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Quote of the Day

"Nowadays the interesting things that are happening for FPS tend to be for PC, and that has a different culture and it has different styles of gameplay. Different core mechanics and semi-core mechanics," N64 GoldenEye and Perfect Dark director and producer Martin Hollis tells Computer and Video Games. "I have to admit that when I look at FPS games, I'm always looking for innovation, and I don't tend to be that excited by what people have done. I wouldn't go so far as to say it was retrograde, but there's an awful lot of things that I've seen that aren't really that new." Thanks joao.

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22. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 17:43 bhcompy
 
Ecthelion wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 15:47:
There are a few decent single-player FPS mods, but I haven't seen any true indie single-player FPS games.

Serious Sam(more fun as co-op, but campaign focused). Farcry.

 
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21. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 17:09 ASeven
 
Ecthelion wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 15:47:
There are a few decent single-player FPS mods, but I haven't seen any true indie single-player FPS games.

True on most indie FPS games being MP. However Heroes of Stalingrad will feature a lengthy SP campaign for both the German and Soviet side.
 
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20. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 16:50 Ray Ban
 
Ecthelion wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 15:47:
Where I'd like to see innovation is in AI. Neither indie or AAA developers seem interested in tackling this basic issue.

Is it just me, or are most (if not all) indie FPSes multiplayer-only? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I couldn't be less interested in yet another team-based or deathmatch FPS. There are a few decent single-player FPS mods, but I haven't seen any true indie single-player FPS games.


It is now five years since the release of F.E.A.R, the most impressive FPS yet, AI-wise. Has anything even remotely comparable been released since?

One of the main reasons I skipped the sequel, was that Monolith's AI guru jumped ship and left the goons without brains ...
 
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19. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 15:49 Steele Johnson
 
One game the stands out as a truly innovative FPS; Starsiege: Tribes. To this day, nothing compares.  
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18. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 15:47 Ecthelion
 
Where I'd like to see innovation is in AI. Neither indie or AAA developers seem interested in tackling this basic issue.

Is it just me, or are most (if not all) indie FPSes multiplayer-only? Maybe I'm in the minority, but I couldn't be less interested in yet another team-based or deathmatch FPS. There are a few decent single-player FPS mods, but I haven't seen any true indie single-player FPS games.
 
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17. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 15:44 theyarecomingforyou
 
Playing through Medal Of Honor it's clear that the FPS genre is actually regressing - invisible walls, transparently scripted events, incredibly linear level design, whack-a-mole AI, etc. I was actually shocked by how shoddy it all was, as it wasn't even up to the quality of a mod. The singleplayer is an absolute disgrace and I can't see Danger Close lasting in the business.  
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16. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 15:04 ASeven
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 13:17:
Uuuh... the only innovative games coming for the PC are, you guessed it, indies. Heroes of Stalingrad, Primal Carnage, Depth, Natural Selection 2, OverDose.

Yeah, we know you like indie FPS games that will likely blow, but my point was that innovation is likely to resume now that FPS-quality graphics are cheaper to make (thanks to consoles slowing progress) and there are more professional tools available to indies. You're listing games that just prove that.

You can keep listing those games, though, but we've seen so little from any. Have we seen gameplay from Primal Carnage or just proof of concept videos? It's hard to get excited about something that probably has a 33% chance of actually getting released. Not to bash the guys doing it, but it's a simple fact when it comes to cross-continental dev groups without funding taking on a big project.

Yeah because all those gameplay videos from HoS clearly show only concepts, PC Gamer didn't even play that concept and called it the best game at PAX, go figure. Not bad for an indie heh? You can also play Natural Selection 2, though it's an alpha. 80000 pre-orders just to get access to alpha and you think it will blow? Considering the game will probably sell 10x as much when it hits release, as is usually the case with any pre-orders of most games, I wouldn't consider that a game that blows sales wise. Gameplay wise the game's pretty good, and it's a crude alpha still. Some games will be released, some won't. It's not like the industry has a lower cancel rate, on the contrary as any dev who worked there could tell you of the dozens of canned projects each quarter. So working at a publisher actually doesn't guarantee the game will be released anyway.

