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Morning Consolidation

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62 Replies. 4 pages. Viewing page 1.
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62. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 13, 2011, 17:36 Wowbagger_TIP
 
If used games were just player-to-player they'd be mostly ignored, because it wouldn't be someone making more money off of them than the people that made them.
Without GameStop, there'd just be a dozen other game trading/reselling services splitting the profits. It wouldn't change the overall desire that people have to buy/sell/trade used games. As long as some companies are willing to create ways to satisfy that desire, they will make money from it. That's just how the market works. Until they implement something along the lines of Steam for consoles, that's the way it will be.
 
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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61. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 13, 2011, 16:12 Beamer
 
Wowbagger_TIP wrote on Sep 13, 2011, 12:15:
GameStop may give them an easy target, but with plenty of other online and offline ways to sell and trade games, I don't see how it would change anything. GameStop going away would only help these other venues, and several of them would probably take its place. I fucking hate GameStop because they completely rip you off, and I would never buy or sell anything there, and I think others are morons for doing so. Sooner or later some other service(s) will take a big bite out of them, unless...

GameStop isn't an easy target, it's the target.
It's a publically traded company that, according to their 10ks, makes the lionshare of their profit from used game sales.

If used games were just player-to-player they'd be mostly ignored, because it wouldn't be someone making more money off of them than the people that made them.
 
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60. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 13, 2011, 15:21 shponglefan
 
Creston wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 21:42:
I will gladly pay 80 bucks for a new game if that new game offers me as much content as the games back then did.

Again, rose-coloured glasses view of history. Some games had loads of content, some didn't. I remember beating Sierra games in the span of a weekend. Recently, I played through the first four Space Quest's in an afternoon.

And likewise today, some games have loads of content, some don't. Modern FPSs tend to be lighter on single-player content than old games, although that's a consequence of the move to more cinematic gameplay. But OTOH, some old FPSs didn't have interesting content to begin with (anyone remember the single player Quake?). But other genres still can pack it in.

This comment was edited on Sep 13, 2011, 20:45.
 
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59. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 13, 2011, 12:15 Wowbagger_TIP
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 23:25:
yonder wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 20:40:
Beamer wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 12:37:
As far as used games, it's a used physical device.

It isn't really, though.
A game is code. The CD either works or it doesn't. There's very little value lost in a transfer of ownership.
A book is a physical item. It is defined by being a physical item. It is also an intimate item, as people tend to read in bed. Do you want to bring something with someone else's hair, snot, coffee stains, etc into bed? No, so used books drop drastically in value.
Cars are physical devices that get significant wear-and-tear, most of which isn't evident from an economically-viable glance. Plus someone has been farting in the driver's seat for years and possibly doing worse in the back seat. The value drastically drops.
Not to mention things like cars and houses, which have enormous used markets, cost so much that most could not buy a new one without selling an old one (in fact, many can never buy a new one, period, and would never without financing - how many Americans ever have over $20k in their savings account?)

Games, though? A used game sells at GameStop for 10% off at most. A $60 game sells for $5 off. A $20 game sells for $2 off. What other product holds value like this used? And games tend to be cheap, with the price falling even quicker. You save very little
buying used and often would save more if you just waited 6 months.

There's one obvious, glaring hole in your logic. If there was only *ONE* retail store that sold used books, you'd better believe they'd cost quite a bit more. You don't have to buy used games at GS. Ever been to a yard sale? Ebay? Swap.com? Buying a game from a yard sale for 15 bucks gets you a cheaper game and gets the re-seller more money in his (/her) pocket.

And the hole in your logic is that those sales are inconsequential. They are a tiny fraction of used sales.

If GameStop did not exist you would not see this war being waged by publishers and developers. But it does, and they can look at the 10k and see how many billions GameStop is making instead of them. They can see the GameStop CEO getting rich despite adding next to nothing to the industry.
GameStop may give them an easy target, but with plenty of other online and offline ways to sell and trade games, I don't see how it would change anything. GameStop going away would only help these other venues, and several of them would probably take its place. I fucking hate GameStop because they completely rip you off, and I would never buy or sell anything there, and I think others are morons for doing so. Sooner or later some other service(s) will take a big bite out of them, unless...

