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Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview

The Deus Ex: Human Revolution interview on Games On Net is a Bich session with Sebastien Bich about the upcoming continuation of the Deus Ex series of action/RPGs. They discuss the console ports of the prequel, support for advanced PC technologies, difficulty levels, the story, and more.

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29. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 17, 2010, 00:26 eRe4s3r
 
Pfft, i'd love to play that crazy batshit .. crazy!

Seen many Indy games trying it too.. sooner or later someone from the demo scene is gonna hook up with the indy devs and make a truly procedural game, not just some parts, but all parts, including gameplay

Just imagine every time you start the game up its a ... different game! ;p How awesome would that be? Then again, probably still 30 years away what with lack of proper AI (for actually producing a proper storyline and script) and stuff.
 
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28. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 16, 2010, 23:29 Sepharo
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 16, 2010, 02:49:
I am fairly competitive when i play so it would bug me to no end that someone wins at a game merely because he knows the map MUCH better.

Really? You don't think pretty much all FPS players benefit from knowing a map better in all FPS games?

Now having said that here's a Quake example

Ever play 1v1 instagib q3dm17? The spawns are random across set locations but only in relation to where you're standing when you kill your opponent. So if you kill them on the left half of the map they spawn on the right side. You kill them right as they spawn rail hop to the other side and repeat the process. Who ever can do this perfectly the longest tends to win. Amongst really good players the real game is to make those mistakes hurt and take over the pattern Rifle

eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 16, 2010, 02:49:
This is why i absolutely HATE that we still have no real random map generator for maps that is truly solid. I mean, that can create maps that are balanced on one hand, but unpredictable and of a graphical quality on-par with that of hand-placed maps. Maybe not for each match but every 3 weeks or so the servers shuffle out new random maps (test played for a day before going live) and then these are in the rotation. Then all thats needed is random weapons and random skins/textures/effects.

That sounds bat shit crazy but I like it.
 
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27. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 16, 2010, 23:12 tuddies
 
reading all of the developer comments for a few months now has lowered my expectations of this game to 'a console crapfest'

if it manages to rise even an inch above this, i will be pleasantly surprised!

 
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26. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 16, 2010, 12:05 Wowbagger_TIP
 
I have to agree with Jerykk on this. 3rd person cover and health regen games tend to have highly predictable and repetitive combat. The R6V games, ME games, and others are like that. You can tell just by entering the area how the combat will play out. None of them have AI that can even come close to providing a challenge, and they never come from behind or effectively flank you. You can just sit in cover and take the bad guys out pretty systematically. Seriously boring.  
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." -- Bertrand Russell (I think...)
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25. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 16, 2010, 04:10 Jerykk
 
I am fairly competitive when i play so it would bug me to no end that someone wins at a game merely because he knows the map MUCH better.

Knowing the map doesn't mean much if you don't know how to move or shoot properly. If a Quake player has the respawn timings and locations of pickups memorized, there's a pretty good chance that he's very good at moving and shooting as well.

In any case, knowing the map gives you a large advantage in ANY game. Single-player, multiplayer, racing, FPS, strategy, etc.

This is why i absolutely HATE that we still have no real random map generator for maps that is truly solid.

I don't think it's possible for a random map generator to be solid. By it's very nature, there's no thought involved in the creation process. It's random. A hand-crafted map is driven by solely by the designer's creativity and talent. It can be thoroughly playtested and tweaked to provide optimal balance. A randomly-generated map lacks all these things.

But what you said.. does that mean you did not find the original Splinter Cell and Spinter Cell 2 fun?

I enjoyed the first one (Chaos Theory was easily the best, though). The difference is that Splinter Cell is a pure stealth game and it's always in third-person. Conversely, Deus Ex is a shooter/stealth/RPG hybrid and it takes place primarily in first-person, though it switches to third-person when taking cover, climbing ladders, performing melee takedowns, etc. I'm a firm believer in consistency so this annoys me greatly. First-person games should stay in first-person and third-person games should stay in third-person. I don't have a problem with consistent third-person perspectives in general, though I do find third-person, cover-based shooters rather bland for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

As a gameplay mechanic, regenerating health simply has no appeal to me. I see no merits in it and it only detracts from the games that use it. A game can still be fun in spite of it but that's only because the other elements of the game are able to compensate. All games would be better without regenerating health.
 