Do agree that tools are now more easily accessible today, from Unity to UDK to Unigine, everyone wants to give away their engine and a lot of people are taking on that and doing stuff and risking doing stuff you couldn't do under a publisher. So when you say that innovation will resume now due to the availability of tools it also proves my point, since publishers have had easy access to those tools (money won't be a problem, support won't either since any toolmaker with half a brain will give a lot of support to the big publishers) and innovation has stagnated mainstream-wise despite all that availability. Again, indies to the rescue and doing stuff no dev under a publisher would dream of doing. Indies are the ones innovating. Will they succeed? Nobody really can tell for sure but if mainstream games don't start offering more the chances of indies succeeding will increase over time.
 
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15. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 15:02 Tumbler
 
I have to admit that when I look at FPS games, I'm always looking for innovation, and I don't tend to be that excited by what people have done.

I'd have to agree with this statement. Terrain damage in the BFBC games has been interesting, bullet penetration in CoD games, but those improvements feel fake. The bullet penetration is simply a wall being tagged as not there, the terrain destruction in bf2 is more like sections of wall that can be destroyed rather than the whole thing truly being destructible.

It will be cool when we're at the point where bullet penetration punches a hole through the wall and you can see through it.

Or when terrain destruction gets to the points where the debris ends up making all new types of cover rather than magically disappearing.

The 360 arriving really pulled the momentum out of FPS games on the pc and pushed most of that into consoles where they have been basically building in features and gameplay that the pc's had for a long time. We're still running 9v9 or 12v12 matches...would be nice if they started moving to 32v32 as a standard and building bigger more complex games...so far there isn't much need, the stuff their making now is selling too well to worry about innovating to get more people interested.
 
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14. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 13:50 SirKnight
 
Goldeneye for the 64 was bad ass.

I was playing it again for the first time in years about a week ago but only this time on an emulator with a 360 controller.

I liked how you could shoot guys in the balls and they'd grab themselves in pain. I think Soldier of Fortune did that as well.
 
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13. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 13:19 bhcompy
 
necrosis wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 13:01:
Beamer wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 12:44:
FPS games have stagnated. Not that they ever innovated much beyond graphics, but they've definitely stagnated. Why? Most likely because consoles moved the genre back a few years.
So true. Because of the limited input on consoles (gamepad) many games have LOST features. Even to the point of destroying a franchisee. Rainbow Six anyone? Last good one was RvS. After that it became console centric and nothing more than just another FPS game among thousands. All the defining traits where thrown out. Ahh the memories of 8 on 8 RvS matches at LAN parties...

Ravenshield was great, but Roguespear was the pinnacle of the series

Anyways, no more lean left/lean right anymore
 
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12. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 13:17 Beamer
 
Uuuh... the only innovative games coming for the PC are, you guessed it, indies. Heroes of Stalingrad, Primal Carnage, Depth, Natural Selection 2, OverDose.

Yeah, we know you like indie FPS games that will likely blow, but my point was that innovation is likely to resume now that FPS-quality graphics are cheaper to make (thanks to consoles slowing progress) and there are more professional tools available to indies. You're listing games that just prove that.

You can keep listing those games, though, but we've seen so little from any. Have we seen gameplay from Primal Carnage or just proof of concept videos? It's hard to get excited about something that probably has a 33% chance of actually getting released. Not to bash the guys doing it, but it's a simple fact when it comes to cross-continental dev groups without funding taking on a big project.

The "Waaaaahs" I meant are the "OMG a console dev is making fun of OUR genre!" which we already had appearing in this thread.

 
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11. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 13:16 bhcompy
 
crazyfingers wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 12:31:
The ammount of unique gampeplay brought by goldeneye 64 was incredible, especially for a cartridge console game. To call it a rip off of other FPS's is a gross understatement. The devil's often in the details and the way the mecahnics came together to form a coherent incredibly fun whole is what made goldeneye one of the all time classics, from incredible weapon balance and mechanics (shooting through walls, location specific damage, duel weilding), to hilariously fun animations and characters like baron samedy and oddjob(who remembers spazzing out while strafing back and forth and looking up?), to a unique and hugely rewarding single player with tremendous depth (the unlockeable secrets were perfectly balanced giving an ever increasing challenge AND REWARD to the extent of which we haven't seen since.)

There are few if any games i can think of that transcended multilayer and single player among its peers like goldeneye did.

