Send News. Want a reply? Read this. More in the FAQ.   News Forum - All Forums - Mobile - PDA - RSS Headlines  RSS Headlines   Twitter  Twitter
Customize
User Settings
Styles:
LAN Parties
Upcoming one-time events:

Regularly scheduled events

APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month

The APB-Reloaded Website announces May 18 as the launch date for formal open beta testing of the upcoming resurrection of the APB: All Points Bulletin, the online sandbox shooter. That said, they also announce that most everyone interested in being a tester will probably be offered access to the beta before then:

However, between now and the Open Beta date (ie for the next two weeks), we will progressively permit access to MOST PEOPLE (17 or older in the US and 18 or older in the rest of the world) who do two things (1) creates (or already has) a GamersFirst Account with the appropriate info (see the link to the right of the blog) and then (2) submits his/her email (matching the G1 account) at the front of the APB page (www.gamersfirst.com/apb) in the "Newsletter Signup Email form." This will let us slowly turn up "the heat" on our servers before going fully "open."

View
19 Replies. 1 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 ] Older >

19. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 5, 2011, 04:26 Veterator
 
|oR|jonvall wrote on May 4, 2011, 22:34:
Last time...ready? CLOSED BETA. There....your entire argument has now been rendered null and void! Check back in 2 weeks!

I look forward to the complete write off of any discussion then as well. I'll have to contemplate what will be the excuse then. I'm leaning toward "It's not retail yet."
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
18. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 22:34 |oR|jonvall
 
Veterator wrote on May 4, 2011, 21:13:
|oR|jonvall wrote on May 4, 2011, 20:18:
It ISN'T in open beta yet....so WHEN IT IS in open beta all your arguments will then become relevant.

I'd be happy to see them fix the problems prior to open beta, I'm not saying otherwise. But I am glad you'll concede that there are issues with the game, even if it has to be a different phase of beta. I would like to see the game become more fun to play, but right now as a new player you gotta put up with a lot of long term players beating you without a chance in hell of opposition 9 times out of 10 for hours on end.

But you seem to think you know better because you're an expert on the game after less than a week of playing.

Unless the problems are intended, I don't see what experience with the game has to do with being able to recognize flaws or problematic consequences of game designs. I would assume they want to attract more players to their game, so it seems like letting people (especially new players) actually mention the problems would be beneficial.

As far as them taking money....you don't have to give them any money...so why are you bitching?

It's not really bitching, I don't plan on giving them my money until I find an enjoyable experience. It's more pointing out that they are taking in cash for a game that's influx to the point of systems not being solidified/balanced/fixed/implemented yet.

Oh and btw....this shows the depth of knowledge you have for this game....RTW is short for Real Time Worlds.

Yeah I looked it up after I posted then figured it really wasn't important for the discussion to change one line that had no bearing on my side. But, I have at least played both sides which I think is more important to discussing game issues than knowing who had hands in creating the initial release of this game.

Last time...ready? CLOSED BETA. There....your entire argument has now been rendered null and void! Check back in 2 weeks!
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
17. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 21:13 Veterator
 
|oR|jonvall wrote on May 4, 2011, 20:18:
It ISN'T in open beta yet....so WHEN IT IS in open beta all your arguments will then become relevant.

I'd be happy to see them fix the problems prior to open beta, I'm not saying otherwise. But I am glad you'll concede that there are issues with the game, even if it has to be a different phase of beta. I would like to see the game become more fun to play, but right now as a new player you gotta put up with a lot of long term players beating you without a chance in hell of opposition 9 times out of 10 for hours on end.

But you seem to think you know better because you're an expert on the game after less than a week of playing.

Unless the problems are intended, I don't see what experience with the game has to do with being able to recognize flaws or problematic consequences of game designs. I would assume they want to attract more players to their game, so it seems like letting people (especially new players) actually mention the problems would be beneficial.

As far as them taking money....you don't have to give them any money...so why are you bitching?

