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id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms

Kotaku asks the musical question "Why Was The PC Launch of Rage Such A "Cluster!@#$"?," getting answers from id on the topic, who express frustration with problems that were largely caused by driver issues. Along the way they also address how the game being designed for consoles holds back the PC edition. "You can choose to design a game around the specs of a high-end PC and make console versions that fail to hit the design point, or design around the specs of the consoles and have a high-end PC provide incremental quality improvements," John Carmack tells them. "We chose the latter." He also bluntly addresses why this makes sense for id (emphasis Kotaku's):

"We do not see the PC as the leading platform for games," Carmack added. "That statement will enrage some people, but it is hard to characterize it otherwise; both console versions will have larger audiences than the PC version. A high end PC is nearly 10 times as powerful as a console, and we could unquestionably provide a better experience if we chose that as our design point and we were able to expend the same amount of resources on it. Nowadays most of the quality of a game comes from the development effort put into it, not the technology it runs on. A game built with a tenth the resources on a platform 10 times as powerful would be an inferior product in almost all cases."

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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 6.
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150. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 13:43 Fletch
 
Sorry if this proves redundant, as I didn't read all the 140-plus comments (yet).

There was a review black-out on this game before it released. They knew the PC version was shit. And I'm not just talking about the graphic problems. Even if the game ran perfect and smooth and had no driver issues, you are still left with a heaping pile of linear, shallow, easy, consolized shit on rails. Charging $60 for a PC game they knew wouldn't please PC gamers is just fucked up. If Carmack had made the above statement before release, they probably would have lost lots of PC sales.

I was a huge id fan until now. I remember spending hundreds of dollars a month in long-distance charges just so I could play Doom on DWANGO. I spent innumerable hours playing Quakeworld. I just finished yet another run through of both Doom and Doom2 a few days ago. I LOVE those games. But now... fuck you, Carmack. The black-out, plus the statement above, shows nothing but indifference towards the very people who paid for all those nice cars and helped make id what it is was by buying your games. You need to do the right thing and start issuing refunds.

I will never purchase an id game again, even if I actually break down and buy a console some day... no id games. I'm not going to support a company that would pull this shit. Hell, I'm still boycotting Bungie for selling out to Microsoft on Halo (fuck you too, Bungie!). I know this means nothing to id and whatever bean-counters tell them that developing for consoles and losing a lot of PC gamers is more profitable than putting their time and effort into a quality PC release. It's business. I understand that. Doesn't mean I can't be pissed about it.

I have no doubt that id will sell millions of console games to the legions of braindead, ADD luddites who grew up playing on consoles and know nothing of what they are missing on the PC. Id wants to become a console developer? Fine. But, if the intent of a PC release is to simply get as much money from PC gamers (who may still hold id high on a pedestal) before the word can get out, please don't bother.

Part of the reason developers believe there's more money in console games is because said developers keep putting out shit PC release after shit PC release. Want to make as much money from PC's as you make from consoles? Start making quality PC games. Daikatana was better than this garbage. Maybe id should re-hire Romero.

/vent
 
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149. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 13:31 Beamer
 
Bhruic wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 13:19:
No matter how it's justified or rationalized, at the end of the day, the bottom line is that companies do not care about customers, they only care about profit.

A common complaint, but not one based in reality. Everyone likes to pull the "big bad company" line, but it's a half-truth at best. Do companies want to make money? Of course, I doubt there are many, if any, companies that want to go out of business. They need money to survive. But (again with the false dichotomies), it's not an "either/or" situation. It's entirely possible to both want to make money, and care about your customers.

Caring about your customers tends to bring you money, too. People don't spend money on something they think doesn't care about them.

But you can't care about every single individual customer. Sometimes caring for a certain group just isn't possible because you only have so much time and money. Other times you make decisions that don't turn out the way you'd hoped and don't have the resources to fix them.

There seems to be a notion that being a company means you have infinite money to hire infinite people.



Also, Carmack was saying this since the reveal. We had more than a few quotes from Carmack that said "the PC is far more powerful than consoles" that some people loved to quote, ignoring that he kept following that with "but we're having a much easier time getting 60 fps on the consoles."
 
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148. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 13:27 netnerd85
 
MoreLuckThanSkill wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 13:22:
netnerd85 wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 12:55:
Have any of you bought Hard Reset yet?

