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18. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 17:06 PHJF
 
USA supplied and funded Britain, France, Soviet Union et al under the Lend Lease Act in 1941. This prompted Germany to start attacking US cargo vessels.

For all intents and purposes, USA ended its neutrality when it enacted Lend Lease.
 
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17. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 16:19  Blue 
 
Okay, my bad for trying to get the last word in before it ends.

Sorry I'll try to stop.

Do or do not... there is no try.

And by that I mean do.
 
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16. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 15:37 LittleMe
 
Damn I want to stop but.. Cant! lol sorry

So what was the USS Greer doing tracking/chasing a U-Boat which was engaged in an active war with England? What were they thinking? "Oh gee there's a U-boat, how cute, lets go chase it!" This is Iceland, not the United States. Was the U-Boat 'en route to New York to attack our port? If so, then maybe our action was justified.

The U-boat was probably trying to sink ships going to England bringing military and other supplies. I remember watching a documentary about this. We were already allied with England before Dec 11 (1941). We were already at war so the fact that Germany declared war on us first doesn't mean they attacked us first. Yes, they attacked private US ships going to England because England was under siege. They knowingly entered hostile waters. We then sent the Navy to protect those ships and thusly, entered the war.

Sorry I'll try to stop.

 
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15. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 15:20 nin
 
Anyway, this has become another of those runaway off-topic discussions

YES.


 
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14. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 15:17  Blue 
 
President Franklin D. Roosevelt announces order to the Navy to "shoot on sight" vessels threatening U.S. shipping or ships under U.S. escort.

Any reason you skipped this part?

"(Sept 4) 1941 - German submarine, U-652, attacks USS Greer, which was tracking the submarine southeast of Iceland. Greer is not damaged, but drops depth charges, damaging U-652."

Anyway, this has become another of those runaway off-topic discussions, so lets just agree to disagree and end it now.
 
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13. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 15:08 LittleMe
 
Here's a web page that shows our navy was possibly engaged with Germany before Dec 11, 1941:

http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/datessep.htm

(Sept 11) 1941 - President Franklin D. Roosevelt announces order to the Navy to "shoot on sight" vessels threatening U.S. shipping or ships under U.S. escort.

I presume we had engaged German navy from this order. Not sure though. I think these ships were supplies going to England, who was engaged with Germany already.
 
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12. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 15:03 LittleMe
 
So your premise is that after Japan attacked the U.S. with no prior declaration of war and then Germany declared war upon the U.S., the U.S. should have ignored them to see if they went away? I think it shouldn't be too hard to see how at the time this would be a "tough sell."

We weren't under attack. You paint the US as innocent and harmless and not the instigator.

Here is Germany's declaration:

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/germany-declares.htm

They claimed they were already under attack by us. Now, I'm not saying Germany was pure and harmless. I am saying that it takes two to tango.

Had Germany succeeded in defeating all of Europe and Russia, what do you picture the next step being?

We never found that out. Hitler's insane military conquest interests were for Europe and Russia (edit: and Africa). Even though we apparently won, the post-war situation was bad for us anyway. You paint a picture that we won. I don't think we did in one important aspect. No one won the war. Everyone lost. Almost everyone anyway. If this, if that.. Endless possibilities with 'ifs'.

I can say that my father was a teenage kid in England during the war. He remembers the bombing and German prisoner soldiers cleaning up the rubble. The war definitely had an impact on him and my family.


Here's one likely reason for our entering the war:

They have passed a new law which allows US servicemen to fight anywhere in the world.

And so it has been ever since. Perpetual war since 1941 (including the cold war).


Here's an interesting page:

Germany on the United States December 11, 1941
Italy on the United States December 11, 1941
The United States on Germany December 11, 1941
The United States on Italy December 11, 1941

So it took us all of less than one day to declare war? That hardly sounds like we were peace loving hippies. Not even a week or a month. No German force landed on our shores for us to declare war. I wonder why. It seems like our government wanted war.