It's not really bitching, I don't plan on giving them my money until I find an enjoyable experience. It's more pointing out that they are taking in cash for a game that's influx to the point of systems not being solidified/balanced/fixed/implemented yet.

Oh and btw....this shows the depth of knowledge you have for this game....RTW is short for Real Time Worlds.

Yeah I looked it up after I posted then figured it really wasn't important for the discussion to change one line that had no bearing on my side. But, I have at least played both sides which I think is more important to discussing game issues than knowing who had hands in creating the initial release of this game.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
16. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 20:18 |oR|jonvall
 
Veterator wrote on May 4, 2011, 17:59:
The game would be really good if they fixed the issues I listed, but that's when they fix them not when they announce they plan to fix them. And as of right now as far as I can tell they are accepting money for items in their cash shop, so they are essentially selling the game content already...which is a retail step.

But it doesn't matter, their blog says........

I edited all the other stuff for space. Listen....the bottom line is that this is a closed beta....PERIOD! It ISN'T in open beta yet....so WHEN IT IS in open beta all your arguments will then become relevant...BUT UNTIL THEN it's a closed beta and you have to expect all the problems you're having. That is the purpose of a closed beta....there...I hope that clears up all the issues you seem to have.

You can try and make an argument that they didn't yet fix this or that...but if you haven't been here since the beginning of the beta, which you already stated you haven't been playing but for 2 or 3 days, you wouldn't know what or how fast they fix stuff. G1 is very responsive and actually, believe it or not, want to make money with this game! GHASP! They are in the forums....they post in the forums...they read the forums....they have the best communication of any game company I have ever seen! So when they say they're going to fix something I can only believe, based of the past 2 months of seeing them fix what they say they're going to fix, that they are working on it and it WILL be fixed. But you seem to think you know better because you're an expert on the game after less than a week of playing.

As far as them taking money....you don't have to give them any money...so why are you bitching? They're offering a deal to all closed beta participants that want to take advantage of it....you don't feel it's worth your money then by all means keep your wallet in your pocket. I feel the game is worth my money so spent $40 and took advantage of the deal. I just received my $40 back yesterday and plan to use that money during the next few months when I see what other goodies they are going to add to the Armas Store.

The best thing about this game is that it's free to play...if you don't like it you can move along...if you do then great!

Oh and btw....this shows the depth of knowledge you have for this game....RTW is short for Real Time Worlds. I'm not going to go into who RTW is or what role they've played in this game but if you're interested you can Google them.

 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
15. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 17:59 Veterator
 
The poster with the list obviously failed to realize that he was playing a CLOSED BETA!

Oh I realize it's called a beta, but I also realize they are taking money into their cash shop. If they are accepting money into their system they must think it's pretty much ready for prime time. Which is why they are moving into open beta. Which at that point most people would agree a game in open beta needs minor changes and stress testing. We'll cover that later.

G1 let a lot of players into the closed beta that thought they were playing a polished game that was ready for release.....that is not what a closed beta is!

Total agree that a closed beta is not meant to be polished, but moving into Open beta in this state is not what open beta is either. These problems should be mostly cleared up prior to being in open beta so they can balance a near finished system once the flood hits. Not a broken system that you are telling people will be fixed soon, otherwise they are not actually polishing up anything if they plan on replacing it or revamping it. If they replace it before open beta, then woops my bad. But it's still in this state as of right now.

This guy OBVIOUSLY doesn't read the dev's blog or keep up with the latest developments in the game.

They have servers on the West Coast only in the US....and servers in Germany, I believe, for the EU....so yes lag is an issue.
Yes lag is an issue, although I have no way to know if the lag will be gone once they open a DC location or majorly worse once open beta arrives because the server can't handle it's current load of people.

The cheaters are talked about and they mentioned that they are letting the cheaters do their thing in order to observe them.

If something comes of it great, but right now you're pretty much saying they are letting the cheaters do whatever the hell they want. So.....yeah.