Panickd wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 12:16:
Sadly the next generation of consoles will probably take care of his (and other whiny ass developer/publisher's) problems with second hand gaming by removing the physical media aspect of it altogether. I'd be shocked if the next PS or Xbox has any media beyond a built in hard disk with, maybe, some sort of removable flash card support. It's an all download future folks. As Steam has done for the PC so the console makers will do unto their audience as well.

Well, this seems entirely possible, and even likely. I would be fine with it though. I'll just do the same thing I do now. Wait for sales and buy things when I feel they're worth it. There are damn few games that I feel are worth $60. Maybe one or two a year, at most. I have an XBox that I barely touch aside from using it for Last.fm. I buy pretty much all my games on sale from Steam or other places that let me activate on Steam. If they didn't have those ridiculous sales all the time, I probably wouldn't buy very many games at all. As it stands now, I've bought dozens of games that I haven't even played. Some of them I may never play. They still got some money out of me though. I guess that says something for that model.

 
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58. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 13, 2011, 11:36 Creston
 
Jerykk wrote on Sep 13, 2011, 00:01:
What I really want to see is publishers and developers boycotting GameStop. No more GameInformer world exclusive previews. No more GameStop-exclusive pre-order DLC. No more ads designed exclusively for GameStop.

Although I can sympathize with developers who suffer from used sales, I can't really sympathize with publishers who continue to support GameStop in spite of it.

Yup, absolutely. They whine and whine and whine about Gamestop, then they bend fucking over to give them exclusive shit. Morons.

Creston
 
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57. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 13, 2011, 10:40 Verno
 
Creston wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 21:40:
^Drag0n^ wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 19:51:
But...the reality is that TV/Film/Music has always been royalty-based, and it seems clear that game publishers want to do the same.

Fine. Charge me 10 bucks to play the game, and they can set up whatever royalty function they want.

But that's not what mr game dev wants, now is it? No. Mr Game dev wants his game to cost 80 bucks, AND to get royalties on top of that.

"Don't we deserve it??!!" *whiny nasally voice*

Ugh.

Creston

This is really my problem with publishers in general. There is no such thing as enough money, they are not happy with anything. If they can sell TOR at $90 for some silly DDE package they will and the next year it will be $100 plus sub fees plus microtransactions and whatever else they dream up. I feel like my wallet is under constant threat and that I have to follow a lot of this stuff so I know whether I'm going to get ripped off or not. That's not how gaming should be.

In the end they need to decide whether they are selling a product or a service, they can't get away with trying to do both forever.
 
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56. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 13, 2011, 00:01 Jerykk
 
What I really want to see is publishers and developers boycotting GameStop. No more GameInformer world exclusive previews. No more GameStop-exclusive pre-order DLC. No more ads designed exclusively for GameStop.

Although I can sympathize with developers who suffer from used sales, I can't really sympathize with publishers who continue to support GameStop in spite of it.
 
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55. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 23:25 Beamer
 
yonder wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 20:40:
Beamer wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 12:37:
As far as used games, it's a used physical device.

It isn't really, though.
A game is code. The CD either works or it doesn't. There's very little value lost in a transfer of ownership.
A book is a physical item. It is defined by being a physical item. It is also an intimate item, as people tend to read in bed. Do you want to bring something with someone else's hair, snot, coffee stains, etc into bed? No, so used books drop drastically in value.
Cars are physical devices that get significant wear-and-tear, most of which isn't evident from an economically-viable glance. Plus someone has been farting in the driver's seat for years and possibly doing worse in the back seat. The value drastically drops.
Not to mention things like cars and houses, which have enormous used markets, cost so much that most could not buy a new one without selling an old one (in fact, many can never buy a new one, period, and would never without financing - how many Americans ever have over $20k in their savings account?)

Games, though? A used game sells at GameStop for 10% off at most. A $60 game sells for $5 off. A $20 game sells for $2 off. What other product holds value like this used? And games tend to be cheap, with the price falling even quicker. You save very little
buying used and often would save more if you just waited 6 months.

There's one obvious, glaring hole in your logic. If there was only *ONE* retail store that sold used books, you'd better believe they'd cost quite a bit more. You don't have to buy used games at GS. Ever been to a yard sale? Ebay? Swap.com? Buying a game from a yard sale for 15 bucks gets you a cheaper game and gets the re-seller more money in his (/her) pocket.

