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Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM

There's an interview on IncGamers with Runic Games' Max Schaefer focusing on the recent revelation that Diablo III will have an auction house with real-money transactions and will require a persistent internet connection to play. These topics are relevant since Schaefer has previously worked on the Diablo series, and Runic's Torchlight 2 is widely regarded as the main competition for Diablo III. He explains how Torchlight 2 will feature neither RMTs nor always-on DRM, but that he understands what Blizzard is trying to accomplish: "Whatever you do, you have to make sacrifices. We sacrifice a cheat-free environment to give players the most options, they are sacrificing options and flexibility for security of the economy like you would in an MMO. I understand their approach and sympathize with the technical difficulties of what they are trying to do." He also says he does think that there are circumstances where always-on DRM can be considered ethical in a non-MMOG, but also notes that he's actually always considered Diablo II and III to be MMORPGs of a sort anyway: "I think that there really is no meaningful distinction between Diablo 3 (or Diablo 2) and an MMORPG. By my reckoning, it is one, but that's been my position for a long, long time."

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50. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 12, 2011, 09:58 Bhruic
 
That would be like someone quoting something you said and saying "SO DOES THAT MEAN THAT NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY ONLINE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO?!? YOU ARE SO WRONG" and someone calling that a rebuttal instead of a logical fallacy. You would think based on the second part of his post he gets how silly his post is, but I guess not.

There's a reason they had question marks at the end of the sentences. That's because they are questions - asking you to explain. Your entire argument seems to be:

You: "People are overreacting"
Us: "Why"
You: "Because I only played the game online"

No one is doubting you, we just want to know why you think "I only played online" is somehow a justification for claiming people are overreacting.
 
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49. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 16:25 Alamar
 
Verno wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 14:46:
I look at it as an either or thing. Generally though I try to "do the singleplayer" first then move onto multiplayer as the storyline stuff is usually more enjoyable without someone yakking at you in voice/text chat. I think it's kind of a hard sell to say that those games no have singleplayer though. It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck...

I used to do this... I like reading all the quests, experiencing all the 'story', even in those games 'you people' complain don't have it, like WoW... The problem however, is that I'll generally have someone to run through the content with RIGHT AWAY...

Which usually leads to people saying, I'll lvl to max really fast, then go through the quests later...

I don't do that; I force my playing partners to wait while I read all the quests through the first time, because I know I'm going to breeze through them later.

Although, I guess I'll end up with a hybrid... I obsess over games more than most of the people I know... And will likely (with D3, T2, GW2, etc) start 2 chars at launch... 1 to play with the wife, and 1 to play solo, and maybe another to play with friends that are at a different point than the char linked with the wife... In Rift, I got my first char to max, with the wife, then the second to max the same day, becuase I had effectively played twice as much as her.

-Alamar
 
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48. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 15:09 MattyC
 
Verno wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 14:33:
Who said anything about winning or losing? You posted your opinion and the reasoning behind it. We are disagreeing with the reasoning, not the fact that you have a unique opinion and your own experiences. It's not that difficult a concept to understand. People posted why they disagree and you just fall back to "well its my experience". Fine, if thats your answer then fair enough but it's not terribly logical nor does it relate very well to peoples problems with the discussion topics. Your gameplay experiences have no relation to how people are reacting here, how you played doesn't have anything to do with how they did or want to play games.

I wasn't referring to your overall opinion but to your supporting Bhruic's

Bhruic wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 11:42:
To me, Diablo has been an online only game.

I'm not sure what you are using this to explain? You only play it online, so that negates all the people who didn't? Or everyone should be forced to play it the same way you do? Everyone playing it single player is wrong?

as "He pretty much cut right through everything you've said with a succinct reply.". That would be like someone quoting something you said and saying "SO DOES THAT MEAN THAT NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO PLAY ONLINE BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO?!? YOU ARE SO WRONG" and someone calling that a rebuttal instead of a logical fallacy. You would think based on the second part of his post he gets how silly his post is, but I guess not. Hence the


My statements since the info came out have always been more along the lines of 'I get what you are saying and for many games I would agree with you, but here I think for myself and a lot of others it is a non issue' not 'you don't play it online? You shouldn't be allowed to play games and you are wrong'. Always on games are here, like it or not. I was just talking about it, not championing it.
 
