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Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks

The Gearbox Software Forums announce Steamworks support for Duke Nukem Forever, their upcoming shooter sequel starring gaming's fair-haired boy. Here's word on what this means to you: "It means that regardless of where or how you buy Duke Nukem Forever on PC, your purchase will be tied to your Steam account, ensuring that you'll always be able to install a copy of the game even if you lose your disc."

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65. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 16:39 Beamer
 
Gamestop is nothing like a used car dealer, as used car dealers pay for a dealers liscence, and has to meet legal and financial requirements, and in addition they (Toyota or Ford or whoever) can still sell parts and service for used cards. Gamestop just screws everyone out of money but themselves.

This.

Ok, so let's look at the used car industry:
1) The biggest players in it are the car companies' franchises themselves.
2) The car is actually sold, meaning that it's impossible for a customer to sell his car yet not relinquish it.
3) The manufacturers still sell parts and services on the car for the entirety of its life.
4) An enormous chunk of the market cannot afford a new car on its own and need to buy a used car. Another enormous chunk could not buy a car without selling what they have for good money. In these regards the secondary market is an absolute necessity for car pricing and without it prices would have to fall dramatically.
5) In any case the car is worth less when it goes to the next owner because it's been physically used.


Now let's look at used books, since people mention them a lot:
1) Again, there is no real major seller here. No individual profiting more heavily than the creator.
2) Again, there is no way for the original owner to pass on the physical book yet retain its use.
3) Again, a used book loses some value by being used. You get intimate with books, either via highlighting or the simple fact that it's in your hands for hours and often in bed with you. A used one may be marked up or otherwise gross.


Lastly, let's look at video games:
1) GameStop is a publically traded company rolling in profits.
2) It's very possible for someone to buy a game, install/copy the game, then sell the game, making it virtually impossible to guarantee the person selling the game no longer uses the game.
3) While the publisher can still sell DLC, he also has to maintain support to someone he no longer has a fiduciary relationship with.
4) Used games are $5 cheaper than new games at GameStop. That's less than 10% of a new game.
5) Games either work or don't. You touch the DVD what, maybe once per 4 hours of play? There's really no functional difference between a new one and used one so long as it works.



I think there's sufficient cause to look at these individually rather than point at one and use it as an example for the other.
 
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64. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 15:58 Draugr
 
InBlack wrote on Feb 16, 2011, 10:18:
Beamer wrote on Feb 16, 2011, 09:16:
Some of the opinions defending publishing rights with regards to second hand sales in this thread are making me physically nauseous.

And again, digital media isn't really very comparable to physical media, which is where so much of this issue lies. Computer games are digital media merely given via physical distribution.

All the "consumer rights" people keep mentioning tend to revolve around their notions of physical media. Problem is that we can prove that a book sold is no longer in use by the original owner. We cannot do that with any digital media.



Regardless, you have GameStop to blame for this. Do you know why Hollywood doesn't much complain about DVD reselling? Because no one is making more money off of used DVD sales than any content creator is off of new DVD sales. In the video game industry GameStop is making more money than most content creators. This is why it's become such a big issue.



In honesty, how many of you regularly resell PC games, anyway?

Actually today we can prove who is currently using which piece of software today, that is one of the purposes of DRM. I would wager that 99.99% of all games produced today have some kind of validation. Most of the "normal" DRM today allows for the resale of games, as long as there is only one account per copy of the game.

Gamestop is basically an intermediary. A "used car salesman" if you like.

But this is all moot in any case, EULAs specifically state that consumers dont really "own" the game in any case. They are simply licencing it. AFAIC someone needs to make a serious investigation of whether current EULAs are ar legal or even constitutional.

(For reference please use the constitution of the USA)

Gamestop is nothing like a used car dealer, as used car dealers pay for a dealers liscence, and has to meet legal and financial requirements, and in addition they (Toyota or Ford or whoever) can still sell parts and service for used cards. Gamestop just screws everyone out of money but themselves.

in regards to EUlAs, it really depends on the EULA, but what you said is true about many EULA's. You don't own the software, you own the liscence.

PC second hand sales hasnt been strong, pretty much ever, as Beamer said, one reason for this is you have no way of telling if the other person still isn't utilizing it. Nowadays we have DRM and whatnot, but back in the day that wasn't something that was a norm, and therefore people acted accordingly lest they get sued, and it's just kind of stuck.