I played the demo, I was not overly impressed with Hard Reset, to be honest. I went into it hoping it was awesome, and was a bit underwhelmed... it felt like a Doom(1 or 2) clone with updated graphics, but somehow some fun was lost along the way too.
It's an awesome looking shoot'em up. That's it. Hard to not enjoy something so simple. Maybe you have matured since the 90's, that's your own fault
 
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147. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 13:22 MoreLuckThanSkill
 
netnerd85 wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 12:55:
Have any of you bought Hard Reset yet?

I played the demo, I was not overly impressed with Hard Reset, to be honest. I went into it hoping it was awesome, and was a bit underwhelmed... it felt like a Doom(1 or 2) clone with updated graphics, but somehow some fun was lost along the way too.

 
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146. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 13:19 Bhruic
 
No matter how it's justified or rationalized, at the end of the day, the bottom line is that companies do not care about customers, they only care about profit.

A common complaint, but not one based in reality. Everyone likes to pull the "big bad company" line, but it's a half-truth at best. Do companies want to make money? Of course, I doubt there are many, if any, companies that want to go out of business. They need money to survive. But (again with the false dichotomies), it's not an "either/or" situation. It's entirely possible to both want to make money, and care about your customers.
 
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145. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 13:14 Johnny L
 
I do still get a kick out of the faulty logic of software/media companies though. Name me one other industry that isn't software, music or media based on Earth that claims theft as a loss of sale. I don't see car companies claiming that carjacking is a lost sale. Banks don't claim robberies are caused by a loss of a customer. And yet some people defend this irrational logic as a reasonable argument. Imagine how ridiculous the world would be if every industry had this mentality and punished its customers accordingly.  
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144. Re: id On RAGE "Cluster!@#$" and Lead Platforms Oct 8, 2011, 13:06 Johnny L
 
No matter how it's justified or rationalized, at the end of the day, the bottom line is that companies do not care about customers, they only care about profit. If good customer service means more money then they'd care more, or at least pretend to. No amount of lying or PR will change that fact that greed is the motivation. No company is immune to greed and no customer is protected from the fallout of it. Inferior hardware or not, console gamers have a love/hate approach to games, either they love it or hate it. PC gamers always have diverse opinions about, well everything. But the bottom line is companies don't care unless it actually affects them. So you can bend over and take it by buying and suffering or you can stand on a soapbox and boycott a game. Chances are that nothing will change, all you can do is try and hope to make an impact.  
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143. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:58 Bhruic
 
have you ever seen on these forums any praise at all for blizzard when their games have clearly been helping the future of PC gaming all around with stellar PC only games

From people who actually think that, yes. However, I think many people don't find their games to be "good", let alone "stellar". The last game they made that I consider good was Warcraft III. Since then, it's been nothing but downhill.
 
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142. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:56 Animals for Crackers
 
The unconscious id has dissolved, leaving the ego and super ego in an unregulated struggle for supremacy.  
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141. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:55 netnerd85
 
{PH}88fingers wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 12:51:
have you ever seen on these forums any praise at all for blizzard when their games have clearly been helping the future of PC gaming all around with stellar PC only games
Oh god, what crack pipe have you been smoking? What do blizzard make any way? Oh they make people pay every month, that's right. Yeah. Big help.

Have any of you bought Hard Reset yet?
 
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140. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:51 {PH}88fingers
 
Bhruic wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 12:38:
so you guys bitch about not developing for PC, then bitch about when the developers do.

So what you're saying is that if a developer chooses to develop for the PC, they should immediately become immune to all criticism? Just the fact they are gracing us with their presence makes them untouchable?

I appreciate the fact that Blizzard makes PC games. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give their games a pass if they are doing something stupid with them.

What is it with people and their dumb false dichotomy arguments these days?

no one is saying to give them a pass if you do not think they deserve a pass, but from so called people who love PC games, have you ever seen on these forums any praise at all for blizzard when their games have clearly been helping the future of PC gaming all around with stellar PC only games
 
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139. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:50 PHJF
 
Imo it's far better, gameplay wise, than Doom 3.

Every game ever made that isn't Doom 3 is better than Doom 3, gameplay wise.
 
