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ABP Closing

The APB: All Points Bulletin Website has word that the online open-world crime game is going offline, less than three months since launch, oddly calling this "the end of an era," and gamely calling the troubled run of the flagship game from troubled developer Realtime Worlds "a fantastic journey" (thanks Drannos). "APB has been a fantastic journey, but unfortunately that journey has come to a premature end. Today we are sad to announce that despite everyone's best efforts to keep the service running; APB is coming to a close. It's been a pleasure working on APB and with all its players. Together we were building an absolutely amazing game, and for that, we thank you. You guys are awesome," says Community Officer Ben 'APBMonkey' Bateman. "The servers are still up, so join the party and say goodbye!" Here's more from Realtime Worlds founder David Jones:

I truly wish we had the chance to continue to craft APB into the vision we had for it. It has been a long & difficult journey but ultimately rewarding to have had the chance to try something bold and different. APB holds some great memories, from the last night of the beta, to the clans and individuals who amazed us with their creativity and sense of community. I am so sorry it had to end so quickly but hopefully the good memories will stay with us all for a long time. Thanks to all the team for the years of hard work, and to the players who contributed so much.

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100. try to keep up Sep 18, 2010, 01:25 space captain
 
space captain wrote on Sep 15, 2010, 16:46:
the problem is that making half a million a year salary just isnt good enough

then that problem rolls downhill, like a big ball of shit
 
Go forth, and kill!
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99. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 19:52 Kxmode
 
ASeven wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 19:40:
kxmode wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 17:57:
Creston wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 17:04:
kxmode wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 16:03:
ASeven wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 14:04:
Creston...

You have my axe.

And my ninja sword, but I need it back next week.

*looks at map*

Mordor isn't exactly next door, ya know? :P

Ninjas in Mordor?! Surprised

One does not simply walk into Mordor and its ninjas.

Ninjas don't walk, we scurry. Yes, scurry.
 
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98. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 19:40 ASeven
 
kxmode wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 17:57:
Creston wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 17:04:
kxmode wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 16:03:
ASeven wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 14:04:
Creston...

You have my axe.

And my ninja sword, but I need it back next week.

*looks at map*

Mordor isn't exactly next door, ya know? :P

Ninjas in Mordor?! Surprised

One does not simply walk into Mordor and its ninjas.
 
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97. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 19:33 Verno
 
Truly an awe inspiring rant that also happens to be 100% on the money. Well done Creston.  
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Playing: Gauntlet, Dark Souls 2, Wasteland 2
Watching: Intruders, 24 Live Another Day, The Signal
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96. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 19:21 StingingVelvet
 
I rarely 100% agree with Creston, but I do in this thread.  
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95. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 17:57 Kxmode
 
Creston wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 17:04:
kxmode wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 16:03:
ASeven wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 14:04:
Creston...

You have my axe.

And my ninja sword, but I need it back next week.

*looks at map*

Mordor isn't exactly next door, ya know? :P

Ninjas in Mordor?! Surprised
 
Avatar 18786
 
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94. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 17:04 Creston
 
kxmode wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 16:03:
ASeven wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 14:04:
Creston...

You have my axe.

And my ninja sword, but I need it back next week.

*looks at map*

Mordor isn't exactly next door, ya know?

Creston
 
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93. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 16:44 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 13:05:
So how is this NOT about greed? How is it not about greed when a game sells 2 MILLION copies, and the dev is extremely disappointed and bitches and moans about it for months on end?

Wanting to be profitable isn't greed. It's survival.

No, I'm sorry. I just don't buy that. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make a profit (and again, there's nothing wrong with wanting to make a billion dollars per game, as long as you don't act surprised that your customers think that you're a giant greedy asshole out to pilfer every last fucking penny from them. Aka, Bobby cocktick,) but there IS something wrong if you need to sell 2 million copies just to survive.

I understand that dev budgets have gone up, because newer hardware is more difficult and time-consuming to program for, but the industry feels that they NEED to spend 50-100 million dollars per game, and then bitches when that game doesn't make its money back.

And the weird thing is, the MOVIE industry, of all things, has already long since figured out that not every movie they make can be profitable. They fund plenty of movies where at best they'll lose a few million bucks, knowing they'll make it back on their summer blockbusters. And they do so to keep interest in their product high. Why can't the game industry figure this out? why does every game HAVE to make 100 million dollars in profit, or else there HAS to be have been something wrong with the CUSTOMER? What kind of fucking logic is that?

