FAIL--and promised to get to the PC version later. Graphical problems weren't the only thing Ars didn't like, of course, but the main point here is that they existed on the console versions, too!

The fact of the matter is that this is a crap game released by a crap company that is trading solely on past-accrued goodwill. The PC is what put Carmack on the map. Yeah, he's a damn sell out, but more than that--he's as friggin' lazy as they come these days--he could have substantially revised the PC version of this game to take advantage of the "ten-times more power" as Carmack puts it, but he's just not interested anymore in doing that level of work. A few years ago, Carmack worked his butt off doing it right for the PC. I guess the truth is that he's pushing up against his limits as a programmer these days. Who the hell is he kidding? Console technology is almost a decade old and the fact that he'd rather program for it than for the "10 times more powerful PC" speaks volumes.

I am so glad I did not buy this game. Maybe in a few years in the bargain bin for $5. Maybe. Or when it hits GoG...;)

 
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It is well known that I do not make mistakes--so if you should happen across a mistake in anything I have written, be assured that I did not write it!
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112. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 09:10 Kevin Lowe
 
Bhruic wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 04:40:
No, that's not what he's saying at all, try reading the article again.

I did. He specifically said they didn't put the same amount of resources into the PC version. And then he specifically said that a game built with a tenth of the resources is inferior. If he didn't mean to imply that they spent a tenth of the resources on the PC version, he shouldn't have brought it up. Because there's no other reason to use that stupid "tenth the resources" line.

Or, to put it differently, if you spend the same amount of resources on all platforms, and one platform is 10 times as powerful, the one that is 10 times as powerful should be the best platform.
You read it wrong. He's saying that, if Rage had been PC exclusive, it would have had a much smaller budget, and that he'd rather have the budget to realize his team's vision, even if it means a rough launch like this one.

You can agree or disagree, but at least read what he's saying before doing so.
 
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111. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 09:07 Spektr
 
Maybe I am pointing to the obvious but not content with using lightmaps again. (it actually makes sense with such a technology as megatexture ) the character and vehicle shadows are still the same hard edge shadows we had in Doom. Can't the guy be bothered to code soft edged shadows for the characters?

Regardless of that I hate that rough product launch. It's just not about pc gamers it's about making a polished product that you're fooking up because you forgot to test the platform.
 
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