One think I can agree on is that indeed this is splitting hair/going in circles at the moment. It sort of goes back to my original point about how some people want to love this title so much that they are prepared to ignore/excuse some fundamental flaws.
You know, given what was in the article, it really does explain why the boss fights were shooter-centric versus fitting better into the gameplay mechanic of the rest of the game. It's definitely something I'd bring up at the project closure meeting under "lessons learned--design shortcomings."
Verno wrote on Sep 21, 2011, 15:23:
Considering the team played through both DX games before even starting with DX:HR I think its safe to say they take the original into account when working on sequels. Next time you load up a game and see 2+ logos in the introduction then welcome to outsourcing. It's done in everything from MP design to writing to sound and texture design. Should they have outsourced this particular aspect of the game? Probably not but they were a bit busy creating the other 40+ hours of content so it's forgivable to any reasonable person.
^Drag0n^ wrote on Sep 21, 2011, 14:21:
Your panning of the game without having played it is like criticizing food you've never eaten.
lasersquad wrote on Sep 21, 2011, 08:27:Dades wrote on Sep 20, 2011, 16:13:
Maybe you should try playing it and see if you might enjoy it before panning it. [...]
If you actually read the thread you`d see that I`m not "panning it" - but complaining about few design decisions while recognising it is still a good game
Hehe that`s quite some mental acrobatics, and all that just to avoid agreeing with some pesky noob. So if I choose not to use cover system I`m not avoiding important gameplay element? And if it isn`t adding or detracting from game then wouldn`t you say it was tacked on to please console crowd? (rhetorical question mate)
It`s a speculation based on tidbits of info, current trends in videogaming and DE itself. As good as any other on this site or elsewhere on the net. This team has already "proven" that they can`t even handle the whole game themselves and didn`t they just clutter DE:HR with unnecessary crowd pleasers?
lasersquad wrote on Sep 21, 2011, 13:55:^Drag0n^ wrote on Sep 21, 2011, 08:53:
I think you're missing their point.
They are saying your opinion of Dues Ex gameplay lacks credibility because you haven't even played the game.
I think you missed the point above in which I explain what I think of this old trope. If it`s still unclear though than please go and have look at any thread where people seem to make their minds up about a game before it was even released or reviewed. Like Rage for example.
^Drag0n^ wrote on Sep 21, 2011, 08:53:
I think you're missing their point.
They are saying your opinion of Dues Ex gameplay lacks credibility because you haven't even played the game.
Verno wrote:
You aren't sacrificing any gameplay elements to avoid using third person in DX:HR. The third person cover system and takedowns are mostly considerations for the console market that do not add nor detract from the game in any way.
We have no idea what Thief 4 is right now it's all speculation based on nothing. Given their treatment of the DX IP, I can't see this team doing anything but producing an excellent Thief game.
Third-person cover systems not only break the player's immersion by completely changing your perspective but they completely undermine the whole risk vs reward balance of cover. When you take cover in first-person, you sacrifice awareness for protection. When you take cover in third-person, you sacrifice nothing and gain everything. Without this balance, taking cover becomes shallow and thoughtless. You have no reason not to do it and that makes it boring.
DE:HR way would be a no-no for me because I can`t imagine sacrificing any gameplay elements to avoid 3rd person in this particular title
Dades wrote on Sep 20, 2011, 16:13:
Maybe you should try playing it and see if you might enjoy it before panning it. [...] Getting all fired up about features you aren't even forced to use just makes you look uninformed.
eRe4s3r wrote:
"...the game is too static, the world doesn't evolve, doesn't change dynamically enough and theres way too few people around in the cities..."
Jerykk wrote:
One of the reasons I loved Thief is that you often felt like the hunted, not the hunter
However, games these days are all about accessibility and that's why I'm pretty sure that Thief 4 will have some sort of third-person camera, just like DX:HR did
I didn`t really mean cover system - why would you even need one in Thief anyway? - but lots of grumblings & rumours that it`s gonna be strictly 3rd person. That would kill this title instantly for me.
Is third person cover really that much more immersion-breaking than cut-scenes?
Than picking a line of dialogue from a choice of several?
From weird lockpicking/hacking mini-games?