What game was it where EA bitched that they couldn't understand it hold sold so poorly, since "they had spent so much money on marketing it."

No mention of making sure it was a GOOD game. No mention of anything. We spent X on marketing, we SHOULD have made X times 2 in revenue, and we didn't. There's something wrong with the customer. Fucking pirates!

It's that bullshit attitude that's fucking ruining what was once a great industry. It's greed. Pure and simple. They ALL want to be the next MW2. At the cost of everything else.

That's what you want us to give and take with? Fuck that.

I'll gladly support a dev like Stardock (despite their two latest blunders), or a dev like Egosoft, who two years after their product went on sale is still supporting it, is still adding content to it. I'll gladly support an indie.

And I'll still buy games from the big corporations if it's a game that will give me a lot of content for my dime, or if it's made by say Bioware.

But all the rest? No way. The days when I bought stuff unseen is long past. I'll buy it when it's 10 bucks on Steam. And if that means the dev goes under, well, tough fucking luck. Maybe you should have thought about that, dev, before you signed up with the big publisher who promised you the world while milking you for every single fucking penny you were worth as you were forced to churn out crapware.

Devs still like to maintain this image of the guy laboring for love in his garage, working 20 hours a day, when the reality is that they're all salaried employees, making good wages, releasing one piece of shovelware after the next. And I'm supposed to sympathize with their plight?

Go back to listening to your community and talking to them, helping them out, and offering support for your games, and the customers will come back to you. Egosoft's a small team that's capable of sustaining themselves off one game every two to three years. They don't get rich off it, no. But they are easily able to 'survive', and they don't need to sell 2 million copies to do it. (admittedly, one of their developers bitched and moaned at his customers, got a huge backlash from it, and apologized two days later.)

Creston
 
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92. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 16:03 Kxmode
 
ASeven wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 14:04:
Creston...

You have my axe.

And my ninja sword, but I need it back next week.
 
Avatar 18786
 
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91. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 14:04 ASeven
 
Creston...

You have my axe.
 
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90. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 13:05 Beamer
 
So how is this NOT about greed? How is it not about greed when a game sells 2 MILLION copies, and the dev is extremely disappointed and bitches and moans about it for months on end?

Wanting to be profitable isn't greed. It's survival.

Devs bitch about two million sales when one of the following occurs:
1) They budgeted for more, so, while two million sounds good, it came in below expectations and they'll lose money, or not make enough to either properly invest in the next title or be able to "buy" their independence from the publisher.
2) The dev sold two million, and is happy, but then sees that it's been torrented 10 million times, and has had 8 million unique users online.

The first one is frustrating as hell, but you kind of made your own grave somewhere along the way. You did something wrong, or at least not right. Sucks all around, because that freedom from publisher tinkering is pretty much a beautiful thing.
The second one is probably more frustrating, because it appears that way more people are enjoying your months of hard work without compensating you for it, but as we all know, there will always be more to those numbers than simple "lost sales." Some wouldn't have been sales. Some are sales with multiple users (ie a family with three gamers but one game machine buys one copy.)
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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89. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 12:28 Prez
 
Reading his post below I have to say I like Creston the most when he IS railing against the industry. That post is pure poetry! Agree with it completely.

It must be "Love on Creston" day.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
- Mahatma Gandhi
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88. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 12:13 Creston
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 10:02:
Because when this board isn't throwing out accusations it's the best and most insightful gaming board out there. So the threads that don't degenerate into crap are simply awesome. Take someone like Creston. Creston is among the most vocal against the industry in those threads. But any post where he's not offended by something is pretty much a stellar post. He says really interesting things about the games I play.

Awww shucks. Blush

I rail against the industry because when I compare it to the industry it was ten years ago, it's gotten ALL about bigger profits, bigger profits, and bigger profits. Nothing else matters anymore. Few care to make a great game. Mostly they just care about making a game that can be a "100 million dollar franchise a year."

Few to none care enough to make sure their product works as advertised. if you run into bugs, well, you must be the dimwit that doesn't know how to update your drivers, or you're just running a pirated copy. After all, the game installed fine on the three test machines in the lab, so there are no issues with it!