Matchmaking is being worked on and is a lot better than it was. They plan on releasing a whole new system, along with a district ONLY for low level players....if they choose to play there...so they don't get into matches with higher ranked players.

They can plan all they want, right now this doesn't exist. Once it's in, if it's setup properly then great. And that's great that matchmaking is being worked on, but again...obviously flawed system being brought into open beta is not useful.

Vehicle griefing has been fixed....if you're not in a mission then your car will bounce off of the dump truck instead of exploding. Can you still pin a car? I think so....but they reduced the amount of trucks so this isn't even an issue anymore....and if you're stupid enough to let a dump truck pin you then you deserve to be pinned!

Saw 4 dump trucks at once just 2 days ago. If they get you up against a wall or a stack of cars you explode. Mission or not. And it still doesn't address the vehicle griefing of non-mission based people parking their cars on points or in doorways to block entrance to objectives. So.....vehicle griefing DOES exist.

I don't play as Enforcer so I can't tell if it's better or worse than a Criminal....also...I have no idea what his point on that was.

Subtly implying that since you haven't seen it or experienced it..it doesn't exist. Just like the point prior.

Driving is 10 times better than RTW and you're not going to just jump in a car and drive like Mario Andretti! You need to LEARN how to drive....this isn't a console game dude! The cars are awesome imo!

I have no idea what RTW is. I don't expect to be an excellent driver like Rainman. I do expect the car to turn and that you're handbrake at barely creeping speeds doesn't make you slide 50-100 feet. I've had a number of vehicles that showed no damage that acted like they were busted to hell. So I'll let you explain it away for me, my guess is lag and/or texture problem with a possible issue in driving code where vehicles adopt properties of vehicles near them.


The stuff isn't expensive.....You can get a bunch of great tier 1 guns
as soon as you complete a couple of missions! The guns are in the $3000 range and you can earn up to $1000 per winning mission. Also you can rob stores or mug people and make a ton of money that way. You can make about $1000 per full van load of stuff you've taken from jacking stores!

So assuming you like to play against others....you don't mind if the enforcers have no avenue for earnings like the criminals have. Their avenue is basically stopping criminals..so if they can't find someone doing this stuff...all they can do is patrol around looking for stolen cars that were abandoned and taking them in for some cash. For which to identify the stolen vehicles you have to get out of your car and mouse over the vehicles. They are only stolen if a criminal took a car and it might only be when they do it during non-mission times. Cars taken by enforcers are not stolen or rewarded in anyway if you find them abandoned. If you lose all the time, your money gain is pathetic. Which right now if you are just starting out and getting paired up against high ranking guys, you get crap standing and crap cash versus winning. You just can't win with how the matchmaking system is being exploited.

What he calls "Manhunt", which isn't what it's called, is the idiot getting witnessed by the cops and then the cops coming to kick his ass! Anybody with a brain knows if you're a criminal you don't rob stores or mug people alone....if you do you're going to get a shit storm of cops come and get you...is it any different in real life?

Actually what you are describing is what I covered in item #5. What I mean by manhunts are when you gain level 5 notoriety and some kind of bounty or whatever is placed on you. I think it's a pretty appropriate term to describe what is happening. But they end within a minute, never last more than a couple minutes on the rare occasion they go past a minute. I don't even know what the critera for enforcers are to be hunted but I've seen a few get flagged for it.

Mid-mission pairings...yes he is somewhat correct.....this is another thing that is being worked on and it actually involves the new matchmaking system I spoke about above.

Can't even give me a correct on that one, because they "plan on fixing it".....funny.

Back up calls....Pfffttt...so the idiot let himself get run over and this is the games fault? LOL!! Again...this is also included in the new matchmaking system.

Uh, that was not the point I was making. It was that you can call for backup on missions and tie up other players on missions that there is absolutely no help they can aid you with. Or cause them to take a near instant loss. I made the point about being ran over to show the guy has a 20-30 second lead on me because I have to respawn and he has a car freely available since he just ran me over in it. But it's good that you focused on the non-important part and found a way to name call. And again imply this will all be magically fixed in a new system you haven't seen.