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47. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 14:46 Verno
 
I look at it as an either or thing. Generally though I try to "do the singleplayer" first then move onto multiplayer as the storyline stuff is usually more enjoyable without someone yakking at you in voice/text chat. I think it's kind of a hard sell to say that those games no have singleplayer though. It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck...

This comment was edited on Aug 11, 2011, 14:51.
 
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46. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 14:40 LgFriess
 
I've always thought of the Diablo series as single player games with a multi player option. Starcraft 2 as well. It's funny, to me anyway, seeing many (most actually) think of it as multiplayer first. I do plan on exploring the MP option more on D3, however, as it seems like the game is really being pushed as MP first, SP second.  
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45. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 14:33 Verno
 
Who said anything about winning or losing? You posted your opinion and the reasoning behind it. We are disagreeing with the reasoning, not the fact that you have a unique opinion and your own experiences. It's not that difficult a concept to understand. People posted why they disagree and you just fall back to "well its my experience". Fine, if thats your answer then fair enough but it's not terribly logical nor does it relate very well to peoples problems with the discussion topics. Your gameplay experiences have no relation to how people are reacting here, how you played doesn't have anything to do with how they did or want to play games.  
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44. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 14:24 MattyC
 
Verno wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 13:24:
Not really. I have said my statements do not invalidate the opinions of anyone else

The foundation of your statement is inherently flawed was his point which you have seemingly missed, its the same thing I said earlier in much longer posts as well. Saying you experience the games one way is fine, thats not what anyone has an issue with. It's when you start saying other people are overreacting and your only basis for that is your own gameplay experiences that it becomes a problem. There will always be doom and gloom but there is a lot of reasonable points in here too so you take the good with the bad.

We have different opinions. I think people are overreacting for the most part, you don't. We just disagree, that is no reason to setup a straw man and imply that I think other opinions have zero merit when I never said anything like that. I offer my experience as an explanation for why I feel the way I do, not because it shows I am somehow "right" or that others are "wrong". I am just discussing not trying to win.


It seems like they sort of want D3 to be WoW lite. I don't find that ideal, but I still plan for it to be a launch day purchase.
 
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43. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 13:58 Undocumented Alien
 
It's when you start saying other people are overreacting and your only basis for that is your own gameplay experiences that it becomes a problem.

Especially considering the games history where SP (offline) was a core component, JUST as important as the MP (LAN/Internet/B.NET). To just up and take that away from the player base is obnoxious.

Hell, even the greed machine known as Hell Gate: London had an offline SP mode.

 
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42. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 13:24 Verno
 
Not really. I have said my statements do not invalidate the opinions of anyone else

The foundation of your statement is inherently flawed was his point which you have seemingly missed, its the same thing I said earlier in much longer posts as well. Saying you experience the games one way is fine, thats not what anyone has an issue with. It's when you start saying other people are overreacting and your only basis for that is your own gameplay experiences that it becomes a problem. There will always be doom and gloom but there is a lot of reasonable points in here too so you take the good with the bad.
 
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41. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 12:38 MattyC
 
Verno wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 12:28:
On the plus side, even playing an SP game, if I find some uber rare phatty lewts, I can throw them up on the real money AH and make a few bucks... Which may require jumping through some stupid hoops, but if it's worth it, maybe I'll quit my job and do it full time (not too likely heh).

Hah, good point. I might put up with being online if it means I can sell imaginary items to some moron.

MattyC wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 11:51:
Only if you ignored all my other posts in this thread...

I've read all of your posts in this thread and it just seems like you have no rebuttal. He pretty much cut right through everything you've said with a succinct reply.