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Steam + PSN: PHJF
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138. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:49 {PH}88fingers
 
DNForever wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 12:39:
Life is a zero sum game. You can't expect companies and other people to make it worthwhile for you. You have to just detach yourself from it all. Play the game or not, like them or not. Then get on with your shit.

amen
 
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137. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:39 DNForever
 
I don't have a console except an 8 bit Nintendo, but times change, situations change. Pluto's not a planet anymore either. Maybe I'm not seeing all sides because I don't have an ATI card, but I find it hard to share all this anger. It's just not that big a deal to me because I have very little stake in the outcome. If PC gaming were to die tomorrow, I'd find other stuff to do.

Life is a zero sum game. You can't expect companies and other people to make it worthwhile for you. You have to just detach yourself from it all. Play the game or not, like them or not. Then get on with your shit.
 
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136. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:38 Bhruic
 
so you guys bitch about not developing for PC, then bitch about when the developers do.

So what you're saying is that if a developer chooses to develop for the PC, they should immediately become immune to all criticism? Just the fact they are gracing us with their presence makes them untouchable?

I appreciate the fact that Blizzard makes PC games. But that doesn't mean I'm going to give their games a pass if they are doing something stupid with them.

What is it with people and their dumb false dichotomy arguments these days?
 
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135. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:33 Creston
 
Amen, Bumpy. Amen.

And the BIG reason to have the PC version, Mod tools, isn't even available yet.

Creston
 
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134. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:25 Bumpy
 
This thread and situation makes me sad cause my hobby has become something it shouldn't be.

Rage, Dead Island and DNF all recent prime examples of the way PC gaming SHOULDN'T be.
 
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133. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:21 Creston
 
{PH}88fingers wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 11:36:
I love how in this thread speaking of PC gaming only developers which is now on 7 pages and not 1 mention of Blizzard.
edit: apologize for the thread hijack from Carmack...

I love how you whine about nobody mentioning Blizzard, then realise by the end of your post full of whine how, oh, right, this isn't a thread about Blizzard; it's a thread about id software and John Carmack.

You get the "Figured It Out For Myself" achievement. Congrats!

Creston
 
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132. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:17 Krovven
 
{PH}88fingers wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 11:36:
so you guys bitch about not developing for PC, then bitch about when the developers do... non stop bitching all around.

Let's say I'm going to give you this briefcase. It's really nice, soft leather exterior, electronic lock, state of the art.

What does it matter, if that briefcase is FULL OF SHIT!?

Developers that toss games to the PC without properly developing for the variety of control options at their disposal, testing with hardware they are actually stating they support, and making all design choices based on console only to find out later that they don't work on PC, but they'll ship it anyways.

id software fucked up, plain and simple. John is admitting it, and you are trying to defend him. The shill's that continue to defend someone after they admit to the public they fucked up, you have to be very special to do that.

 
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131. Re: id On RAGE Oct 8, 2011, 12:16 Creston
 
^Drag0n^ wrote on Oct 8, 2011, 10:24:
As for the guy making the "Douchebag" comment: Really? That's beyond lowbrow. Disagree with his stance? Fine. but show a little respect and class. Carmack has more programming talent and game development experience than you'll have in four lifetimes.

So talented people can't be douchebags? Three months ago, Carmack is bleating "Oh, I made such a mistake developing this for the consoles first, I'll never do that again, I have 24 threads here at work, with 24 Gigs of memory and half a TB of SSDs, and I should be able to use that, so the next game we're doing is going to be full focus on that level of power and then we'll scale it down for the consoles."

Then he's gotten the money from all the preorders and the first days of sales, and suddenly he's like "Yeah, fuck the PC. Consoles, baby! Consoles! Oh, and all your problems are because ATI and Nvidia can't write drivers for shit! The fact that the installer just plain forgets to create the cache folder needed to make my engine run better is all ATI's fault!"

Yeah, what else would you call that attitude? He's like all of EA squeezed down into one guy. I've rarely seen a more fucking assholish attitude.

Look, eventually all PC-first developers start making games for the consoles, because they're never happy with selling 5 million copies of a game (Doom 3). They want 10 million copies. Fine. Everyone is entitled to be greedy. But don't just flat out fucking LIE to boost your sales, then do an about-face 4 days after your game sold.

Because then the douchebag label becomes pretty damn accurate.

Creston
 
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250 Replies. 13 pages. Viewing page 6.
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