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24. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 16, 2010, 02:49 eRe4s3r
 
Well, the question is how much fun would *you* have playing against someone using the above Q3 tactics? Why do you play online anyway? I am fairly competitive when i play so it would bug me to no end that someone wins at a game merely because he knows the map MUCH better.

This is why i absolutely HATE that we still have no real random map generator for maps that is truly solid. I mean, that can create maps that are balanced on one hand, but unpredictable and of a graphical quality on-par with that of hand-placed maps. Maybe not for each match but every 3 weeks or so the servers shuffle out new random maps (test played for a day before going live) and then these are in the rotation. Then all thats needed is random weapons and random skins/textures/effects.

The greatest and best game that will ever exist, is one that is always changing and providing new things, new stimuli....

But that said, you obviously have a point in that, reducing depth and challenge is ongoing and is a problem.. but you can not make high budget games nowadays without doing that.

But what you said.. does that mean you did not find the original Splinter Cell and Spinter Cell 2 fun? Or is it just ego shooters that have 3rd person elements... To be honest, i much prefer third person for some genres... adventures and rpgs .. so your doubts are at best a proof that nobody so far has made a good game with these elements, does not mean the elements themselves are automatically unfun
 
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23. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 16, 2010, 02:25 Jerykk
 
meh, the only thing playing a role in Quake 3 and UT (suppose thats what you mean?) is farming the weapon and health spawns by a timer - imo the lamest possible MP match possible.

I don't see how having the skill and knowledge to control a map is "lame." Not only do you have to memorize and keep track of the locations and respawn timings of each pickup, you also need to keep track of your health and that of your opponent. Knowing these things is essential because it lets you predict your opponent's next move, much like a chess match. This is far more engaging than the fairly shallow gameplay that CoD and BF exemplify.

Regenerating health is so prominent these days because it's easier for players (thus appealing to a broader audience) and it's easier for designers (they don't have to worry about balancing pickup placement or healing values). It's just lazy all around.

There'd be no point to including stealth if you could take on every enemy with 0 losses.

That's the problem. With regenerating health, there really aren't any losses. Getting hit doesn't matter as long as it doesn't kill you. At the end of every fight, you will have exactly the same amount of health as when you began the fight.

As long as the core gameplay is fun (which for BFBC2 is definitely true) i can have fun with games

The problem is that things like regenerating health and third-person cover systems detract from my enjoyment of games. I've never played a game where these things were fun. Quite the opposite, actually. They serve only to remove challenge and depth and those are things I value.

And making DX more accessible is a good thing, as DX1 was anything but.

Making it accessible is only a good thing if it can be done without sacrificing depth and challenge. Unfortunately, that's very rarely the case. Regenerating health and third-person cover systems have already reduced the depth and challenge in DX3.
 
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22. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 16, 2010, 01:18 eRe4s3r
 
meh, the only thing playing a role in Quake 3 and UT (suppose thats what you mean?) is farming the weapon and health spawns by a timer - imo the lamest possible MP match possible. The one with the better stop-watch and planned path wins, lamesauce!

UT and Quake are obviously made that way and other games are made with regen health... does not make them inheritable worse just different style.

Deus EX 1 was not a Pseudo Realistic shooter but it is not clear to me that this new DX won't be some form of realistic stealth, nano enhanced combat shooter action. Clearly we will be fighting against challenging enemies that can kill, even with regen health as the people making this game aren't stupid There'd be no point to including stealth if you could take on every enemy with 0 losses.

Personally, i like Grenade Indicators and 3rd person cover systems and i can play with or without, makes no difference whatsoever imo. As long as the core gameplay is fun (which for BFBC2 is definitely true) i can have fun with games What i can not stand is auto-aim but i never seen a real shooter, besides Sector 8 that dared include that crap on the PC.

And making DX more accessible is a good thing, as DX1 was anything but.
 