Also did you know that when the Japanese attack was coming to pearl harbor, that the higher-ups knew it was coming (we had a radar installation) but they let it happen so that we could enter the war? It's called theater and population control. Our government is addicted to war.

This comment was edited on May 21, 2010, 15:18.
 
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11. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 13:31  Blue 
 
So your premise is that after Japan attacked the U.S. with no prior declaration of war and then Germany declared war upon the U.S., the U.S. should have ignored them to see if they went away? I think it shouldn't be too hard to see how at the time this would be a "tough sell."

Had Germany succeeded in defeating all of Europe and Russia, what do you picture the next step being?

I understand that there's a strong belief that Roosevelt wanted to join the war, but I think you are bending some facts to suggest that entering World War II can be characterized as U.S. aggression.
 
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10. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 12:25 LittleMe
 
Here's a page that talks about Hitler's hopes to 'force himself upon Americans':

http://www.unmuseum.org/hitlernyc.htm

That page proves, beyond any doubt, that while Germany certainly had the desire to attack us, especially after we were bombing their cities, Nazi Germany was no real threat to America.

This leads us back to my initial contested post here that Hitler never forced himself upon America. We forced ourselves upon Germany and Europe. Whether or not our aggression was justified or not is an entirely different subject.
 
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9. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 12:19 siapnar
 
Can't wait for this game...

Blue wrote on May 21, 2010, 10:47:
While it is certainly important to be fair to Hitler(??)
lol
 
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8. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 12:01 LittleMe
 
It's not too dissimilar to compare with Iraq. They never posed a real threat to our homeland either. In 1990 nor in 2003. Neither did Vietnam pose a real threat to our homeland. Neither did Panama. Neither did Korea. Those are all examples of fear mongering propaganda put into the US public by the media and government.

Neither did, um, trying to think of more American aggression here... Germany in WW1. These are real examples of at the very least, over reacting to foreign threats. More likely, they were examples of corporatism where our government was acting for commercial interests.

 
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7. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 11:49 Verno
 
Hahaha, alright. If nothing else your alternate version of history is at least amusing.  
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6. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 11:46 LittleMe
 
I pretty much do. Roosevelt was a warmongering psychopath as well as Hitler. The major governments of the world were aching for war.

Really, Hitler posed no real danger to the United States. The purpose of the war was more or less to defend England, liberate Europe and defeat Japan.

We'll have to agree to disagree.
 
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5. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 11:40 Verno
 
Oh stop, you can't even defend that man. You're just digging a deeper hole now. You generally do not wait for a country to attack you after they not only declared war but also shown themselves to be incredibly successful at surprise invasions to boot.  
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4. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 11:37 LittleMe
 
While it is certainly important to be fair to Hitler(??), you are incorrect. After Pearl Harbor the U.S. declared war on Japan, and following that, Germany declared war on the U.S.

Sorry i meant to be fair to history, not Hitler.

Okay so he declared war but did he force himself upon America or did we invade Europe? The consensus I understand is that Hitler/Germany posed no real danger to the American homeland.
 
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3. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 10:51 Verno
 
For all of your conspiracy theories about the government LittleMe, your lack of basic history knowledge is a little disconcerting. Though I suppose you can act like some lawyer and claim no correlation between "attack" and "war".  
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2. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 10:47  Blue 
 
Well, to be fair, Hitler didn't attack America. Rather, we forced ourselves upon them.

While it is certainly important to be fair to Hitler(??), you are incorrect. After Pearl Harbor the U.S. declared war on Japan, and following that, Germany declared war on the U.S.
 
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1. Re: Morning Previews May 21, 2010, 10:43 LittleMe
 
Post-war America was a place recovering from the hardships and trials Hitler forced on them,

Well, to be fair, Hitler didn't attack America. Rather, we forced ourselves upon them.

and naturally when there's no great enemy to fight, people will end up fighting each other.

False again. We had Korea and the commies to fight.

Public education here is fail.
 
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