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Duke Nukem Forever Interview

Gearbox's Pitchford On Gaming's Grown-Up World on Gamasutra converses with Gearbox boss Randy Pitchford about Duke Nukem Forever, and why he feels there isn't "a line" games shouldn't cross. "Is there a line [to cross]? If our medium is art, how could there be a line?" he posits. "How could we allow there to be a line, and who gets to decide what the line is? That's a very slippery slope -- there should not be a line."

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37. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 17:50 Matshock
 
Prez wrote on Apr 25, 2011, 17:39:
There's an entire internet full of porn and you think this is cool? Are you 12?" kind of way.

Which is EXACTLY my response to it all. I've seen Disney movie trailers that were more titillating than anything I've seen in DNF so far. Still, unless immediate danger to public safety is involved (the old yelling "fire" in a crowded theater example) I will always and forever remain steadfastly against censorship of any form. Like you, I'd instead counsel good judgement, so I think we're mostly on the same page, at least conceptually. As far as DNF goes, however, while base and puerile, nothing in DNF even remotely seems over the line to me. Honestly, like Pitchford, I don't think there is a line, per se.

BAH- I never asked for authoritarian intervention against GB. Others assigned that argument to me falsely and you just regurgitated it.

I regurgitated nothing except your own words at you; I can't help it if you take general statements personally.

Notice I said: "What I do have a problem with is someone telling me...". If I meant you, I would have said "What I do have a problem with is YOU telling me...". I even went so far as to defend your right to your opinion; how you can take offense to anything what I wrote is beyond me.

Prez wrote:
...someone telling me that because it crosses the line for them, it should be disallowed for everyone.
 
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36. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 17:48 Hoop
 
Pitchford is that incredibly immature kid in class that no matter how much others show disapproval he just keeps going until snot bubbles shoot out his nose.

This comment was edited on Apr 25, 2011, 22:11.
 
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Um .. Behind you...
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35. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 17:48 KAG
 
I grew up exposed to the worst snuff films, violent movies, violent video games, and "satanic" rock/heavy metal.

According to the "experts" I'm a walking time bomb. However, I'm happily married and living a quiet life. When I was young my parents explained the difference between right and wrong, as well as the difference between entertainment and reality.

I don't want entertainment watered down because some parents don't parent, or the occasional whack-o thinks he's in the Matrix. I don't care if the movie/video game shows Angelina Jolie mowing down 500 people or getting slapped on the ass by Brad Pitt, I just want a good movie !
 
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34. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 17:39 Prez
 
There's an entire internet full of porn and you think this is cool? Are you 12?" kind of way.

Which is EXACTLY my response to it all. I've seen Disney movie trailers that were more titillating than anything I've seen in DNF so far. Still, unless immediate danger to public safety is involved (the old yelling "fire" in a crowded theater example) I will always and forever remain steadfastly against censorship of any form. Like you, I'd instead counsel good judgement, so I think we're mostly on the same page, at least conceptually. As far as DNF goes, however, while base and puerile, nothing in DNF even remotely seems over the line to me. Honestly, like Pitchford, I don't even think there is a 'line' per se.

BAH- I never asked for authoritarian intervention against GB. Others assigned that argument to me falsely and you just regurgitated it.

I regurgitated nothing except your own words at you; I can't help it if you take general statements personally.

Notice I said: "What I do have a problem with is someone telling me...". If I meant you, I would have said "What I do have a problem with is YOU telling me...". I even went so far as to defend your right to your opinion; how you can take offense to anything that I wrote is beyond me.

This comment was edited on Apr 25, 2011, 17:49.
 
Avatar 17185
 
Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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33. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 16:57 Bhruic
 
Back off the woman beating, it's not cool. It wasn't cool in the GTA series either- it's a stain on this industry.

Yeah. The cool stuff is being able run around jacking people's cars, randomly shooting pedestrians, and mowing down the police. Slapping a woman on the butt is just way over the line.

/sarcasm off
 
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32. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 16:31 Beamer
 
You end up with some offensive, worthless shit but more often than not you create some great things too.


We're talking about capture the flag where females are the flag and you slap their ass to calm them down while saving them.