This guy is obviously not aware of the term CLOSED BETA....this is where much of the balancing issues, optimization issues and just about any of the complaints this guy brought up are worked on and improved.

I do realize this. I also realize they are moving into OPEN BETA. Which will end CLOSED BETA. So unless this magical matchmaking system is completely non-flawed, which let's be honest..no MMO development group gets it right on a major fix covering multiple issues. They don't have a matchmaking system that is even close to adequate as of right now, and they have two weeks to get one that is. During which time they will be letting in more people and will have to deal with growth issues on top of the list of problems I originally put in. But this is basically the same argument we get when games in OPEN BETA announce going retail in a month with major issues and never get them fixed. Despite what the dev posts say or the blog posts say, or the people who "call out" others for listing issues existing in the game as it stands at that moment. Using the excuse that ITS A BETA....SO........

The game would be really good if they fixed the issues I listed, but that's when they fix them not when they announce they plan to fix them. And as of right now as far as I can tell they are accepting money for items in their cash shop, so they are essentially selling the game content already...which is a retail step.

But it doesn't matter, their blog says........

This comment was edited on May 4, 2011, 18:05.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
14. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 17:42 Ant
 
|oR|jonvall wrote on May 4, 2011, 17:40:
Ant wrote on May 4, 2011, 11:04:
Is the game any better than the first beta before the original/previous company shut down last year?


Much.....
Really? I guess I will have to try it when I can! Is it fun at least?
 
Avatar 1957
 
Ant @ The Ant Farm: http://antfarm.ma.cx and Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net ...
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
13. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 17:40 |oR|jonvall
 
Ant wrote on May 4, 2011, 11:04:
Is the game any better than the first beta before the original/previous company shut down last year?


Much.....
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
12. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 11:04 Ant
 
Is the game any better than the first beta before the original/previous company shut down last year?  
Avatar 1957
 
Ant @ The Ant Farm: http://antfarm.ma.cx and Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net ...
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
11. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 10:51 |oR|jonvall
 
The poster with the list obviously failed to realize that he was playing a CLOSED BETA!

G1 let a lot of players into the closed beta that thought they were playing a polished game that was ready for release.....that is not what a closed beta is!

This guy OBVIOUSLY doesn't read the dev's blog or keep up with the latest developments in the game.

They have servers on the West Coast only in the US....and servers in Germany, I believe, for the EU....so yes lag is an issue.

The cheaters are talked about and they mentioned that they are letting the cheaters do their thing in order to observe them.

Matchmaking is being worked on and is a lot better than it was. They plan on releasing a whole new system, along with a district ONLY for low level players....if they choose to play there...so they don't get into matches with higher ranked players.

Vehicle griefing has been fixed....if you're not in a mission then your car will bounce off of the dump truck instead of exploding. Can you still pin a car? I think so....but they reduced the amount of trucks so this isn't even an issue anymore....and if you're stupid enough to let a dump truck pin you then you deserve to be pinned!

I don't play as Enforcer so I can't tell if it's better or worse than a Criminal....also...I have no idea what his point on that was.

Driving is 10 times better than RTW and you're not going to just jump in a car and drive like Mario Andretti! You need to LEARN how to drive....this isn't a console game dude! The cars are awesome imo!

The stuff isn't expensive.....You can get a bunch of great tier 1 guns
as soon as you complete a couple of missions! The guns are in the $3000 range and you can earn up to $1000 per winning mission. Also you can rob stores or mug people and make a ton of money that way. You can make about $1000 per full van load of stuff you've taken from jacking stores!

What he calls "Manhunt", which isn't what it's called, is the idiot getting witnessed by the cops and then the cops coming to kick his ass! Anybody with a brain knows if you're a criminal you don't rob stores or mug people alone....if you do you're going to get a shit storm of cops come and get you...is it any different in real life?

Mid-mission pairings...yes he is somewhat correct.....this is another thing that is being worked on and it actually involves the new matchmaking system I spoke about above.