Devs complain that the price of games hasn't gone up to keep track of inflation, always conveniently managing to ignore the fact that ten years ago, I'd buy a game and it would last me 20-30 hours on a single playthrough. Nowadays I buy a game, and I'm fucking LUCKY if it lasts **five**. But that obviously doesn't count. That's just a product of the fact that the dev spends 98% of its time building pretty graphics and impressive levels, rather than, oh gee, I dunno, build more content.

And then, of course, I'm automatically a pirate, because I COULD be. So therefore, I have to get games that are fucking infested with DRM and all that shit.

I still enjoy gaming, but I definitely buy fewer games per year because of the industry's attitude. I guess to the industry, that makes sense. Antagonize your customers to the point where they'll stop buying your product.

Now, this struck me as funny.

First you say :

There are far more threads complaining about something a developer/publisher did and making accusations of greed

And then, in another post, you say :

That's not intentionally screwing you over, that's a by-product of you not being a profitable enough category anymore

So how is this NOT about greed? How is it not about greed when a game sells 2 MILLION copies, and the dev is extremely disappointed and bitches and moans about it for months on end?

The only thing the industry cares about anymore is selling MORE COPIES, MORE COPIES, MORE COPIES. Bobby Cocktick has broken the 1 billion dollar barrier with a game, so now he wants to break the 2 billion dollar barrier.

Hey, as an industry, it's entitled to do that. But then please don't give us this fucking sob story on how the industry really cares for the customer and tries to do stuff for fun, when while you're typing that, we get more and more games sold to us piecemeal, with less content as the years keep going by.

And don't act all surprised when the customers, who have been fucking FUNDING this industry since its inception, get fucking pissed at this kind of treatment.

Creston
 
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87. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 11:27 Beamer
 
I think folks like Beamer consider this initial venture capital as the teat from which his employment is suckled, and not from the actual product sales. By reading those blogs, its apparent that many game studios do as well.

The studios don't think this, they just don't have business-minded people. Most studios are run by the creative people. They have no formal business education and have never really had the opportunity to pick it up. They don't have solid business plans, they don't have solid financial goals, etc. Somehow the VCs don't step up, which confuses me. I'm not sure what the deal is, but assume a lot of VCs get swayed by WoW and don't really understand the way the industry works, so they lose a ton of money. You're going to see a shift to seeing the CEOs, or at least presidents, being outside business guys pulled in rather than inside creative guys promoted. I cited Valve and Epic as smart businesses - Gabe Newell learned fiscal responsibility at Microsoft after Harvard and Mike Capps is multidegreed, including MIT. Brilliant guys that are involved in the creative side and capable programmers but also have great business sense. id went and pulled Todd Hollenshead out of Arthur Anderson where he was a consultant. I think more studios will be doing similar things. It isn't about finding "bean counters," which you can never accuse the above three as being, but about finding people with solid business training that absolutely love making games. People that understand when to say "yes, let's do that, it's worth the risk" and people that know when to say "that's really cool, but we can't afford it for this release."

So I'm not sure why I got lumped into this. My ideal job would actually be to end up at the VC doing the funding rather than the company receiving it.
 
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Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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86. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 10:37 Prez
 
StingingVelvet wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 09:25:

I often get frustrated with the negativity of PC Gamers, but it's very disingenuous to act like there aren't reasons for that.

This. This times infinity.

This attitude that gamers are a bunch of self-entitled paranoid chicken littles and every developers action is wholly altruistic is ridiculous beyond all reason. And I am getting absolutely sick of the strawman argument that repeatedly comes up that people here think that they have a right to anything and everything they want. NO ONE believes that. NOT ONE PERSON. Even the most unreasonable posters I have seen here never claim anything of the sort. It's all more making the developers out to be the victim. Sometimes they are, but not of the gaming community. Publishers, retailers, distributors, marketers, etc all can and indeed have victimized developers. But I'd like to know exactly how voicing one's displeasure with the many sins developers commit, be they due to greed, incompetence, or inexperience, is doing anything other than providing feedback that developers need to improve.
 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
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85. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 10:27 Kxmode
 
It's good to see you guys collectively beating the dog while it's down and dying. Good show... Golfclap  
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84. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 10:17 Stanly Manly
 
Oddly enough, when game studios like RTW get investment money, the investors usually like to see a return on said investment (Unless of course you are just laundering money for the mafia *cough*Turbine*cough*).

I think folks like Beamer consider this initial venture capital as the teat from which his employment is suckled, and not from the actual product sales. By reading those blogs, its apparent that many game studios do as well.