I believe part of the reason Gamestop doesn't carry much PC stuff is because they can't plan on any second hand sales.

I don't think there are any parts in the constitution in regards to consumer protections, feel free to prove me wrong, I'd be surprised to see an article where they say licencing software is illegal, if you're referring to other crap that can be in EULA's then that would be a discussion for a different time.
.
 
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63. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 10:18 InBlack
 
Beamer wrote on Feb 16, 2011, 09:16:
Some of the opinions defending publishing rights with regards to second hand sales in this thread are making me physically nauseous.

And again, digital media isn't really very comparable to physical media, which is where so much of this issue lies. Computer games are digital media merely given via physical distribution.

All the "consumer rights" people keep mentioning tend to revolve around their notions of physical media. Problem is that we can prove that a book sold is no longer in use by the original owner. We cannot do that with any digital media.



Regardless, you have GameStop to blame for this. Do you know why Hollywood doesn't much complain about DVD reselling? Because no one is making more money off of used DVD sales than any content creator is off of new DVD sales. In the video game industry GameStop is making more money than most content creators. This is why it's become such a big issue.



In honesty, how many of you regularly resell PC games, anyway?

Actually today we can prove who is currently using which piece of software today, that is one of the purposes of DRM. I would wager that 99.99% of all games produced today have some kind of validation. Most of the "normal" DRM today allows for the resale of games, as long as there is only one account per copy of the game.

Gamestop is basically an intermediary. A "used car salesman" if you like.

But this is all moot in any case, EULAs specifically state that consumers dont really "own" the game in any case. They are simply licencing it. AFAIC someone needs to make a serious investigation of whether current EULAs are ar legal or even constitutional.

(For reference please use the constitution of the USA)
 
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62. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 09:55 Tumbler
 
In honesty, how many of you regularly resell PC games, anyway?

I did until all this activation crap came around. I bought a shit load of games for the PC. But once I couldn't resell them that all ended.

Resale is a big deal. Resale is why so many consumers choose to buy a game on the console vs the pc. As Gabe Newell said regarding PC portal coming with the PS3 version, "It's the same game. They already bought it so we let them play it on steam as well."

And all this ignores that insane levels of competition in the market today. There are so many games on the market right now that the $60 price point is laughably overpriced. They should be maybe $40 which is what the biggest games end up selling for through retailers offering incentives and such. The only reason the $60 price point sticks with the consoles is because of resales. You take those away and this industry will fragment and flee just like we saw on the pc gaming platform.
 
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61. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 09:44 Verno
 
And again, digital media isn't really very comparable to physical media, which is where so much of this issue lies. Computer games are digital media merely given via physical distribution.

Actually Beamer sure it is because it's the same product with the same or higher prices in many cases. In fact little distinguishes it from a physical product, if anything I am receiving less for my money than before. This is from the consumers perspective, not the publishers.

Regardless, you have GameStop to blame for this. Do you know why Hollywood doesn't much complain about DVD reselling? Because no one is making more money off of used DVD sales than any content creator is off of new DVD sales. In the video game industry GameStop is making more money than most content creators. This is why it's become such a big issue.

The industry is just as much to blame and Hollywood bitches about everything including pawn-style shops which are a massive market for reselling dvds.

In honesty, how many of you regularly resell PC games, anyway?

That's not even a valid question really. Something doesn't need to directly impact you to fully appreciate the ramifications of it.
 
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60. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 09:36 SpectralMeat
 
GAMESTOP doesn't even carry any PC games anymore here where I live, unless if it is a large PC game like Starcraft was. There are about 5-6 gamestop locations in this city.
Used PC games at gamestop, the last time I saw was about 10 years ago and those were some crappy games like Horseback Barbie and stuff like that.

It may be different in the States but here in Canada PC games at Gamestop is not very popular. Console games however is a different story, gamestop has tons of those used because console games are still in physical media format.
 
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59. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 09:16 Beamer
 
Some of the opinions defending publishing rights with regards to second hand sales in this thread are making me physically nauseous.

And again, digital media isn't really very comparable to physical media, which is where so much of this issue lies. Computer games are digital media merely given via physical distribution.

All the "consumer rights" people keep mentioning tend to revolve around their notions of physical media. Problem is that we can prove that a book sold is no longer in use by the original owner. We cannot do that with any digital media.