Back up calls....Pfffttt...so the idiot let himself get run over and this is the games fault? LOL!! Again...this is also included in the new matchmaking system.

This guy is obviously not aware of the term CLOSED BETA....this is where much of the balancing issues, optimization issues and just about any of the complaints this guy brought up are worked on and improved.
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
10. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 09:25 JoeNapalm
 

Sounds like a laundry list of the stuff they were gonna fix.

That's a shame, really, if they haven't.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
 
Avatar 54497
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
9. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 4, 2011, 03:03 Veterator
 
Got into the game last Friday, didn't get to play until Saturday. It is an interesting game and it's a good "idea", but the implementation is really irritating overall.

1) Cheating. People openly talk about it in the channels. You can never be too sure of whose cheating if they aren't really blatant with it. But I've had people on the opposing side of a mission hunt me down 300-400 meters away from objectives while I was inside a building just waiting to see if they would. I had them do it three times in a row during the same mission. So not only is there some kind of wallhack and aimbot cheat, they also have some sort of beacon hack. I realize some of the missions are "hunt and kill" missions, but this was a guard/deliver mission and I wasn't carrying the pick up.

2) Matchmaking is horrible. I heard people talking about it when I was standing close to a group using VOIP. Also had it happen to me. They have found a way to purposefully trick the matchmaking system to where they keep their team with 2-3 full rank enemies and invite in low level to fill the gap. Then when everyone readies up, they boot the low level. Some how this makes the system match them up against teams with much lower ranked people. Even if they aren't exploiting it. Having your team full of people with the newbie weapon or their first weapon unlock, versus a team full of people with weapon mods, body armor and other things is complete bullshit. 1vs1 you can't kill these guys. I saw them take a full on grenade hit and a bunch of shots from me and still kill me.

3) Vehicle griefing is possible in the dump trucks still. You just pin someone against a wall and keep driving forward. Eventually the vehicle will explode. You can even explode a car instantly by pinning it between two buildings where it's length is boxed in between two walls...it will explode with no warning. But you can also block doorways so people can't even get into buildings to guard points or park cars in big pile ups on "captures" where they can't stand in the point due to the cars. And you can't move the cars if someone is in them whose not part of the mission or it's someone's "personal" vehicle they left there to grief.

4) Lag, it gets bad. And I met a number of people playing from south america. So.....it lags for me and Im in the states, some of these guys are basically playing in a time altered dimension. I saw this result in me getting killed through vehicles because on their end I was just standing out in the open scratching my head.

5) Being an Enforcer is not nearly as interesting as playing the other side. Enforcers can arrest people, but it's pretty friggin tough since your teammates will shoot them dead most times. You can recover stolen goods.....only if someone whose not on a mission decides to partake in mugging, ram raiding, jacking cars. You can even witness people doing this, little cuffs appear next to their name. Most of the time though...you're either on a mission when you see them. I've recovered maybe 4-5 cars, and one loaded with stuff they left because it was exploding....I drove it to a gas station in time. And I caught exactly one criminal performing acts that I could actually witness and act on. And I spent hours trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. On the flipside, you can make a LOT of money finding a corner to mug people in, or chop shopping cars.......I think I got busted 3 times during my 3-4 hours mugging people on busy streets. And I never got caught when I was purposefully hiding in a corner so I could get a lot of items before I ran them in. Boosting cars is super easy too, just drive a load of them to the local chop shop and every so often between muggings run over and turn one in. It has like a 2-3 minute cooldown.

6) Driving in the game is just "off", it's fun at times. But some vehicles drive like they've got a flat tire even if they are near pristine.

7) Stuff is very expensive and the "good" stuff that starts to make you competitive against the higher ranks....is even more so. Plus you need a fairly high rank to even get the stuff.