Don't forget blast and bullet textures on walls, as highlighted with paintball mode
 
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10. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 13:05 Fion
 
nin wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 11:31:
Wasn't Goldeneye one of, if not the first, to allow location specific damage, specifically being able to shoot guns out of peoples hands?

On the console yes, but it wasn't even close to the first game to do this on the PC.
 
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9. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 13:01 necrosis
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 12:44:
FPS games have stagnated. Not that they ever innovated much beyond graphics, but they've definitely stagnated. Why? Most likely because consoles moved the genre back a few years.
So true. Because of the limited input on consoles (gamepad) many games have LOST features. Even to the point of destroying a franchisee. Rainbow Six anyone? Last good one was RvS. After that it became console centric and nothing more than just another FPS game among thousands. All the defining traits where thrown out. Ahh the memories of 8 on 8 RvS matches at LAN parties...
 
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8. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 12:54 ASeven
 
Beamer wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 12:44:
I'd expect innovation to resume. This is the one area where indies have not been a savior. Yeah, there are some awesome ones, and UDK may help that, but primarily FPS games are big publisher big money big fun games that have lately been console focused or they're value pieces of garbage. Indies haven't had as much opportunity to compete in the FPS area due to the insane graphics requirements. Again, that has slowed down and great tools are now available, meaning we'll probably see indie FPS games that don't entirely blow.

Uuuh... the only innovative games coming for the PC are, you guessed it, indies. Heroes of Stalingrad, Primal Carnage, Depth, Natural Selection 2, OverDose. Apart from Brink there is not a single mainstream title that even shows any hint of innovation whatsoever, not even Homefront. And yeah, costs for making a FPS are decreasing, which is why more and more indie FPS are showing up and some are actually pretty crazy. Heck, the OverDose devs are doing stuff with the iDtechv3 engine that even iD didn't think possible, and the game will be free too. Indies are not the saviors? If not for indies FPS' future would be in deep shit now

As for waaaahs, can't see why, the dev says that you can only find some innovation anymore in FPSs in PCs today so yeah, can't see anyone blaming the dev for actually telling the truth.
 
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7. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 12:44 Beamer
 
Yeah, I expect a lot of console-hating "waaaah" in here, but you don't need it.

He makes a good point, and you can still blame consoles!

FPS games have stagnated. Not that they ever innovated much beyond graphics, but they've definitely stagnated. Why? Most likely because consoles moved the genre back a few years.

They're only now reaching on consoles where they were on PCs a ways back, in some regards, at least.


I'd expect innovation to resume. This is the one area where indies have not been a savior. Yeah, there are some awesome ones, and UDK may help that, but primarily FPS games are big publisher big money big fun games that have lately been console focused or they're value pieces of garbage. Indies haven't had as much opportunity to compete in the FPS area due to the insane graphics requirements. Again, that has slowed down and great tools are now available, meaning we'll probably see indie FPS games that don't entirely blow.
 
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6. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 12:34 xXBatmanXx
 
nin wrote on Oct 25, 2010, 12:06:
Wiki shows Goldeneye out in 97, and AQ2 in 98.


wow. Makes sense....I didn't have a 64, but friends did. Was fun to mop the floor with them though.
 
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5. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 12:31 crazyfingers
 
The ammount of unique gampeplay brought by goldeneye 64 was incredible, especially for a cartridge console game. To call it a rip off of other FPS's is a gross understatement. The devil's often in the details and the way the mecahnics came together to form a coherent incredibly fun whole is what made goldeneye one of the all time classics, from incredible weapon balance and mechanics (shooting through walls, location specific damage, duel weilding), to hilariously fun animations and characters like baron samedy and oddjob(who remembers spazzing out while strafing back and forth and looking up?), to a unique and hugely rewarding single player with tremendous depth (the unlockeable secrets were perfectly balanced giving an ever increasing challenge AND REWARD to the extent of which we haven't seen since.)

There are few if any games i can think of that transcended multilayer and single player among its peers like goldeneye did.
 
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4. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 12:06 nin
 

Wiki shows Goldeneye out in 97, and AQ2 in 98.

 
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3. Re: Quote of the Day Oct 25, 2010, 11:59 xXBatmanXx
 
I don't recall - I will have to look into it.

But i know I was playing AQ2 and a ton of other FPS long before this...nope! Wait! You could do that in AQ2 if I remember correctly.
 
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