Regardless, you have GameStop to blame for this. Do you know why Hollywood doesn't much complain about DVD reselling? Because no one is making more money off of used DVD sales than any content creator is off of new DVD sales. In the video game industry GameStop is making more money than most content creators. This is why it's become such a big issue.



In honesty, how many of you regularly resell PC games, anyway?
 
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58. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 09:09 Verno
 
I have to agree with you InBlack. Some people literally seem to have no concept of the rights that consumers are used to having with regards to entertainment products like movies and games. Yes, the times are changing but that doesn't mean they get to have their cake and eat it too. If I can't return the product then I at least need to have the option to resell it. If I can't do either of those things then I need something to offset that loss. I'm not totally sure convenience is worth the difference and they certainly aren't giving it back on price so I see where the complaints come from.

Sure, and I'll wait for i7's to be as cheap as celerons and then I'll start playing games. Empty Servers.

Actually it's pretty rare to actually encounter empty servers unless you're playing a game that wasn't very popular on the PC in the first place, Red Faction Guerilla for example.
 
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57. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 05:00 InBlack
 
Some of the opinions defending publishing rights with regards to second hand sales in this thread are making me physically nauseous.  
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56. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 04:37 SectorEffector
 
Shadowcat wrote on Feb 16, 2011, 01:30:
Steam [...] ensuring that you'll always be able to install a copy of the game even if you lose your disc
Also ensuring that I won't buy it unless the price drops to $5. Oh well.

Sure, and I'll wait for i7's to be as cheap as celerons and then I'll start playing games. Empty Servers.
 
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55. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 01:30 Shadowcat
 
Steam [...] ensuring that you'll always be able to install a copy of the game even if you lose your disc
Also ensuring that I won't buy it unless the price drops to $5. Oh well.
 
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54. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 00:39 Draugr
 
trashcan wrote on Feb 15, 2011, 23:46:
Your full of crap that libraries pay more. My wife works in one and I go with her and help pick out used movies and games to save tax payers money. We also buy some of the books used. Hey it's tax payers money. Call your local library and make sure they buy used TO SAVE YOU MONEY.


And what was a must buy for me turned into a no buy. Steam sucks.

I stand corrected, though let me be clear that I'm certainly not arguing against public libraries .
I've also never heard Authors complain about how its bad for them either, though.

This comment was edited on Feb 16, 2011, 00:48.
 
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53. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 16, 2011, 00:20 StingingVelvet
 
Hahaha... ensuring you can always play even if you lose your disc. That's like the Ubisoft DRM making a big deal about "no disc needed to play!" They know what they are doing though, when Dragon Age 2 went from being a simple disc check to being activated online, tied to an EA account AND checked every so many days a ton of people on Bioware's forum said "yay no more disc check!" Idiots.

Anyway, I could make some comments about Steam DRM annoying me but at the end of the day I'll buy the game and crack the DRM when it annoys me, or when all the patches are done and someone uploads a complete cracked version I can make a simple backup of. Done.
 
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52. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 15, 2011, 23:46 trashcan
 
Your full of crap that libraries pay more. My wife works in one and I go with her and help pick out used movies and games to save tax payers money. We also buy some of the books used. Hey it's tax payers money. Call your local library and make sure they buy used TO SAVE YOU MONEY.


And what was a must buy for me turned into a no buy. Steam sucks.
 
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51. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 15, 2011, 21:35 Draugr
 
PHJF wrote on Feb 15, 2011, 18:34:
This. by buying second hand you've given them as much money as someone who stole the game.

Except buying it used presupposes somebody bought in the first place you FUCK.

Well, I don't know why we'd need to go calling people names just because we have a difference of opinion, I'd like to think we're capable of having an adult conversation. (High hopes for internet commentary, I know.)

It does involve someone buying it first, certainly, but they've lost a potential sale either way when it comes to the pirate or the second hand sale -- Either way, you get to enjoy their product and they get nothing from it. I certainly don't mean to imply that they are on morally equal ground.

Look at it from the perspective of the developer. Jack buys a THQ game, plays it and sells it to you. Jack was their customer. Your Jack's customer, not THQ's. In this situation, due to the availability of Jack's copy, THQ has (potentially) lost out on a sale.
Obviously they've reacted by making sure you need to buy something from them in the case of used sales if you want the full 'new' experience.

I speak mostly in regards to Devs, unless the dev and pub are one in the same, publishers are just banking off of other people's crap so I certainly don't have any pity for them.