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21. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 16, 2010, 00:46 Jerykk
 
But if you are stuck to cover you can no longer look, quite literally, behind you - so as long as the enemies take advantage of that i see no balance issue

Why would you take cover behind an object which enemies are also behind? That defeats the whole point of cover.

Besides if the enemies use cover and grenades + flanking the same way then you have no advantage whatsoever.

Unfortunately, AI isn't quite at that stage yet. Sure, some games have AI that flanks, uses cover and throws grenades but they aren't nearly as competent as the player. Another big issue with cover systems is that they promote contrived and predictable level design. If you enter an area and see lots of arbitrarily-placed, waist-high objects, it's pretty much guaranteed that enemies will appear on the other side of that area.

Regen health removes backtracking which is *always* boring, and thats a good thing.

Health regen also removes intensity. You don't care about getting shot unless you're on the verge of death because you know that you can always heal any wound. There's no strategy or tactics involved. Just take cover, wait for enemies to pop their head out and then shoot them. If you have to take a few hits yourself in order to land that shot, no problem. You'll completely heal in a few seconds anyway. And if you're surrounded and about to die, just run away and hide for a bit. Poof, back to full health.

Finite health requires forethought. You don't know when you'll get another health kit so you can't afford to carelessly take hits. Every hit counts so you have to be more tactical. In addition, I've never had an issue with backtracking in shooters with finite health systems. If the game uses an inventory-based health kit system like FEAR, I use health kits when I need them. I don't backtrack to the start of the level to pick one up. I've never played a game where health kits were so rare that you had to backtrack.

Bottom line is that health regen is only popular because it makes games easier for casual gamers, much like aim assist, third-person cover systems, grenade proximity indicators, etc.

I think you merely argue over health regen out of habit, BFBC2 has health regen even in MP and it does not break the gameplay whatsoever ;p

In pseudo-realistic military shooters like CoD and BFBC2, you can only take a few hits before dying anyway so having health regen doesn't have that big of an impact. Deus Ex is not a pseudo-realistic military shooter and you'll be able to take a lot more damage, especially with augmentations. As for health regen not adversely affecting a multiplayer game, just imagine how games like Quake/Tribes/UT would play out with health regen. They'd be completely different since health management plays a huge role in them.
 
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20. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 23:25 eRe4s3r
 
But if you are stuck to cover you can no longer look, quite literally, behind you - so as long as the enemies take advantage of that i see no balance issue Besides if the enemies use cover and grenades + flanking the same way then you have no advantage whatsoever.


But to the health, the only thing that DX1 forced you to do was back track to these stupid regen bots even after an mission. Thats called padding and imo, quite lame. Regen health removes backtracking which is *always* boring, and thats a good thing. Now you say that we still have health-packs, but players do not use health packs, they collect them to the maximum and only use them when they found an extra one (else they simply reload and quicksave a lot). I take you never seen other people play fear 1 or took note how you played it.

Besides, it is speculation on your part whether the AI in this Deus EX can cope with cover in third person camera or not... If it can, and uses the same gameplay mechanics you use then the balance is fine, even with health regen. Only thing that does is speed up the gameplay... also not a bad thing.

I think you merely argue over health regen out of habit, BFBC2 has health regen even in MP and it does not break the gameplay whatsoever ;p Now its true this DX is not a mp shooter, but still. Clearly they will also allow a guns blazing approach and we will see when its out whether that works out to a decent game or not.
 
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19. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 22:50 Jerykk
 
The problem with third-person cover systems is that they completely upset the balance of cover. In an FPS, using cover should offer both risk and reward. The risk is that you can't see your enemies without exposing yourself to enemy fire. The reward is that you're otherwise protected from enemy fire. If the camera switches to third-person, there is no risk. You are both protected and you can see what your enemies are doing (but they can't see you). This is why cover-based third-person shooters are so utterly boring. Their core gameplay mechanic is inherently unbalanced and sucks the intensity out of combat.

Anyhow, theres no difference to Regen on a button press or when you are not being shot at or in cover, it just abstracts it and makes it less of a hassle.