By all means, you investment leechers do what you need to do to put food on the table. But don't prance around with an ego about it and put down the gamers who call you out and won't buy your crappy product.


 
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83. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 10:02 Beamer
 
Bullshit. Plenty of us do exactly what you're saying there, some of us are even harassed by other users on the site for it. You're focusing on the worst elements of the community and using it as an excuse, quite transparently too.

Gonna disagree.
It isn't all of us, or rather it isn't all of us all the time (but it's probably all of us some of the time), but it's distinctly the general theme of the community these days. There are far more threads complaining about something a developer/publisher did and making accusations of greed than there are threads discussing how fun a game is, how a game could be better, offering constructive opinions, etc.
I'm not saying these things don't happen, I'm saying they get drowned out.

This site and most other communities are just fine, if its so bad then why are you here? If you want a pro-industry wankfest then read more Gamasutra. If you truly gave a shit about those excuses you'd be teaching the truly ignorant on Gamefaqs. You don't fool me.

Because when this board isn't throwing out accusations it's the best and most insightful gaming board out there. So the threads that don't degenerate into crap are simply awesome. Take someone like Creston. Creston is among the most vocal against the industry in those threads. But any post where he's not offended by something is pretty much a stellar post. He says really interesting things about the games I play.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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82. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 09:58 Beamer
 
The industry IS intentionally screwing me over as it focuses on consoles and heads toward a subscription and digital future.

That's not intentionally screwing you over, that's a by-product of you not being a profitable enough category anymore. It fluctuates, though. On one hand big publishers abandoning the space means far more room for small devs to swoop and and see bigtime profits and grow through innovative products. It also fluctuates in that it'll more likely than not swing back and find some kind of better equilibrium.

Most press comments ARE salesmanship, if not evil then meant to manipulate.

Yes, they're salesmanship. No, they're not necessarily meant to manipulate. Often they're just the truth about the product, its development, or a thought on the industry, and typically it's the press seeking and pushing for the comment/interview. What gets me is when people here see a quote highlighted in the initial post and, rather than click through and see the context they assume the worst. Or sometimes they do click through and the interview doesn't really give context - maybe it's a off-the-sleeve comment, and there's still enormous doom-and-gloom for something ambiguous and can be interpreted a number of different ways via text. Here the tradition is to interpret the worst way, even if it isn't the most logical.

Rights are being removed, from resale to the simple right to install my fucking game when and where I want.

I'll agree the limited install stuff is crap. I'm of the opinion much of DRM is crap, but I understand why they fight it - trying to make sure they avoid a culture where gamers go "well, EA doesn't really care if I pirate, so why shouldn't I," but limited installs are crap. I'll certainly give you that one.
But I don't think we'll ever see the end of DRM. Even though many in the industry openly admit it only hurts the customers and doesn't really stop piracy of that individual product I don't think it can be denied that publishers fighting a fight keeps piracy down by preventing users from thinking piracy is status quo and acceptable.
 
-------------
Music for the discerning:
http://www.deathwishinc.com
http://www.hydrahead.com
http://www.painkillerrecords.com
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81. Re: ABP Closing Sep 17, 2010, 09:30 Verno
 
Beamer wrote on Sep 17, 2010, 09:06:
Which is why this place kills me sometimes. Every single quote that pops up is thrown in the worst light. There's no attempt to figure out why it's said or what it means, it's just assumed to be against the consumer.

Bullshit. Plenty of us do exactly what you're saying there, some of us are even harassed by other users on the site for it. You're focusing on the worst elements of the community and using it as an excuse, quite transparently too.

Why would anyone want to interact with fans if this is what it turns into? Like I said in the Valve thread - better to keep your mouth shut than start that up.

Feel free not to interact with the people who are so obnoxious then. I use the ignore feature, it works well. Do you really think you can force people to adapt your view points? Let me tell you from firsthand experience that it's a lost cause. You are not the voice of wisdom in the void, stop being overly dramatic about your involvement in discussions. You admitted to spouting a wildly unbalanced opinion based on your own agenda, you are no better than what you're criticizing in the first place.

This site and most other communities are just fine, if its so bad then why are you here? If you want a pro-industry wankfest then read more Gamasutra. If you truly gave a shit about those excuses you'd be teaching the truly ignorant on Gamefaqs. You don't fool me.
 
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Playing: Gauntlet, Dark Souls 2, Wasteland 2
Watching: Intruders, 24 Live Another Day, The Signal
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