And the hole in your logic is that those sales are inconsequential. They are a tiny fraction of used sales.

If GameStop did not exist you would not see this war being waged by publishers and developers. But it does, and they can look at the 10k and see how many billions GameStop is making instead of them. They can see the GameStop CEO getting rich despite adding next to nothing to the industry.
 
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http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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54. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 22:12 nin
 
Deus Ex has been an incredible eye-opener (and a massive exception to the current state of affairs.)

And it's still under $40 on Amazon. I'm sure that helped its sales a bit, and I hope other publishers took notice.

 
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53. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 21:42 Creston
 
shponglefan wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 19:57:
Quboid wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 17:43:
Handshake

I didn't bother to research inflation, I'm surprised it's that high.

It is. I have a catalogue from 1988 where games sold between $35 and $50 a pop. That's between $65 and $90 today. Fortunately, games have actually gotten cheaper; and that's not even counting things like Steam where deals are just plain ridiculous.

I will gladly pay 80 bucks for a new game if that new game offers me as much content as the games back then did. Deus Ex has been an incredible eye-opener (and a massive exception to the current state of affairs.)

Game devs want to sell you games for 80 bucks, AND get royalties, AND get cuts of used sales, AND get to fuck your sister, all the while delivering a five hour, piece of shit console port.

Creston
 
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52. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 21:40 Creston
 
^Drag0n^ wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 19:51:
But...the reality is that TV/Film/Music has always been royalty-based, and it seems clear that game publishers want to do the same.

Fine. Charge me 10 bucks to play the game, and they can set up whatever royalty function they want.

But that's not what mr game dev wants, now is it? No. Mr Game dev wants his game to cost 80 bucks, AND to get royalties on top of that.

"Don't we deserve it??!!" *whiny nasally voice*

Ugh.

Creston
 
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51. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 20:40 yonder
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 12:37:
As far as used games, it's a used physical device.

It isn't really, though.
A game is code. The CD either works or it doesn't. There's very little value lost in a transfer of ownership.
A book is a physical item. It is defined by being a physical item. It is also an intimate item, as people tend to read in bed. Do you want to bring something with someone else's hair, snot, coffee stains, etc into bed? No, so used books drop drastically in value.
Cars are physical devices that get significant wear-and-tear, most of which isn't evident from an economically-viable glance. Plus someone has been farting in the driver's seat for years and possibly doing worse in the back seat. The value drastically drops.
Not to mention things like cars and houses, which have enormous used markets, cost so much that most could not buy a new one without selling an old one (in fact, many can never buy a new one, period, and would never without financing - how many Americans ever have over $20k in their savings account?)

Games, though? A used game sells at GameStop for 10% off at most. A $60 game sells for $5 off. A $20 game sells for $2 off. What other product holds value like this used? And games tend to be cheap, with the price falling even quicker. You save very little
buying used and often would save more if you just waited 6 months.

There's one obvious, glaring hole in your logic. If there was only *ONE* retail store that sold used books, you'd better believe they'd cost quite a bit more. You don't have to buy used games at GS. Ever been to a yard sale? Ebay? Swap.com? Buying a game from a yard sale for 15 bucks gets you a cheaper game and gets the re-seller more money in his (/her) pocket.
 
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50. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 20:34 yonder
 
Panickd wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 12:16:
As Steam has done for the PC so the console makers will do unto their audience as well.

Kudos on dumbest sentence of the day.
 
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49. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 20:32 yonder
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 10:39:
It's not "most," and "most" people that sell used games use the revenues from the sale to buy other used games. You don't have many people selling their used games for new games. Yeah, there are some that need to sell the game they preordered last week to fund their next preorder, but most realize how little value they get from that, plus GameStop will push them to get more used games.

So you save 10% off the purchase price (sometimes as little as $1.99) and you get another 20% off the sell-price. That makes a $20 game $14-$16, all into GameStop's pocket.