There was no attempt at creating something great here, and no chance. Comparing this to Human Centipede seems odd.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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31. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 16:19 Verno
 
"Good sense" yet another nebulous idea that can't be objectively qualified. That's really the crux of the problem right there. There are people who find The Human Centipede to be legitimate entertainment. Thankfully it's a small portion of society but unfortunately some of those people will go on to make their own movies, music, whatever. All anyone can do is treat these things individually and that's why I'm fine with games pushing the boundaries like movies and music have done in the past. Will Duke push any meaningful boundaries? I guess we'll see.




You end up with some offensive, worthless shit but more often than not you create some great things too.
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Everquest Next Alpha, Diablo 3, Bravely Default
Watching: Evidence, Longmire, Chained
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30. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 16:15 Matshock
 
Verno wrote on Apr 25, 2011, 16:07:
Either way, my original point is that hiding behind "art" to push something vile is an overused, BS excuse and thatís weak and tired.

About as overused and tired as people pushing their moral judgments of content on others. Let's face it, society in general has it's own safeguards against content it finds too offensive and that is reached through the majority. I don't necessarily like it but the disadvantages of offensive artwork are far outweighed by the creativity and opportunities afforded to everyone else.

Na, the idea of being free to call it like you see in a non-authoritarian context it is apparently still so new most people don't even know it when they see it.

But now we're veering WAAAAAY OT so I'll let those who wish to hand wring and mutter over me to continue unabated.
 
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29. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 16:10 Beamer
 
I also agree with your "rape culture" comment; but I'd argue that movies like "Irreversible" and "I Spit On Your Grave" (both available on Amazon Instant Video) do way more to advance the normalization of such a culture than a tongue-in-cheek videogame.

I think the difference, besides audience scale, is that I Spit On Your Grave is pretty much hated exploitation film put out there solely as a low budget shock and recognized as such. This is big budget entertainment that's not readily recognized as lowest-common-denominator, nor should it have to be. It's really the capture the flag idea that pushes it so far over there.


The biggest frustration for me is that so much of this is stupid mid-90s crap. Duke, as a whole, is pointlessly dated. He looks like and acts like Schwarzenegger in Last Action Hero. No one wants that. The character has history, though, and so much could have been done to modernize him. Instead they just pushed boundaries further, boundaries that are uninteresting and unnecessary. Boobs were unique in games in 1995. By this point they're just distracting, and not in that "OMG awesome!" way, more in the "what, you expect pixels to excite me? There's an entire internet full of porn and you think this is cool? Are you 12?" kind of way.




While I agree that censorship is off limits, no one here is advocating a censorship board, we're advocating good sense. And bringing on a shitstorm when someone doesn't use good sense isn't censorship, it's in fact the opposite.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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28. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 16:07 Verno
 
Either way, my original point is that hiding behind "art" to push something vile is an overused, BS excuse and thatís weak and tired.

About as overused and tired as people pushing their moral judgments of content on others. Let's face it, society in general has it's own safeguards against content it finds too offensive and that is reached through the majority. I don't necessarily like it but the disadvantages of offensive artwork are far outweighed by the creativity and opportunities afforded to everyone else.
 
Avatar 51617
 
Playing: Everquest Next Alpha, Diablo 3, Bravely Default
Watching: Evidence, Longmire, Chained
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27. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 16:00 Matshock
 
Prez wrote on Apr 25, 2011, 15:49:
I have yet to see any good argument to the contrary here and the dismissive platitudes are even weaker than Randy's crap.

If you don't consider the content in DNF to be entertainment then there is no argument to be made against that - your morals are yours and you decided that this crossed the line for you, which I have no problem with. What I do have a problem with is someone telling me that because it crosses the line for them, it should be disallowed for everyone. That's crap, plain and simple.

I've laughed at the occasional 'wife-beater' joke, been entertained by movies and TV shows in which spousal abuse was a key theme, and nothing in DNF seems to be over-the line as far as I'm concerned. A bit sophomoric, sure, but nothing terribly offensive.


BAH- I never asked for authoritarian intervention against GB. Others assigned that argument to me falsely and you just regurgitated it.

I would however encourage people on a personal level to make a good decision, and I believe I have made a good decision re: DNF as of right now.

 
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26. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 15:57 Creston
 
That's a very slippery slope -- there should not be a line

So games like Rape-Lay should be a-okay? I think that's a more slippery slope than having a line.

Creston
 
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25. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 15:50 Prez
 
Beamer wrote on Apr 25, 2011, 15:44:
The argument is that some things are so pointlessly damaging that there's no good reason to put them out there. There's no distinct line, but there is better judgment.