8) Manhunts. They end pretty much instantly when they start. I mugged until I enabled it twice, I had 5 people show up to kill me in under 60 seconds each time. You can't stand against that. So I think it's kind of a useless implementation as there's virtually no bonus in getting to that point. You're better off just laundering any money you have an resetting your notoriety as a criminal. Since you can't enjoy rank 5 notoriety for more than few seconds.

9) Mid-mission pairings. It will literally send you to a point that's across the map for 2-3 steps....where the team who did the prior steps is usually within 200 meters of it. You're normally 500-800m away sometimes as much as 1km. And your team is usually in the same situation, so you offer little to no resistance on critical steps and end up losing and getting poor scores for time wasted. This is something they should take into account and put the steps more in the middle so you can at least try.

10) Backup calls, it allows people to call for backup at stupid times. We backed up a dude who promptly lost his mission. And I've been able to call for backup on my missions were the enforcers "witness" me....which usually follows with them running me over during mugging. Im dead for 20-30 seconds and they are across town on the way to their drop off, no way Ill ever catch them. And there's about a minute on the clock. Where I can call for backup that unless I was extremely lucky...those people would be even further away than I.

Im sure there's plenty more...but those things above bug the hell out of me. They happen often enough that unless you can find an instance where people aren't gaming the system, it's absolutely no fun to play the game unless you just mug and boost cars as a criminal to earn rank and cash to avoid the PITA missions.


 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
8. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 3, 2011, 19:00 HorrorScope
 
I'm not sure why the truck should be fixed. Looks like good times.  
Avatar 17232
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
7. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 3, 2011, 18:47 |oR|jonvall
 
sir wrote on May 3, 2011, 17:56:
The garbage truck thing isn't fixed, because I was making roadkill of hapless players using one earlier today


No you weren't! ROFL!! TROLL ON!!
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
6. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 3, 2011, 17:56 sir
 
The garbage truck thing isn't fixed, because I was making roadkill of hapless players using one earlier today  
Avatar 17694
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
5. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 3, 2011, 17:27 Cutter
 
I tried if for a week. It sucked.
 
Avatar 25394
 

"Nobody wants to be nobody in America. Ed is the apotheosis of a prevailing American syndrome. It used to be that someone became famous because they were special. Now people are considered special just for being famous. Fame, itself, is its own virtue.
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
4. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 3, 2011, 17:10 |oR|jonvall
 
The "garbage truck" thing is fixed.....move on...nothing to see here!

The game is fun as hell!
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
3. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 3, 2011, 14:53 JoeNapalm
 
DangerDog wrote on May 3, 2011, 14:43:
Never played it but the garbage truck griefing video on youtube is rather funny, of course for those being griefed I imagine they're not laughing.

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/59871/Heres-How-People-Grief-In-APB


I'm not going to say I never witnessed idiots in big trucks trying to be a pain in the ass...but when I did see it, generally it came down to one of a few scenarios:

- The trucks are big and slow, and the griefers couldn't drive well enough to be a real problem, or,

- Changing instances was pretty quick and easy (sadly, you had to be willing to do so at the drop of a hat because of clans of known hax0rs, anyway).


The video makes it seem like it would be hard to avoid, but those are cuts of when they've had a long straight run to get up to speed and manage to hit square on vs someone who's already engaged in a firefight or otherwise damaged and/or distracted. In most of these scenarios, you'd be past the dork in the truck so fast they'd still be trying to turn around when you were completing the NEXT mission.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
 
Avatar 54497
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
2. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 3, 2011, 14:43 DangerDog
 
Never played it but the garbage truck griefing video on youtube is rather funny, of course for those being griefed I imagine they're not laughing.

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/59871/Heres-How-People-Grief-In-APB
 
Avatar 6174
 
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
1. Re: APB-Reloaded Open Beta This Month May 3, 2011, 11:52 linfosoma
 
I've been playing this game lately, if I had paid for it on release I would be pissed, but as a free game it's quite enjoyable.  
Reply Quote Edit Delete Report
 
19 Replies. 1 pages. Viewing page 1.
< Newer [ 1 ] Older >


footer

Blue's News logo