That's not the important difference. The importance difference is that in DX1, health regen required both a special augmentation AND it consumed energy (which did not automatically regenerate). In DX3, you don't need an augmentation and there is no limit to your healing. As long as you avoid getting shot long enough, you will always heal completely.
 
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18. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 22:13 eRe4s3r
 
Because duck to a fixed height value makes absolutely no sense in a game that plays in a realistic world? you know, it made sense in HL1 where everywhere you had these butt ugly "1 size for cover and twice the size for super annoying in your way"crates (could have been called crate-life too) but i'd rather never again see such a crappy excuse of game design.

If duck would adapt to whatever is in front of you i could agree, but then you'd still be stuck to cover or would have to hold a button (how else would the game know when you want to take cover and when not?)
 
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17. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 20:08 mag
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 15, 2010, 17:32:
Theres nothing wrong with going into cover by pressing right mouse button and then having A and D for left/right along the cover and W for peeking above it if possible. That simply would not work in first person.

What's wrong with just holding down a freaking duck button when you want to be hidden? I hate getting 'attached' to cover. >:|
 
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16. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 19:08 eRe4s3r
 
But that was made for controllers so not sure it'd work for KB/mouse  
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15. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 18:35 Kevin Lowe
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 15, 2010, 17:32:
Theres nothing wrong with going into cover by pressing right mouse button and then having A and D for left/right along the cover and W for peeking above it if possible. That simply would not work in first person.
I was pretty happy with how Killzone 2 implemented it. There's still a bit of abstraction of the head and neck that I wish they'd go into more detail on (I'd prefer if the viewpoint went parallel to the wall in cover, until you lean out), but from a gameplay perspective, it worked well.
 
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14. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 18:34 Riker
 
People can bitch all they want; the game still looks amazing to me, and I can't wait.  
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13. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 17:32 eRe4s3r
 
Well if they interlink with muscles they can take the energy from basic food conversion processes or the sun-light and if they are in the blood stream they can convert sugar and many other nutritional things into energy as well. Sure you might have more hunger in the morning and a serious sweet tooth too

If Deus EX becomes more like the Splinter Cell 1 or 2 that is imo a good thing. I quite like the 3rd person cover mechanic simply because using Q or E to peek around corners is just annoyingly fiddly and a crap system as you leave the directional controls and if an enemy sees you start to fiddle around. Worse if the peeking around edges thing is a toggle (Arma) you sometimes forget it and run around like an epileptic.

Theres nothing wrong with going into cover by pressing right mouse button and then having A and D for left/right along the cover and W for peeking above it if possible. That simply would not work in first person.
 
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12. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 16:55 GunSlingerAUS
 
Creston wrote on Oct 15, 2010, 10:53:
Good job, Games On Net. Maybe hire someone older than 14 to write your articles for you.

Perhaps you should read the article a little more closely before you start criticizing others. That question wasn't posed by us, it was by another journalist.

Apology accepted.
 
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11. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 16:24 Creston
 
eRe4s3r wrote on Oct 15, 2010, 15:32:
(you'd think nano machines can regenerate cells and assorted damage by default...)

Even nanites need power to do something. They have to get that energy from SOMEWHERE.


As for a third-person cover scheme, it means that when you duck into cover, the camera goes to behind your character (3rd person view), which means you can watch around the cover to see what's happening. (or see enemies sneaking up on you.)It's a crappy system, but every dev in the world seems to love it nowadays, sadly.

Creston
 
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10. Re: Deus Ex: Human Revolution Interview Oct 15, 2010, 15:32 eRe4s3r
 
Yes, now reread the paragraph before that sentence, it makes no sense why it is not Fully automatic in Deus EX1 We don't play Schoolgirl Jane in her launch break, we play an artificial cyborg with nano machines and augmentations. That we can even be healed by food is absurd, nevermind medpacks. (you'd think nano machines can regenerate cells and assorted damage by default...)

Anyhow, theres no difference to Regen on a button press or when you are not being shot at or in cover, it just abstracts it and makes it less of a hassle. So in Deus EX it makes perfect sense to have health regen ^^
 
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