Not really. I have said my statements do not invalidate the opinions of anyone else. I just didn't like the threads being all doom and gloom. Some of us are ok with this, just only for certain games. Diablo 3 requiring me to be online? Thats fine by me. The next Final Fantasy doing the same? Not a chance.


And he didn't really cut through my argument. He set up a straw man. I never said anything like what he implied.
 
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40. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 12:28 Verno
 
On the plus side, even playing an SP game, if I find some uber rare phatty lewts, I can throw them up on the real money AH and make a few bucks... Which may require jumping through some stupid hoops, but if it's worth it, maybe I'll quit my job and do it full time (not too likely heh).

Hah, good point. I might put up with being online if it means I can sell imaginary items to some moron.

MattyC wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 11:51:
Only if you ignored all my other posts in this thread...

I've read all of your posts in this thread and it just seems like you have no rebuttal. He pretty much cut right through everything you've said with a succinct reply.
 
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39. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 12:05 Alamar
 
Personally, I'm more concerned that the last gameplay video I saw, on some trash site (so that didn't help), bored me... I try to take that with some measure or anti-expectation, as the game will feel much different than a gameplay video will feel...

As for the online only, I don't like it, but I'm fairly certain it won't ever be an issue.

On the plus side, even playing an SP game, if I find some uber rare phatty lewts, I can throw them up on the real money AH and make a few bucks... Which may require jumping through some stupid hoops, but if it's worth it, maybe I'll quit my job and do it full time (not too likely heh).

As for 'on topic'... Someone already pointed it out fairly succinctly... Not putting in features loathed by the general populace and pointing that out, is just good PR : )

Looking forward to T2, but hoping it's more fun, and more replayable, than T1... I made the mistake of using that heirloom system to pass on that one piece of gear, but then made a character I really didn't like... Neat idea, but it backfired : )

-Alamar

 
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38. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 11:51 MattyC
 
Bhruic wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 11:42:
To me, Diablo has been an online only game.

I'm not sure what you are using this to explain? You only play it online, so that negates all the people who didn't? Or everyone should be forced to play it the same way you do? Everyone playing it single player is wrong?

It'd be like me saying that if I only played Diablo solo, if they completely removed all the multiplayer aspects, that shouldn't bother anyone.

Only if you ignored all my other posts in this thread...
 
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37. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 11:48 Alamar
 
FloorPie wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 01:53:
I have no idea how one can consider D1/D2 anything near a MMO. D3 with the auctions for cash etc, sure but even then its certainly not "massive". How many players in one "game instance"? 4? D2 was what, 6-8 people in one game/server?

Guild Wars was considered by many fan(atics) for years to be a massive... and All it differed from D2 in that regard, was a graphical meeting place...

-Alamar
 
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36. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 11:42 Bhruic
 
To me, Diablo has been an online only game.

I'm not sure what you are using this to explain? You only play it online, so that negates all the people who didn't? Or everyone should be forced to play it the same way you do? Everyone playing it single player is wrong?

It'd be like me saying that if I only played Diablo solo, if they completely removed all the multiplayer aspects, that shouldn't bother anyone.
 
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35. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 11:21 Yakubs
 
Fact is, there's no consumer-serving reason why they can't have a single-player offline mode, regardless of whether individual consumers are or are not OK with it. They can lie all they want but they're making it online-only due to greed, greed, and greed.

So, yeah, be a Blizzard apologist but at least understand what you're apologizing for.
 
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34. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 11:03 Undocumented Alien
 
I am not a fan of always on DRM. I am just trying to be reasonable with my complaints. To me, Diablo has been an online only game

But the FACT is, that is was not an online only game, it gave you the FLEXIBILITY to either play SP (NO internet connection) OR MP online (with LAN/Internet/B.NET), why can't THAT maintain with Diablo 3?

I haven't seen anyone state why the SP portion that people will play boring or not has to have a persistent connection. How does my SP toon affect your online toon? It doesn't, even if I hack the crap out of it, it DOESN'T affect your online experience.