I'm not commenting on used EVERYTHING, there are some goods that benefit through being resold, such as cars.
Even when you buy a used car you still need parts for maintenance, so they are still able to make money off of it in some regard. Much in the same way MS probably has no problem having used 360s being sold as it still gets people to buy games.

I get that it's not popular, I just feel people should support the devs by purchasing through them, instead of second hand. If that means waiting a few months after its released to meet a price point I'm willing to buy it at, so be it.

This comment was edited on Feb 15, 2011, 22:15.
 
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50. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 15, 2011, 21:31 Draugr
 
DrEvil wrote on Feb 15, 2011, 18:54:
Draugr wrote on Feb 15, 2011, 18:26:
Narf2029 wrote on Feb 15, 2011, 17:29:
Considering that BioWare didn't make a cent off of your used purchase, I don't think they give a shit about your thanks. Especially since they're part of EA now.

This. by buying second hand you've given them as much money as someone who stole the game.

By the logic, I assume you are implying libraries are a hive of villainy and scum.

No, they buy a library licence for their products they offer (music, books, video, software) which is (assumedly) a bit more than what you'd pay at retail.

This comment was edited on Feb 16, 2011, 00:37.
 
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49. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 15, 2011, 21:16 entr0py
 
Tumbler wrote on Feb 15, 2011, 20:03:
The DVD boxed sale comparison is perfect. And the whole locked content to prevent used sales...I'm well aware of that. Bioware gets my knob of approval for this system in fact. Bioware has gotten plenty of money from me because they ship products that work out of the box. I purchased Mass Effect 2 for the 360, Dragon Age Origins Ultimate for the 360, and now I picked up a copy of Dragon Age Origins for the PC based on my experiences with the previous 2 games. Both the games I purchased I traded to others which was a condition of me buying them. So the reason they got money from me in the first place was because I could have something that was mine that I could sell.

As for the whole buying used doesn't give you the full game...the used market discounts games with locked content to a price assuming you're also going to buy that locked content....so buying used gives you the option to pay less for the game then pay more if you really want those extra items. Buying new forces you into that purchase.

True, as much as I'm a bit irritated by first owner exclusive content in Mass Effect 2, it has to be said that it is a very gentle screwing compared to the utter boning of not being able to resell a game at all. Used owners still got 95% of the content.

I'm worried about Dragon Age 2 though. On consoles they've unveiled a scheme similar to Mass Effect 2, with a few account-locked items. But the DRM on the PC version seems to preclude any possibility of resale. Unless you make another EA account for the purpose of resale. Which, as others have pointed out, is generally against the terms of service.
 
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48. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 15, 2011, 21:15 Prez
 
I can see that being tied to a service like Steam or any other would be seen as a negative by some, but I like Steam so much now (a minor miracle considering how much I hated it at launch) that seeing this makes me cheer. Maybe I've just gotten old and lazy, but Steam is a huge convenience that far outweighs the negatives.

I guess it's worth mentioning I never, ever resell games, and have long since stopped buying used, the whole "tied to your account" thing for me is a non-issue. I just find buying used rewards the wrong parties, and honestly it doesn't really bother me when companies figure out ways to limit or eliminate resales.
 
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47. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 15, 2011, 20:32 [VG]Reagle
 
I could shit a better program then steamworks  
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46. Re: Duke Nukem Forever and Steamworks Feb 15, 2011, 20:03 Tumbler
 
Game sales are their first point of sale. Movie theaters and the box office are a movie's first point of sale.

The DVD boxed sale comparison is perfect. And the whole locked content to prevent used sales...I'm well aware of that. Bioware gets my knob of approval (Edit: LOL I mean Knod...too funny to fix it) for this system in fact. Bioware has gotten plenty of money from me because they ship products that work out of the box. I purchased Mass Effect 2 for the 360, Dragon Age Origins Ultimate for the 360, and now I picked up a copy of Dragon Age Origins for the PC based on my experiences with the previous 2 games. Both the games I purchased I traded to others which was a condition of me buying them. So the reason they got money from me in the first place was because I could have something that was mine that I could sell.

As for the whole buying used doesn't give you the full game...the used market discounts games with locked content to a price assuming you're also going to buy that locked content....so buying used gives you the option to pay less for the game then pay more if you really want those extra items. Buying new forces you into that purchase.

This comment was edited on Feb 15, 2011, 21:13.
 
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