No one is arguing that any of this causes rape. What I'm arguing is that it furthers rape culture, which is something poorly titled and isn't specifically rape oriented.

I don't disagree at all - there have been several recent cases where I myself wished the developer of a game had shown better taste than what they did in deciding what content to include in a game, but that's as far as I go. I stop short of dictating to a developer what they should be allowed to include in their game. Censorship of any kind is off limits in my book.

I also agree with your "rape culture" comment; but I'd argue that movies like "Irreversible" and "I Spit On Your Grave" (both available on Amazon Instant Video) do way more to advance the normalization of such a culture than a tongue-in-cheek videogame.

This comment was edited on Apr 25, 2011, 15:56.
 
Avatar 17185
 
Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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24. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 15:49 Prez
 
I have yet to see any good argument to the contrary here and the dismissive platitudes are even weaker than Randy's crap.

If you don't consider the content in DNF to be entertainment then there is no argument to be made against that - your morals are yours and you decided that this crossed the line for you, which I have no problem with. What I do have a problem with is someone telling me that because it crosses the line for them, it should be disallowed for everyone. That's crap, plain and simple.

I've laughed at the occasional 'wife-beater' joke, been entertained by movies and TV shows in which spousal abuse was a key theme, and nothing in DNF seems to be over-the line as far as I'm concerned. A bit sophomoric, sure, but nothing terribly offensive.

 
Avatar 17185
 
Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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23. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 15:44 Beamer
 
Too many people seem to think that they have the right to dictate what that line should be for others, and that is simply bullshit and pisses me off. Don't like it? Don't play it. Who the hell are you to tell someone else what they should and shouldn't enjoy?

Unless you are arguing that simulated sex and violence causes real world rape and violence, in which case I would simply point to the dearth of evidence to back up such a dubious claim.

The argument is that some things are so pointlessly damaging that there's no good reason to put them out there. There's no distinct line, but there is better judgment.

No one is arguing that any of this causes rape. What I'm arguing is that it furthers rape culture, which is something poorly titled and isn't specifically rape oriented.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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22. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 15:31 Matshock
 
Anything can be normalized- I tend to think of it this way; violence CAN be positive when itís defensive in nature.

Violence against women not trying to seriously injure or kill someone else etc. etc. isn't positive.

Either way, my original point is that hiding behind "art" to push something vile is an overused, BS excuse and thatís weak and tired.

GB's contention is that slapping a woman to win her compliance is entertainment. I contend it isn't and put my money where my mouth is.

I have yet to see any good argument to the contrary here and the dismissive platitudes are even weaker than Randy's crap.

Take care thread people.

 
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21. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 15:21 Prez
 
The point he's trying to make, one which I happen to agree with, is that there can't be an arbitrary line for everyone because peoples' tolerances concerning taste and morality are not universal. It's up to the creator to determine where their own line is, and it's up to the end user to decide if the content crosses their personal line, and if it does, simply avoid it.

Too many people seem to think that they have the right to dictate what that line should be for others, and that is simply bullshit and pisses me off. Don't like it? Don't play it. Who the hell are you to tell someone else what they should and shouldn't enjoy?

Unless you are arguing that simulated sex and violence causes real world rape and violence, in which case I would simply point to the dearth of evidence to back up such a dubious claim.
 
Avatar 17185
 
Goodbye my Monte boy. May you rest in the peace you never knew in life.
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20. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 15:08 Beamer
 
It's less worries of emulation and more worries about normalization.


Violence is inherent and games and can't really be normalized.
Sexism and rape culture isn't and can be. And has been.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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19. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 15:00 kanniballl
 
Verno wrote on Apr 25, 2011, 14:33:
Ask people who are in prison for doing things like that in real life what their favorite games are. That would be a good study. Oh Wait someone already did:

And I'll ask the millions of people not in prison for doing things that they saw in videogames while we're at it too Jester

I've been playing shooters since, gosh, maybe 1996. 1998
Have I run around and gunned people to death? No


Have the 75% of males that have looked at pornography in their life turned into sex offenders? Rapists? Playboy photographers?
No


This just in...
Correlation does not equal causation

In a related story...
All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles.


 
"Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you."
-Fry, Futurama
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18. Re: Duke Nukem Forever Interview Apr 25, 2011, 14:44 VultureMAN
 
There was a point in time when every woman I met would have gladly been slapped on the ass... by Sean Connery.

times change. mores evolve
 
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