I have ZERO issues with those that want to use B.NET as an online gaming hub where you are mostly assured that other players toons will not be hacked and get a good MP experience. If I buy D3, I *might* do that to, but I would like to play D3 SP OFFLINE.

If they go the SCII route (or even Steam) and provide an offline mode then all is well, right now I don't even see that option.

 
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33. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 11:00 Verno
 
Yakubs wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 10:47:
Are you serious? That's like saying that your biggest complaint with Deep Throat Denise IV was the lack of storyline.

Listen Deep Throat Denise IV had a great script, alright Disguise

But yes, I am serious. I need a storyline to keep things moving, something I can remotely get into. Torchlight was all about busting down the 4th wall which got obnoxious after awhile. Yes I am playing a Diablo clone hahaha I get it game, thank you. Torchlight was a great shell of a game but everything felt like placeholders, that's the best way I can think of to describe it.

I am not a fan of always on DRM. I am just trying to be reasonable with my complaints. To me, Diablo has been an online only game. This greatly reduces the hacking/cheating that has always been rampant in Diablo and to be honest if internet wasn't available I wouldn't bother playing a Diablo game anway.

Yes that's all wonderful but again its all about you and this isn't. People aren't necessarily being all doom and gloom about it, some of us might still purchase the game despite reservations. It's about making a reasonable compromise to accommodate people who can't always be married to their internet connection which they shouldn't really need to be for the SP portion of the game.

To anyone who played Diablo online it has been an always online game since Diablo II. Open Battle.net there was a nightmare. It was all hackers and cheaters. You couldn't go on regular Battle.net with a single player character so it basically was an online only game.

The online requirement doesn't give the consumer anything, your examples are all related to the multiplayer side of the game and it was a problem previously solved with open/closed battlenet anyway. People aren't asking to interfere with that, they just want an alternative for doing the storyline portion of the game. It's a reasonable expectation considering the history of these games, the functionality is already built and that it isn't exactly outside the realm of possibility someone would want to play Diablo 3 without internet.
 
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32. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 10:47 Yakubs
 
Verno wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 10:23:
My biggest complaint with Torchlight was the lack of storyline

Are you serious? That's like saying that your biggest complaint with Deep Throat Denise IV was the lack of storyline.
 
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31. Re: Runic on Diablo III vs. Torchlight 2 RMTs and DRM Aug 11, 2011, 10:46 MattyC
 
Verno wrote on Aug 11, 2011, 10:15:
Are there? I haven't seen any video of such. There could be, but I would imagine with an always on requirement it is just 'play game' and you can invite people to your game or not.

I was referring to Diablo 2 there.

I don't know/care what most people perceive about games with stories. To me some games are just made on playing together.

Ok but that has nothing to do with a persistent connection being a requirement for playing through the campaign when you don't need other players to do it. It's a technical requirement that doesn't make any sense except on a business level. People aren't asking that you play the game any differently, you can continue to treat them as multiplayer experiences and only play with your friends blah blah blah etc. They just want to be able to play them as boring Rogue clones and so on and if their connection happens to drop not interrupt the experience. Blizzard solved this problem already with Starcraft 2 and offline activation hashes. It's a proven method of DRM that works reasonably for all parties.

I am not a fan of always on DRM. I am just trying to be reasonable with my complaints. To me, Diablo has been an online only game. This greatly reduces the hacking/cheating that has always been rampant in Diablo and to be honest if internet wasn't available I wouldn't bother playing a Diablo game anway.

Again, I can see why some people wouldn't like this but the "OMG CONTROL DRM SKY FALLING DEATH AND DOOM!" seems silly. To anyone who played Diablo online it has been an always online game since Diablo II. Open Battle.net there was a nightmare. It was all hackers and cheaters. You couldn't go on regular Battle.net with a single player character so it basically was an online only game.

With D3 I am willing to accept online only as having benefits outside the realm of DRM. It fits with my play style and offers me benefits similar to the way Steam is restrictive but gives me things in return.
 
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