Way to paint an idiotic black-and-white picture of the used game market. Yes, GS is the #1 place to do it, but that's because it's virtually the *ONLY* videogame store. I highly doubt that the majority of used games are sold via GS. I've never turned anything into GS, and I've only bought 3 games from them (2 DS, 1 360). The vast majority of used games sales are done online or in-person (hey, you have such-n-such? I'll give you 10 bucks for it if you're done with it!) or in yard sales, etc, etc. And thats the best way to do it. I respect GS-hate, I just don't respect pretending that "most" gamers do it this way (then again, people are idiots... so you might be right... I still doubt it).

Either way, the industry war against used game sales is offensive (I'm okay with Project $10, just for the record). Have these people never been to a library or a used book store?
 
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48. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 19:57 shponglefan
 
Quboid wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 17:43:
Handshake

I didn't bother to research inflation, I'm surprised it's that high.

It is. I have a catalogue from 1988 where games sold between $35 and $50 a pop. That's between $65 and $90 today. Fortunately, games have actually gotten cheaper; and that's not even counting things like Steam where deals are just plain ridiculous.
 
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47. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 19:51 ^Drag0n^
 
Cutter wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 16:57:
The royalty arguement has always been bullshit. Do the guys who built your house or car continue to get money everytime it's used? Or the guys who made the stuff that made that stuff? Or the guys who provied the raw materials to make the stuff that made that stuff? Where does it stop? Perhaps the oil companies should get royalties for everything made with their petroleum or they shouldn't allow recycling! Where does the nonsense stop? As far as I'm concerned they don't have any right, just a whopping, unjustified sense of entitlement.

Honestly? I do agree with you (and Creston) on this.

But...the reality is that TV/Film/Music has always been royalty-based, and it seems clear that game publishers want to do the same.

It becomes a more complex item when you consider this: "How do you pay someone in advance for a product that you don't even know will sell?"

Believe me, I know it sounds stupid, but a lot of the people get paid based on how well a piece of entertainment sells, as opposed to a fixed dollar value, from the artist all the way down to the "boom boy" (what ever the hell that is).

Counter-argument would be, "just make sure you make a game that sells! Pay people a fair price for their work, and be done with it!"

And one could then argue ok, and we'd have CoD18:MW87 and Sims 2022 to look forward to the rest of our lives.

The old "be careful what you wish for" syndrome.

Just sayin'.

^D^
 
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46. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 19:42 ^Drag0n^
 
Creston wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 15:50:
^Drag0n^ wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 15:13:
Devs that make games worth reselling deserve the money to make more games like them.

No. Devs that make games worth KEEPING deserve the money to make more games like them.

Creston

Hahah! Fair enough. Point. Not quite what I meant, but it gave me a good chuckle...

^D^
 
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45. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 17:43 Quboid
 
shponglefan wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 17:11:
Drezden wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 15:39:
The real problem is, people went from paying 50 dollars for Quality games, to paying 60 dollars for shoddier games and console ports to PC.

This is a rose-coloured glasses view of history. There have always been good games and bad games; we just tend to forget the bad games more easily.

And one more thing to add, is that if you adjust for inflation, games are actually cheaper now than they were 15-20 years ago. If prices of games kept up with inflation, we'd be paying $80+ for new games.

Handshake

I didn't bother to research inflation, I'm surprised it's that high.
 
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- Quboid
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44. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 17:11 shponglefan
 
Drezden wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 15:39:
The real problem is, people went from paying 50 dollars for Quality games, to paying 60 dollars for shoddier games and console ports to PC.

This is a rose-coloured glasses view of history. There have always been good games and bad games; we just tend to forget the bad games more easily.

And one more thing to add, is that if you adjust for inflation, games are actually cheaper now than they were 15-20 years ago. If prices of games kept up with inflation, we'd be paying $80+ for new games.

This comment was edited on Sep 12, 2011, 17:33.
 
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43. Re: Morning Consolidation Sep 12, 2011, 17:09 shponglefan
 
Verno wrote on Sep 12, 2011, 11:09:
The industry has probably commissioned dozens of studies already and there's been more than a few press releases over the years about the impact of used sales. The trouble is that no one trusts them because they're from the industry so these discussions go in circles.

I've had a hard time finding the full studies. I've only seen one full study and from what I recall, it only talked about cannibalization of new games sales and concluded that some cannibalization is taking place. Everything else I've read has just been news reports, but not the actual studies themselves.
 
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