^Drag0n^ wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 18:53:
One positive thing out of this?

It shows that Steam can, should Valve want to, implement rental or playtime-limited trial releases of product(s) with few changes to their base software.

I actually think that is pretty damn cool.

^D^

Creston wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 16:43:
Now, are the piracy numbers that are being reduced through DRM (and that actually lead to would-be pirates going out and buying the game) enough to offset the lost sales? We don't really know. But seeing as how DRM rarely works (it's usually cracked before the game is even out), I'm going to say that, no, it doesn't.

Ruffiana wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:39:

Common sense says if you lock something up, it's less likely to be stolen.

Otherwise, you have no proof that it doesn't stop piracy, so your statement is an arguement from ignorance.

Unarguably, it probably does to some degree

I would argue that that's a smaller demographic than people who might be casual pirates.

but ultimately DRM is not there to help make more money through inconveniencing legitimate customers

it's a genuine concern for capital investmeent in an industry that needs a lot of capital to operate.

necrosis wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 15:39:

Darks wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:35:

Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:13:

Satoru wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:08:
One time online activation has been extremely effective against games being released before their street date. Pre-street date releases of PC games are pretty much in the minority now. Where as on the console side it's still a major problem.

I'm not sure about that, I think if I go back over the past two years there have been a fair number of pre-release leaks of PC titles with online activation. There's nothing really tying online activation to less pre-release piracy that can't also be the result of a dozen other factors.

I don't agree with your conclusion either, I think if anything it would be more related to the fact that digital distribution has taken over to a large extent that many of the old sources for early PC releases simply aren't around anymore. Most pre-release leaks come from review and retail sources. Publishers have wisened up to this in many ways and delay shipments as long as possible. They've also started using better methods of tracking review copies or sourcing them via DD sites.

The PC AAA side of the industry has largely waned while the consoles became more prevalent. Console games need more advance notice for many reasons so they probably get their copies much sooner and due to their increased popularity it is a lot easier to get your hands on a game pre-release and upload it somewhere.

Your Wrong, HAWX 2. There are no known cracks for that game. It’s one of those games where the Scene has not put a lot of effort into cracking. Again, they sit, wait and buy it when it’s cheap.

He's not wrong then, it's not unbreakable it's just that no one cares. The same scheme has been used in other titles and was circumvented.

I disagree Verno, until an actual crack comes out its unbreakable. That’s a win for Ubi. Try and word it any way you like, but there are no cracks for this game. So, I’m right in what I said. This also leads Ubi to belive their methods are working.

And because there is no solid proof there is a God he must exist? That is basically what you are saying.

People said Game Cube was "uncrackable" because there was nothing out there to run unsigned games for a really long time but it was because no one gave a shit. No one was really putting mass effort into it like they did with XBox and PS2.

Saying something 'is' because there is no proof it 'is not' is just stupid.

Darks wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 15:39:

I’m not buttheurt, I’m just saying that until there’s an actual crack for the game. Then it’s designated uncrackable. Whether they are trying to crack it or wanting to is no different. It’s still a game that’s sitting there uncracked. So explain to me the difference? All I’m pointing out is that Ubi can use this to gage their reasoning into their DRM success even though we all disagree with their doing it.

Darks wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:35:

Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:13:

Satoru wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:08:
One time online activation has been extremely effective against games being released before their street date. Pre-street date releases of PC games are pretty much in the minority now. Where as on the console side it's still a major problem.

I'm not sure about that, I think if I go back over the past two years there have been a fair number of pre-release leaks of PC titles with online activation. There's nothing really tying online activation to less pre-release piracy that can't also be the result of a dozen other factors.

I don't agree with your conclusion either, I think if anything it would be more related to the fact that digital distribution has taken over to a large extent that many of the old sources for early PC releases simply aren't around anymore. Most pre-release leaks come from review and retail sources. Publishers have wisened up to this in many ways and delay shipments as long as possible. They've also started using better methods of tracking review copies or sourcing them via DD sites.

The PC AAA side of the industry has largely waned while the consoles became more prevalent. Console games need more advance notice for many reasons so they probably get their copies much sooner and due to their increased popularity it is a lot easier to get your hands on a game pre-release and upload it somewhere.

Your Wrong, HAWX 2. There are no known cracks for that game. It’s one of those games where the Scene has not put a lot of effort into cracking. Again, they sit, wait and buy it when it’s cheap.

He's not wrong then, it's not unbreakable it's just that no one cares. The same scheme has been used in other titles and was circumvented.

I disagree Verno, until an actual crack comes out its unbreakable. That’s a win for Ubi. Try and word it any way you like, but there are no cracks for this game. So, I’m right in what I said. This also leads Ubi to belive their methods are working.

Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 15:28:

One might also point out that if Hawx had "unbreakable DRM", EVERYONE would be using it, and nothing would be crackable anymore...

Yeah exactly. It doesn't function differently than other UbiDRM used in their other offerings either, its just time consuming and HAWX2 isn't a big name release that groups will get any e-cred for cracking.

Funny how you always have a way of trying to twist things around to make it sound like you’re always right. And you’re not!

Using logic isn't twisting something and I have no idea why you are so butthurt about someone disagreeing with you.

One might also point out that if Hawx had "unbreakable DRM", EVERYONE would be using it, and nothing would be crackable anymore...

Funny how you always have a way of trying to twist things around to make it sound like you’re always right. And you’re not!

Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:58:

people who might be casual pirates

This kind of thinking is largely a fallacy now though. Most piracy is casual in nature these days. We're not in the days of people burning disks for friends anymore, the public at large is a lot more tech savvy than given credit for and I doubt most people even use the dvd drives in their computers anymore.

A more simple line of thought is does the bad PR from DRM outweigh other considerations? Ubisoft obviously seems to think so but I doubt their reasoning is rooted in any logical rationale. There are more sane approaches to DRM that other companies employ successfully without impacting consumer experiences to this degree.

I disagree Verno, until an actual crack comes out its unbreakable. That’s a win for Ubi. Try and word it any way you like, but there are no cracks for this game. So, I’m right in what I said. This also leads Ubi to belive their methods are working.

If you want to quibble about the wording then go right ahead but its not unbreakable, it's uncracked and we all know why. We've already wasted more words on HAWX 2 than it probably had in terms of buyers so frankly who gives a shit anyway. If a single unbreakable game existed would that suddenly proven the efficacy of DRM? No it wouldn't because then someone would have to explain its numerous failures too.

Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:58:

people who might be casual pirates

I disagree Verno, until an actual crack comes out its unbreakable. That’s a win for Ubi. Try and word it any way you like, but there are no cracks for this game. So, I’m right in what I said. This also leads Ubi to belive their methods are working.

If you want to quibble about the wording then go right ahead but its not unbreakable, it's uncracked and we all know why.

but ultimately DRM is not there to help make more money through inconveniencing legitimate customers.

Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:58:

people who might be casual pirates

This kind of thinking is largely a fallacy these days though. Most piracy is casual in nature these days. We're not in the days of people burning disks for friends anymore, the public at large is a lot more tech savvy than given credit for and I doubt most people even use the dvd drives in their computers anymore.

A more simple consideration is does the bad PR from DRM outweigh other considerations? Ubisoft obviously seems to think so but I doubt their reasoning is rooted in any logical rationale. There are more sane approaches to DRM that other companies employ successfully without impacting consumer experiences to this degree.

people who might be casual pirates

I disagree Verno, until an actual crack comes out its unbreakable. That’s a win for Ubi. Try and word it any way you like, but there are no cracks for this game. So, I’m right in what I said. This also leads Ubi to belive their methods are working.

Common sense says if you lock something up, it's less likely to be stolen.

Creston wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 11:34:

Alamar wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 11:22:
That's the distinction that consumers, or Bluesnewsians don't seem to get... DRM works... CD checks worked... Windows Activation works...

You have no idea whether it does or not. You THINK it does, but that's not cold hard fact. You have no numbers one way or the other.

Verno wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:13:

Satoru wrote on Aug 24, 2011, 13:08:
One time online activation has been extremely effective against games being released before their street date. Pre-street date releases of PC games are pretty much in the minority now. Where as on the console side it's still a major problem.

I'm not sure about that, I think if I go back over the past two years there have been a fair number of pre-release leaks of PC titles with online activation. There's nothing really tying online activation to less pre-release piracy that can't also be the result of a dozen other factors.

I don't agree with your conclusion either, I think if anything it would be more related to the fact that digital distribution has taken over to a large extent that many of the old sources for early PC releases simply aren't around anymore. Most pre-release leaks come from review and retail sources. Publishers have wisened up to this in many ways and delay shipments as long as possible. They've also started using better methods of tracking review copies or sourcing them via DD sites.

The PC AAA side of the industry has largely waned while the consoles became more prevalent. Console games need more advance notice for many reasons so they probably get their copies much sooner and due to their increased popularity it is a lot easier to get your hands on a game pre-release and upload it somewhere.

Your Wrong, HAWX 2. There are no known cracks for that game. It’s one of those games where the Scene has not put a lot of effort into cracking. Again, they sit, wait and buy it when it’s cheap.

He's not wrong then, it's not unbreakable it's just that no one cares. The same scheme has been used in other titles and was circumvented.